anyone used the "bowl skew"????

[Nate Hawkes]

No, this isn't about somebody using a skew as a bowl scraper, though I've seen it done. I was looking for a new scraper for shear scraping the insides of finish turned bowls--I wanted a powder metal one, but this caught my eye, even though its HSS.
I currently use a 1/2" HSS scraper that I polish with worn sandpaper, then sharpen & use the Veritas scraper burnisher, which works quite well on the outside to let me start at at least 150-180 if the wood is straight grained, but on the inside of bowls, its easy to go a little too deep because the square edge sometimes catches a little on the tool rest. This sounds like a cool idea, but I want others' feedback first. Its made by Crown tools, here's a link:


http://www.crownhandtools.ltd.uk/products/davehoutbowlskews.asp

 

[Charlie Knighton]

no, i have not used that tool

what is the "pack 6" mean????? do you have to buy 6 at a time, or is that what is offered wholesalers??????

 

[Steve Worcester]

what is the "pack 6" mean????? do you have to buy 6 at a time, or is that what is offered wholesalers??????

Wholesale - 6 to a case.

 

[Ed Heuslein]

Well, I can't really tell by the picture but it kinda looks like what Cindy Drozda uses - a wide fluted spindle gouge ground to a negative rake. You can see her using it in her newest video, "Finial Star."

 

[mokol]

the tool is sold by Packard woodworks, inc
mokol

 

[john lucas]

I just use a spindle gouge. Gives the same results.

 

[Nate Hawkes]

the tool is sold by Packard woodworks, inc
mokol

They're actually $5 cheaper at Hartville Tool.


Since I've never used either a negative rake spindle gouge, or a bowl skew, anyone care to elaborate and help out a friend with a new skill??

 

[robo hippy]

Iuse a standard swept back/inside bowl scraper with a fresh burr. I prefer the burr from the grinder to one from burnishing. Have the scraper at a 45 degree angle not flat. I don't know why they don't come with the edges rounded like on most skews. I do a pull cut rather than riding the bevel, and pull up towards the rim. I know this is backwards, but if you do it very gently it works. You have to take several passes to get any marks out. This is not a stock removal cut. It is easier than trying to ride the bevel, and is similar to the outside shear pulling cut. On bigger bowls, turn down an inch or two, shear cut to finish, then turn down some more, and finish shear cut, all the way to the bottom. This is not a stock removing cut, and do not try this with the scraper flat. You will get some obnoxious noises and your bowl will blow up.
robo hippy

 

[Bill Boehme]

Iuse a standard swept back/inside bowl scraper with a fresh burr. I prefer the burr from the grinder to one from burnishing. Have the scraper at a 45 degree angle not flat. I don't know why they don't come with the edges rounded like on most skews. I do a pull cut rather than riding the bevel, and pull up towards the rim. I know this is backwards, but if you do it very gently it works. You have to take several passes to get any marks out. This is not a stock removal cut. It is easier than trying to ride the bevel, and is similar to the outside shear pulling cut. On bigger bowls, turn down an inch or two, shear cut to finish, then turn down some more, and finish shear cut, all the way to the bottom. This is not a stock removing cut, and do not try this with the scraper flat. You will get some obnoxious noises and your bowl will blow up.
robo hippy

Well you are actually doing it the correct way. Also, scrapers do not have a bevel to ride. If you were to try to ride the relief of a scraper, making a push cut on the inside of a bowl it would be a wild ride followed quickly by no more bowl.

 

[MichaelMouse]

It's basically half of a large-radius gouge, so I guess you could say I use it all the time. You can get a look at how it's used here. http://s108.photobucket.com/albums/n28/MichaelMouse/?action=view&current=CherryPeelIn.flv Since I have the other side, rather than a flat, I can even use them on the outside. http://s108.photobucket.com/albums/n28/MichaelMouse/?action=view&current=CherryPeelOut.flv

Available as forged gouges at Lee Valley. Others call them "continental" gouges. They give a lot of bevel to steady on when skewed, so the flat side to ride isn't really necessary.

 

[Nate Hawkes]

Iuse a standard swept back/inside bowl scraper with a fresh burr. I prefer the burr from the grinder to one from burnishing. Have the scraper at a 45 degree angle not flat. I don't know why they don't come with the edges rounded like on most skews. I do a pull cut rather than riding the bevel, and pull up towards the rim. I know this is backwards, but if you do it very gently it works. You have to take several passes to get any marks out. This is not a stock removal cut. It is easier than trying to ride the bevel, and is similar to the outside shear pulling cut. On bigger bowls, turn down an inch or two, shear cut to finish, then turn down some more, and finish shear cut, all the way to the bottom. This is not a stock removing cut, and do not try this with the scraper flat. You will get some obnoxious noises and your bowl will blow up.
robo hippy

This sounds like what I'm doing now. And yes, I have blown up a few bowls before realizing that you can't put a big wide scraper down flat and take cuts on the rim.....

The turn a little, finish a little method works very well, but sometimes I end up with an almost waviness to the interior cut that I think will just come in time. I've only been turning a few years.

 

[Nate Hawkes]

It's basically half of a large-radius gouge, so I guess you could say I use it all the time. You can get a look at how it's used here. http://s108.photobucket.com/albums/n28/MichaelMouse/?action=view&current=CherryPeelIn.flv Since I have the other side, rather than a flat, I can even use them on the outside. http://s108.photobucket.com/albums/n28/MichaelMouse/?action=view&current=CherryPeelOut.flv

Available as forged gouges at Lee Valley. Others call them "continental" gouges. They give a lot of bevel to steady on when skewed, so the flat side to ride isn't really necessary.

Nice videos. It may be the angle of the light, but it seems like you pull a thicker shaving than I realized with the skewed gouge. The turning club I belong to gets a discount at one of the suppliers, so I'm trying to see if its worth it to pick up these tools. The scrapers I use for shear cuts are getting shorter every day. The two vids used different tools, yes?? Also, what exactly did you mean that you have the other side rather than a flat? Is the Lee Valley tool rounded on the bottom for the entire shank? I could see that on one, the shank just pas the tang was definitely round, but I couldn't see the entire profile of the tool.
Thanks!

 

[robo hippy]

boehme,
Actually, a scraper does have a bevel, as does any cutting tool, and I have one small one that that is swept back in an inside scraper arc, that I use to go across the bottom of the bowl by riding the bevel, cutting with the lower edge/point of the tool. Bevels can be any angle. Most gouges are in the 45 to 75 degree range, and most scrapers have a steeper angle in the 60 to 75 degree range. For my bevel riding scraper cut across the bottom of a bowl, I would not use a round nose or outside scraper because you would be cutting on the high side of the tool which is dangerous for catches, because the leverage advantage goes to the tool. Cuts with any tool can be done by riding the bevel, which is most common with skews and gouges. Also, they can be done without riding the bevel as in shear pulling cuts with a gouge or scraper, planing/peeling cuts with a skew bedan, beading and parting tools, or roughing scraping cuts with a scraper.
robo hippy

 

[rsser]

Vic Wood used to shape the wings of his amazing lidded boxes by cutting with a scraper riding on the bevel IIRC.

But to be fair that's cutting, not scraping, and so the tool needs another name.

 

[Bill Boehme]

boehme,
Actually, a scraper does have a bevel, as does any cutting tool, ......

I agree that cutting tools do "ride the bevel", but a scraper is not a cutting tool ... hence the name "scraper". A scraper has a relief angle that you are calling a bevel (which it is NOT) ... and you should not ride the scraper's relief cut or "bevel" because it can lead to a very serious dig-in that will almost certainly destroy the bowl that you are working on. The purpose of the relief is so that nothing except the bur ever touches the wood. If you will reread the previous issue of American Woodturner where Alan Lacer talks about scraper burs, he explains that along with explaining why a pulled bur will give a finer cut than the rough edge left by a grinder ... which, in my opinion, isn't so much a bur as it is just a build up of metal particles that break away very quickly once the tool touches the wood. Under a microscope, the so called bur from the grinder is more like teeth on a saw than an edge and that is why you may find it easier to use since you do not need to be quite as precise in your technique to use a sawtooth edge as you would need to be if using a knife edge. Pulling a good bur is not difficult, but it does require some practice and it helps a great deal if someone who has expertise in this area actually shows you how it is done. I suspect that most people who have trouble with cutting after trying to pull a bur are probably applying far too much pressure with their burnishing tool and, as a result, are actually curling the bur over so that it can't possibly cut.

...... and I have one small one that that is swept back in an inside scraper arc, that I use to go across the bottom of the bowl by riding the bevel, cutting with the lower edge/point of the tool......

Are you saying that you are turning the tool upside down and then scraping with the bottom edge (the edge that protrudes out further)?? Please tell me that I misunderstood what you are saying.

The reason that a round nose scraper is not the best one for the inside of a bowl is that you can only safely use the left side without getting into some really weird tool positions.

 

[Bill Boehme]

Vic Wood used to shape the wings of his amazing lidded boxes by cutting with a scraper riding on the bevel IIRC.

But to be fair that's cutting, not scraping, and so the tool needs another name.

That would make it essentially a flat gouge. But you would not want to have a bur on it since a sharp cutting edge is necessary to prevent simply scraping the wood.

 

[rsser]

No, I haven't tried it but I agree, I'd take the burr off.

Farrance's study of spindle gouges - wet ground and honed v. dry ground - found by the way that the burr was in fact very difficult to remove from the dry ground gouge. An extract of the study is on the Tormek website.

 

[Vaughn]

I'm sorry, but I just find it amusing to see someone try to explain to Robo he's doing it wrong. Seems to me that after the first few thousand bowls, if he's happy with how his method works, then it's not wrong, regardless of what the "experts" might think.

 

[MichaelMouse]

Nice videos. It may be the angle of the light, but it seems like you pull a thicker shaving than I realized with the skewed gouge. The turning club I belong to gets a discount at one of the suppliers, so I'm trying to see if its worth it to pick up these tools. The scrapers I use for shear cuts are getting shorter every day. The two vids used different tools, yes?? Also, what exactly did you mean that you have the other side rather than a flat? Is the Lee Valley tool rounded on the bottom for the entire shank? I could see that on one, the shank just pas the tang was definitely round, but I couldn't see the entire profile of the tool.
Thanks!

Shavings depend on the quality of the wood and the edge, as well as operator impatience. With the cherry you can take thin or thick, and, depending on the skew angle(s) broad or narrow. http://i35.photobucket.com/albums/d160/GoodOnesGone/Forged-in-Use.jpg When turning a tight corner you get wire wool, when roughing green wood shavings can be a half inch wide and fairly thick to boot. The inside turn video uses a lesser width gouge than the outside, held at a greater skew angle so as to minimize ridging. It's also one of my 30 year carbon gouges. The radius, or "sweep" is about the same.

The Hout tool is flat on the side which rides the rest, and skewed slightly aft, making it sort of a "half" gouge. I put the skew in myself rather than let the grind do it. It's easily done because the tool is ground at a constant bevel and is a consistent thickness, so I don't rub the heel on a thick part, and I don't roll and catch on a steeper bevel angle ground on the wing.

Carbon on the left, HSS and a little longer bevel right. http://i35.photobucket.com/albums/d160/GoodOnesGone/Bevels.jpg

You can see the in cutting position by the shape of the wood being cut in this picture. http://i35.photobucket.com/albums/d160/GoodOnesGone/Peeling-Outside.jpg The hair on the uplift portion of the grain shows you how little you actually lift to dislodge the shaving. It's almost all slide and shear.

 

[Bill Boehme]

I'm sorry, but I just find it amusing to see someone try to explain to Robo he's doing it wrong. Seems to me that after the first few thousand bowls, if he's happy with how his method works, then it's not wrong, regardless of what the "experts" might think.

I am glad that you are amused -- we all need to smile more. See emoticon --> Smiles are contagious -- now, I am also amused. No need to apologize for being amused. The experts haven't chimed in yet, so we don't know what they think.

The point of contention is the difference between a cutting and scraping tool and not his technique. In fact, in my first post in this thread, I stated that he was doing a shear scrape the correct way. In my last post, I was asking for clarification on how he is using the tool since my interpretation of his post sounded like the tool was being flipped upside down so that the sharp edge was on the bottom. I can't image how that would do much more than create dust unless he is using it on the upswing side of the bowl. Without a solid fulcrum, that would be a bit dicey.

 

[john lucas]

I sharpen my scrapers at 45 degree angle. If I polished off the burr and rode the bevel (handle down) on my roundnose scraper I would essentially have a bowl skew. I don't know the angle on a bowls skew, probably a little less than 45 degrees but I've never had one in my hands.
I use my round nose scraper with a burr and the handle held higher than the cutting edge (no bevel rubbing) consequently it's a scraper when used like this.

 

[robo hippy]

I don't know if I can clear up this or not without showing it on film which is beyond my skill level on a computer now.

First, I think there is a misconception about scraping cuts, and shear cuts. You can scrape with any tool/cutting edge out there, gouges included. You can also shear cut with any tool/cutting edge out there. The difference is in how the cutting edge is presented to the wood. Flat, or at 90 degrees to the rotation of the wood, you are scraping. At a 45 degree angle, you are shear cutting. Then there comes the cuts where you are riding the bevel, or not. Scraping cuts are for heavy stock removal, shear cuts are for fine/touch up work. You can ride the bevel of a gouge for a finish cut (push cut) and actually remove some stock, or you can drop the handle and not ride the bevel for a shear cut which is only for touch up work. This is a pulling cut, and the same cut can be done with a scraper.

I can ride the bevel of an inside scraper across the bottom of a bowl at a shear angle. The bevel angle on my scrapers is the same as my bottom of the bowl gouge, about 70 degrees or so. I am not scraping, I am shear cutting, and get a nice clean tear out free cut with lots of little whispy shaving floating in the air. Well, actually, my shavings don't float because all my bowl turning is with green wood. Perhaps it would help to think of an inside scraper being used this way as being half of a gouge going across the bottom of the bowl.

I can ride the bevel of my scraper on a spindle. The only difference between it and a skew is that the bevel is much more blunt than a skew, but it works. If I come up off the bevel, I can get the same spiral dig in that you get with a skew. If I rotate it farther, I can shear cut without the bevel in contact with the wood. I have found this cut to be great for spindles that have wavy grain and the skew is tearing it up in spots.

I have never understood the term 'shear scrape'. Just because you are using a scraper, it doesn't mean you are doing a scraping cut. If it is flat on the tool rest, you are scraping. If you have it at a 45 degree angle, you are shear cutting while using a scraper, not shear scraping.

I guess when you use a scraper for a scraping cut, the ground away part under the cutting edge could be considered a 'relief' cut. But, then when you use a gouge on its side for a scraping cut, wouldn't the grind/bevel also be a relief cut? Or when you drop the handle and roll it over and shear cut without riding the bevel, would it then be a relief cut?

To me, it is a bevel no matter how you use it, and it can be used many ways.

robo hippy