• We just finished moving the forums to a new hosting server. It looks like everything is functioning correctly but if you find a problem please report it in the Forum Technical Support Forum (click here) or email us at forum_moderator AT aawforum.org. Thanks!
  • Beware of Counterfeit Woodturning Tools (click here for details)
  • Johnathan Silwones is starting a new AAW chapter, Southern Alleghenies Woodturners, in Johnstown, PA. (click here for details)
  • Congratulations to Dave Roberts for "2 Hats" being selected as Turning of the Week for April 22, 2024 (click here for details)
  • Welcome new registering member. Your username must be your real First and Last name (for example: John Doe). "Screen names" and "handles" are not allowed and your registration will be deleted if you don't use your real name. Also, do not use all caps nor all lower case.

Creativity or Skill?

John Van Domelen

Retired Forum Admin
Joined
Mar 19, 2007
Messages
340
Likes
1
Location
Houston, TX
Creativity or Skill?

Which do you find easier?

For me, I have all these ideas that pop outta my head.

I have to keep a sketch pad beside the bed so I can sketch them when I wake up - or they are gone.

It is frustrating that as a fairly newbie turner, I lack the skills needed to execute many of these designs.

Just curious about how it is for others.
 
Joined
Aug 8, 2005
Messages
284
Likes
1
Location
Ballard (Seattle) WA and Volcano, Hawaii....on top
Jovan,

Fun question. I am a pretty new turner as well. (turning about 2 years, but very little time to do it)

I also have lots of ideas, and to some extent I have the skills, but have not yet reached a point where I can translate what is in my head reliably to the wood.

I can control my tools well. I can make cuts that are smooth and don't tear. I don't catch often at all. I can make a curve that I see in my mind and can recognize when I am not quite there. In other words, I have a decent level of control over the mechanics of my tools. But I am very aware that I still think more about a tool's use and have not reached a point where that control has moved to what I like to think of as a lower level of conciousness, a control that involves active awareness less and less. As I reach that point I hope I can concentrate more on what combining what a piece of wood has to offer with what I would like to see from the wood and concentrate less on the mechanics. That will come with time.

A parallel step of course, is to be able to envision forms that are actually pleasing. I need to learn to visualize shapes that work well and make the best use of what a piece of wood has to offer. Again, a matter of time and practice and the development of my own creativity.

This analogy is a bit flawed, but it works for me. I remember when I was young and learning to drive a car or a motorcycle. At first my attention would focus on 1 thing to the exclusion of others. My eyes were tightly focused on a point of the road just a few feet in front of me. Breaking involved a complete shift of focus that took away from steering and turn signals. Beginners tunnel vision if you will. Thankfully I am well past that point in my turning and my driving.

Then I moved to a stage where I was coordinating all the steps of driving pretty well. I could relax a bit and have my eyes looking a bit further down the road. It took less focused attention to turn, brake, signal, avoid obstacles, etc. I was getting mechanically better at these skills but still had to focus on the mechanics to do it right. My skills were still largely controlled at a concious level. This is probably where I am at as a turner right now. Competant with my tools, but still very concious of what I am doing with the tools.

As I progressed as a driver the mechanical skills moved lower and lower in my conciousness until now I can negotiate a crowded highway at speed, relaxed yet alert. My attention is way down the road and out on the periphery of my vision, and on my latte of course. And all this without careening into other cars!! But, while my mechanical skills have now moved almost into subconcious control, I have still not achieved the epitomy of driving art. I haven't learned to subconciously do all this while executing graceful and sinuous curves in and out of my lane between other cars, speeding gracefully down the highway. This is the level of skill I might strive for in turning.....for my mechanical skills to be relegated largely to the subconcious, allowing my mind to focus on translating what my mind sees through my hands and into the wood, combining that vision with a keen sense of what the wood lends itself to.

At that point, hopefully I will have a developed a sense of shape and form that gives me intense satisfaction while attracting others helplessly to my pieces like moths to a flame. <really big grin> or at the very least I will hopefully have developed a sense of shape and form that makes me happy and doesn't trigger gag reflexes in others.

And for those of you who have developed great concern while reading this, I drive on the Big Island of Hawaii, and I have no desire to achieve the drivers art that I described. <grin>

It will be interesting to see how others see themselves in terms of their skills and their progression in turning.

Dave
 

hockenbery

Forum MVP
Beta Tester
TOTW Team
Joined
Apr 27, 2004
Messages
8,636
Likes
4,976
Location
Lakeland, Florida
Website
www.hockenberywoodturning.com
I'll risk a generalization

Artists who become turners seem to do terrific and innovative work short amount of time.

Turners who train at turning seem to struggle with creating new work.

When I consider the two turners I admire most.
One is exceptionally creative with half a dozen well known unique pieces and is an accomplished turner but not exceptional.
One may be the most accomplished bowl turner on earth. I've never seen him do anything truly original but what he does he does better than anyone else.

I have great respect for both!

happy turning,
Al
 

john lucas

AAW Forum Expert
Joined
Apr 26, 2004
Messages
8,335
Likes
3,590
Location
Cookeville, TN
I find that you do get a little bit of both. I will agree with Al, the most unique work I see come from creative people who may or may not be that skilled.
I have always admired Stephen Hogbin because he developes a piece and then works out the way to build it. Along the way his skills have improved a lot. Some of the works I admire don't actually require that much skill. Clay Foster is extremely skilled but some of pieces could be built by a less skilled turner. The creativity behind them however is excellent.
Who can argue that top notch segmented work takes a huge amount of skill but how many pieces are considered truely creative. Very well done, beautiful to look at and the forms might be exquisite but they aren't that original. I'm not picking on segmented turners I an envious of their skills I'm just using that as one example of how skill and creativity can conflict. Malcom Tibbets has taken the reins for the segmented turners and is producing some very creative work.
 
Joined
Apr 3, 2007
Messages
60
Likes
0
Location
Elgin, IL
I think you can teach skill, but not creativity.

Agreed, mostly. Creativity cannot be taught, but it can be uncovered and focussed. As a teacher of English and theatre, I would have students do exercises, mostly in theatre, that would require students use their right (creative/alogical) brains rather than the logical, linear-thinking left brains.
That said, having the eye for form, for line, is, I believe, in-born. Everyone is able to appreciate and enjoy certain shapes once they are created, but not everyone is able to produce them without a pattern.
 
Joined
May 29, 2004
Messages
995
Likes
2
Location
billerica, ma
Though skill is much easier to teach, you can teach creativity also. Plenty of folks out there doing workshops on breaking out of the box, and learning to be aware of and confident in your creativity. For some, it comes quite naturally. For others, it is a longer and more painful/difficult process.

The opposite is also true, that some folks are easily creative but total ham hands when it comes to skill. We're just lots more used to working from that end than from the skilled but needs teaching in creativity direction.

Just a humble opinion,
dk
 
Joined
Dec 8, 2006
Messages
192
Likes
0
Creativity or Skill?

Which do you find easier?

For me, I have all these ideas that pop outta my head.

I have to keep a sketch pad beside the bed so I can sketch them when I wake up - or they are gone.

It is frustrating that as a fairly newbie turner, I lack the skills needed to execute many of these designs.

Just curious about how it is for others.

I seem to be happiest and proudest when I have learned the skills that I need to execute an idea, shape, project, cabinet, garden design, or whatever that I can't get out of my head.
 
Joined
Apr 24, 2004
Messages
745
Likes
0
Location
Cowlesville,Western New York
Creativity is an innate quality or gift. But it does need nurturing either by self or from outside. Technique on the other hand needs to be learned, either by instruction or by doing, over and over. Go to any instant gallery and you will see examples of both and a few that combine both. JMHO:)
 
Joined
Dec 15, 2006
Messages
328
Likes
2
Location
Sierra Foothills
I have NEVER successfully produced an original design exactly the way I wanted it to be on the first, second, ... try. You've got to keep trying, failing, and trying again. Sometimes I'll work on a design and find the effort to be an exercise in futility. No matter how hard I try, it just doesn't work. I put the idea away, turn and learn for a few weeks, come back to it and "whamo", it works. The ability to create, while I believe it can be developed if the innate talent is dormant, cannot be learned. You've either go it or you ain't. If you enjoy turning, just keep at it. In time you'll be amazed at what you'll be able to do. It always helps to get "hands on" training through an accomplished mentor. Even if it's only for an hour or two. Best-O-Luck.
 

Steve Worcester

Admin Emeritus
Joined
Apr 9, 2004
Messages
2,693
Likes
96
Location
Plano, Texas
Website
www.turningwood.com
Though skill is much easier to teach, you can teach creativity also. Plenty of folks out there doing workshops on breaking out of the box, and learning to be aware of and confident in your creativity. For some, it comes quite naturally. For others, it is a longer and more painful/difficult process.

The opposite is also true, that some folks are easily creative but total ham hands when it comes to skill. We're just lots more used to working from that end than from the skilled but needs teaching in creativity direction.

Just a humble opinion,
dk

I don't know, I think if it ain't there, all the fostering and focusing won't help... maybe I will recant this later.
 
Joined
Apr 11, 2007
Messages
628
Likes
2
Location
Northwest Arkansas
Creativity

Steve and dkulze,
I think you're both right, in different degrees. I believe everyone can learn to be more creative than they are now. Maybe by becoming more technically proficient to the point where someone else mentioned that they can stop thinking about how to and just do. Or maybe by having someone show them different things they can do with the medium that might not have occurred to them.

I do think, however, that the most creative folks have it built in, and have learned how to listen to it, and that's what drives their pursuit to polish the technical skills so they can make what is in their head.

IMHO
KurtB
 

john lucas

AAW Forum Expert
Joined
Apr 26, 2004
Messages
8,335
Likes
3,590
Location
Cookeville, TN
Do you ever run into this problem. I wish I could do that but I don't have the tool/skill. When I look back some of my best pieces were designed and built mostly because I didn't know I couldn't. In other words I used whatever tools and skills I had to produce the piece.
It's so very easy to say I wish I had the skills to do that when in reality you probably do if you just slow down and figure out how. You might not do it the same way as someone with lots of tools and skills but you might surprise yourself.
How does this relate to creativity. The same way. You tell yourself I can't do it, or I'm not creative. I see some remarkable pieces created for our club show and tell by people who claim they aren't creative. When you limit the resources and topics and ask them to come up with something to win the club contest it's just amazing to see.
When we have a contest it might be something as simple as a lidded box or christmas ornament. Everyone knows what one looks like but they want to come up with something that might win the contest. They put their brain in gear and see what they can add or change to make it their box or their ornament. I'm always amazed at the imagination and creativity.
 
Joined
Nov 7, 2005
Messages
882
Likes
2
Location
Wimberley, Texas
Something In Between?

Is there something in between skill and creativity? Creativity suggests the ability to visualize something a bit new and/or different. Am thinking of what Dean Carrier calls "artistic vision", except for him it's probably about the same as "creativity". But for some of us, what I now call artistic vision is as simple as the ability to see that a piece does not have a smoothly contiinuously varying curvature, and to fix it. That same curvature has been turned many thousands of times by many turners, so it isn't creative. But sometimes it takes a little "artistic vision" to make it a smooth curve, vs. a kinky curve. Does this make sense to anyone? Just wondering.
 
Joined
Apr 24, 2004
Messages
745
Likes
0
Location
Cowlesville,Western New York
Is there something in between skill and creativity? Creativity suggests the ability to visualize something a bit new and/or different. Am thinking of what Dean Carrier calls "artistic vision", except for him it's probably about the same as "creativity". But for some of us, what I now call artistic vision is as simple as the ability to see that a piece does not have a smoothly contiinuously varying curvature, and to fix it. That same curvature has been turned many thousands of times by many turners, so it isn't creative. But sometimes it takes a little "artistic vision" to make it a smooth curve, vs. a kinky curve. Does this make sense to anyone? Just wondering.

Texian, I think you are doing both, nurturing creativity and developing technique. It could be argued that it is just improving your technique, but seeing that curve in relation to the whole piece is part and parcel of creativity.
 
Joined
May 29, 2004
Messages
995
Likes
2
Location
billerica, ma
Like anything else, we all have our built in limitations. Just as some folks have a more limited range of creativity in certain areas, some have a limited range of skill that they can learn. As Kurt said, we all got some of it, whatever it is. The trick is to find what you have the most of, and to make the most of what you've got less of.

Seems to me, other than the straightforward passing of information, the development of our potential is what most teaching is.

And final comment. Creativity isn't just coming up with something new and stunning. It can be expressed quite well within very tight and uniform bounds, like the turner mentioned early on who does nothing but bowls, but does them spectacularly. I'd call that creativity, as much as skill.

Now artistry vs. craft. That's a whole new thread.

dk
 
Joined
May 4, 2004
Messages
230
Likes
11
Location
Schenectady, NY
Interesting thread !

I think I understand where a lot of people are coming from. I am a left-brain-dominant person-linear, literal, technical. I don't feel very creative or artistic most of the time. I have reasonable skills in turning but have yet to find my own creativity. Every once in a while I will have some kind of flash or burst of an idea, and if I manage to remember it, most of the time I can execute it. I have been to many demos and symposia watching creative people do their thing. I don't necessarily want to do what they do, but I do want to be inspired by them. I'm not the guy coming up with the new ideas and I'm OK with that. I'm also quite happy when I turn a nice piece and get the shape just the way I want it. I'm even happier when I show it to someone who understands design and they like it too. I think we all have some inherent gut feeling of what looks good even if we can't verbalize why. The human eye/mind usually can tell if things are "right" or not. We just need to pay attention to our "inner voice". I've also helped teach in several workshops and classes with various clubs and turners. Not everyone learns the same way. Some get it and some struggle. You have to want to learn and work at it. I also think this relates to the "craft vs art" debate. I think you need to know the craft in order to be an artist, like the old saying "you have to know the rules before you can break them". But you can be a good (or great) craftsperson without having to be an artist. Getting an idea from your mind to come out through your hands is much easier for some than for others.

I struggle with design. I should measure for proportions-I don't. I should keep a sketch/idea book-I don't. I'd like to take a real design course. Our local university has a good art dept. They offer a 3D design course. It's expensive and hugely time consuming. Would it help me grow in my work-sure. Am I willing to commit that kind of time and resources-not right now. But someday !

Sorry for the rambling response. Can you tell this thread struck a chord with me ?
 
Joined
Apr 24, 2004
Messages
745
Likes
0
Location
Cowlesville,Western New York
left.....or......right

Cindy Drozda and David Nittmann, did a presentation on this theme at Provo this year. Cindy being left oriented, measured, precise design, etc. David, design in mind, just winged it from the right side. Both are very creative and technically proficient. I hope they continue to develop this theme it is, in my view, worth exploring.
 
Joined
Apr 11, 2007
Messages
628
Likes
2
Location
Northwest Arkansas
Creativity

Don,
I think you hit on an important note when you spoke about you and your friend recognizing when something 'looks right'. I've been a trim carpenter for many years, and often my customers will say to me that they don't know what is right and what isn't.

My response is: Sure you do! You have been looking at trim, and design in your house and others for years. I think the same thing applies here. We have all been looking at pottery, bowls, vases etc. for a long time. All we have to do, in many cases, is look at these same objects for our inspiration.
Many of the national turners use nature as their inspiration, and we can do the same. And if we can get the piece of wood to help and complement our design, then I think we can give ourselves a well-deserved pat on the back.

What do you think?

KurtB
 
Joined
Nov 7, 2005
Messages
882
Likes
2
Location
Wimberley, Texas
Thanks Jake and DK. Am indeed working on my lack of artistic vision, creativity, etc. For example, it is remarkable what very subtle changes can do to improve the overall look and quality of a piece, when one can see the need and make the changes. By subtle I mean maybe 1/32" here and there. Nothing wrong with copying others in order to learn and improve. Just try to "copy" Osolnik's (hope that's right) famous hourglass shapes. His were wonderful, and mine are not quite so wonderful, but the effort has helped me improve one of those things discussed here.
 
Joined
May 4, 2004
Messages
230
Likes
11
Location
Schenectady, NY
I agree Kurt

Inspiration is all around us if we just look. It takes time and a desire to look thoroughly. My wife is a potter and we look at objects and the world in similar ways. We had a chance to look through David Nittman's idea book at a symposium and it's incredible what he puts in there. I/we should do the same. The simple act of taking the time and effort to select something that grabs you and record it can help get it into your mind where it may just pop out later.

And you are right when you say we have all been looking at these things all our lives. The question becomes do we really "see" them. Do we take the time to notice the proportions, the dynamics, the balance, the harmony, etc. Powerful design concepts/elements that most of us take for granted.

I think we all have some inherent creativity. We just need to find it and nurture it. It may not come out where we want it though. I would have liked to be musical-I tried-I'm not. I tried regular flat woodworking-not very good. I found turning and I can be somewhat successful. At least it allows me to do something relatively creative and constructive with my mind and my time. Everything that comes off my lathe is my "creation" and it gives me a sense of satisfaction I may not get from other parts of my life.

I've enjoyed this thread very much. I don't usually respond much on the websites I visit, but this one has reminded me to "see" instead of just look.
 

hockenbery

Forum MVP
Beta Tester
TOTW Team
Joined
Apr 27, 2004
Messages
8,636
Likes
4,976
Location
Lakeland, Florida
Website
www.hockenberywoodturning.com
Cindy Drozda and David Nittmann, did a presentation on this theme at Provo this year. Cindy being left oriented, measured, precise design, etc. David, design in mind, just winged it from the right side. Both are very creative and technically proficient. I hope they continue to develop this theme it is, in my view, worth exploring.

Cindy and David will do a similar presentation twice at the AAW symposium in Richmond. there will be about a dozen other presentations on inspiration, creativity, and design.

What differentiates humans from the tool using animals is our ability to problem solve and put abstract ideas into physical form.
We all have some degree of creativity. I think positive reinforcement and coaching bring out creativity while negative feedback stifles it.
the old "color between the lines" theme or the poem Frank Sudol used to recite about the colors of flowers......

happy turninT
 
Last edited:
Joined
Apr 29, 2004
Messages
576
Likes
2
Location
Hanover, VA
Website
www.abhats.com
I think there's a dimension missing in this thread that is different than creativity or technique - it's form (includes shape, color and texture). Form can be learned, but can also be intuitive, but is essential to creating pieces that 'look' right. Doesn't matter how good your technique is, without knowing form, you'll make clunky salad bowls or whatever. Ditto creativity - just having the ability to create something unique doesn't make it attractive. Not enough effort is spent considering how colors contrast or complement or how too many differing textures make something look busy in many pieces I've seen, much less on an actual shape of something. This is all basic Art 101 stuff that many folks don't seem to think they should learn.
 
Joined
Feb 7, 2005
Messages
173
Likes
1
Location
Jacksonville, AR
What we see isn't always what we get

I have found that even though I am artistically challenged I have been able to learn more about what is pleasing by paying attention at different shapes everywhere I go. No matter if it is a museum or gallery or deptartment store I look at the lamps, vases, and other shapes.

I have found one thing though is that while turning I think I have the right shape looking at it between centers but when i take it off it dosen't look the same vertical as horziontal, BUMMER. I think the true artist has the eye for it but I also think that most of us can develop at least a modicum of talent by just looking around us in our daily lives and observing what is there. Most artists I have heard tell how they observe things in nature. We can and should learn from this.

Vernon
 
Joined
Aug 8, 2005
Messages
284
Likes
1
Location
Ballard (Seattle) WA and Volcano, Hawaii....on top
I have found one thing though is that while turning I think I have the right shape looking at it between centers but when i take it off it dosen't look the same vertical as horziontal, BUMMER.

Vernon

Vernon,

I have the same problem, and until my brain learns to see things correctly sideways I have found taking the time to take the item off the lathe and look at it upright helps a bunch. This is much easier when it is chucked or faceplated of course.

Dave
 
Joined
May 16, 2005
Messages
3,540
Likes
15
Vernon,

I have the same problem, and until my brain learns to see things correctly sideways I have found taking the time to take the item off the lathe and look at it upright helps a bunch. This is much easier when it is chucked or faceplated of course.

Dave

Ah, the wonder of digital photography to the rescue. Photo, rotate, from under, from over (better lighting, too!) and then give 'er a look after a 90 degree rotation.

Keeps you from getting a crick in the neck, too.
 
Joined
Nov 7, 2005
Messages
882
Likes
2
Location
Wimberley, Texas
Walt,
Thank you. That's exactly what I meant by something between skill and creativity.

With ref. to couple previous posts, consider leaning over and looking at it sideways, or get on a ladder and look straight down. I am NOT trying to be facetious here. Just try it. Another thought someone posted a while back is to consider if the shape (am starting to dislike the word "form") looks as good upside down as it does right side up, then it is ok. This actually works. Just a couple thoughts.
 

john lucas

AAW Forum Expert
Joined
Apr 26, 2004
Messages
8,335
Likes
3,590
Location
Cookeville, TN
Someone sent a tip in several years ago about mounting a video camera sideways above the lathe. Attached to a TV or monitor the image would appear upright so you could see your piece as it would look on the shelf.
Much easier to simply take it off the lathe and look at it. You do get used to working sideways. I shot 4x5 and 8x10 view cameras for years. The image was upside down and backwards. you learn to work with the compositions to the point that you don't even realize your looking at the image upside down and backwards.
 

Bill Boehme

Administrator
Staff member
Beta Tester
TOTW Team
Joined
Jan 27, 2005
Messages
12,897
Likes
5,184
Location
Dalworthington Gardens, TX
Website
pbase.com
Creativity or Skill?

Which do you find easier?

For me, I have all these ideas that pop outta my head.

I have to keep a sketch pad beside the bed so I can sketch them when I wake up - or they are gone.

It is frustrating that as a fairly newbie turner, I lack the skills needed to execute many of these designs.

Just curious about how it is for others.

That is sort of an apples or oranges question since they are different things that are neither exclusive of each other nor are they competing forces -- things work best when they go hand-in-hand as complementary aspects of the same thing. I am hoping that I will grow in both aspects. The people who I know who have an ample amount of either, also seem to have a good supply of both.
 

Bill Boehme

Administrator
Staff member
Beta Tester
TOTW Team
Joined
Jan 27, 2005
Messages
12,897
Likes
5,184
Location
Dalworthington Gardens, TX
Website
pbase.com
Last edited:
Joined
Nov 7, 2005
Messages
882
Likes
2
Location
Wimberley, Texas
What was the question again? Oh yeah, which is easier? It was, like, a poll to see who has more of which. Presumably that of which one has more is easier to apply. One must have the will to do the work necessary to improve that of which one has less.

Smooth curves today. Tomorrow, ART.
 

Bill Boehme

Administrator
Staff member
Beta Tester
TOTW Team
Joined
Jan 27, 2005
Messages
12,897
Likes
5,184
Location
Dalworthington Gardens, TX
Website
pbase.com
What was the question again? Oh yeah, which is easier? It was, like, a poll to see who has more of which. Presumably that of which one has more is easier to apply. One must have the will to do the work necessary to improve that of which one has less.

I couldn't have said it better myself (or perhaps, better that I shouldn't say that, myself).
 
Joined
Feb 21, 2005
Messages
59
Likes
1
Location
Topsfield, MA. USA.
For me neither is harder, but connecting the two is the issue for me

When I look at a piece of wood I have really interesting pictures inside my head of what should happen. But getting from the visualization to a roughed and then finished piece is often problematic. I'll admit that much of the time its a skill that isn't yet there. One miss with a tool and I get to visualize a plan B. Next miss brings plan C, then D, and then E. Usually plan F is a couple of spinning tops. Sometimes finding out that the wood doesn't want to be what I wanted it to be is a contributing factor. This happens when a inclusion appears where it wasn't supposed to be, or a unique grain pattern shows up, or any of the other things that happen with wood. When this happens a little on the fly creativity is helpful and often rewarded.

The constant challenge and frequent rewards, although unpredictable, is a big part what draws me to wood turning. The other draw is lots of really cool tools!

Jeff
 

John Van Domelen

Retired Forum Admin
Joined
Mar 19, 2007
Messages
340
Likes
1
Location
Houston, TX
Interesting thread

"Usually plan F is a couple of spinning tops."

- Boy can I relate to this statement - been there, got the T-shirt and the keychain... :D

"The other draw is lots of really cool tools!"

- So true ... :cool2:
 
Back
Top