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Roadside wood: Free or felony?

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Pennsylvania Dept of Trans has been cutting down a lot of trees by the side of one of our major highways here in Amish Country. There are a couple largish trunk sections remaining at the cut sites mocking me every time I drive by.

I emailed PennDot but that went nowhere. Does anyone know the PA law on this? Finders keepers? Is it theft? :confused:
 
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Last I checked with TXDOT (and yours may vary), I am not allowed to cut trees down myself (even dead ones). The way I interpreted it is that if it is down, I can take it. I did several times and a few times some Trooper passed me by while collecting and had no problems. I am cutting them to smaller pieces with a CS too.

At any rate, you will be better off checking with your DOT first.

One thing I will stress (if you are granted) is that you park on a safe place (as far from traffic as possible). Zooming cars and trucks are scary!!!
 
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Kenneth Hertzog said:
If you obtain a permit they will mark the tree and you can remove only that which is marked. The good point is by the time you get it marked it will be spalted.
Or, more likely, by the time anyone gets around to marking it it'll have been taken by someone who doesn't give a rat's patootie about the law and is just looking for free firewood :p

Guess I'll call PennDot and see if I can navigate their voice mail labyrinth.
 

Bill Grumbine

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Kenneth Hertzog said:
It is theft as well as treaspass. If you obtain a permit they will mark the tree and you can remove only that which is marked. The good point is by the time you get it marked it will be spalted. GOOD LUCK
ken

I always talk to both the landowner and the people cutting the wood. If I get an okay from both, then everything is fine. I don't think you will get very far with PennDOT though. Most of the workers I have met have been rude. The central soviet is probably not going to be any help either, although if you have time to spare, you might want to try. Township workers are a lot nicer and will actually help me out on occasion, as well as private tree service people.

Bill
 
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As noted before, it varies by area. In many (certainly not all) state, when the State/County cuts trees down on the right-of-way, and leaves them it's for people to pick up (and save the Government the cost of hauling and disposing).
I once had a adjoining property owner argue (when I was picking up road-side wood) that it was their wood, not the Counties... I pointed out the County would not be cutting wood on "their" property (way too many legal issues there). It was County policy that wood left on the right-of-way was first come, first served. I further asked them to call the County and confirm, I wasn't going anywhere. They went in the house and never came back out...
 
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My small city is in the middle to thier winter tree triming now that the ground has finally frooze. I took the boys donuts at thier shop last week and they gave me the list. I've been spending my lunch hour checking trees on the list for burls. If I see a chunk I like they ussually grab it with the loader tractor and drop it in my truck.

This whole process costs me a dozen donuts a couple times and a general willingness to donate a turned piece to whatever fundraiser the city boys might find themselves stuck working on.

I like my deal with them.

Frank
 
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Ok. I'll be the outlaw here.

Sometimes it's easier to appologize afterwords than to get permission beforehand. In such situations, I've only very occasionally had anyone question me and, even then, a simple polite explanation and offer to leave the wood has always sufficed.

If it were me and I really wanted the logs (burls, spalt, whatever), I'd stop by and pick them up. Now if you're talking interstate, it gets a bit hairy in the safety department unless you can pull over reeeeeal far. Figure that the wood is waiting to be shredded and that very few staties would have any problem with you snagging some.

That being my recommendation, don't call me from the clink looking for bail, although I really can't imagine anyone protesting beyond a "what are you doing, move along" level.

Dietrich

P.S.( on private land, I always, and I mean always get permission before hand and again at time of cut)
 
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What he said...

I am in Dietrich's camp on this one...

...Besides you can always use "I am just trying to save this wood before someone burns it" as your reason.

Jeff
 

Bill Grumbine

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n7bsn said:
I once had a adjoining property owner argue (when I was picking up road-side wood) that it was their wood, not the Counties... I pointed out the County would not be cutting wood on "their" property (way too many legal issues there).

I do not want to get too political here, or get into an argument, but I have some very strong feelings and thoughts about this. I am the one who pays the mortgage and taxes on property that is classified as "right of way". Right of way means that the county can come and take it from me using eminent domain. County and municipal governments have tried to broaden their powers (as all governments do) to tell me what I can and cannot do with my property. I have stood up to them several times. Some I win, some I lose. Actually, I have only lost one, and that was because I elected not to invest the time and energy to pursue it. But it really gets my hackles up when someone in an official position tells me it is "their" property and not mine. Because of my beliefs in the rights of property owners, I ask them as well as ask the state, local or whatever official body might be intruding. The main reason governments win their "right of way" fights is because they can tax me to hire the lawyer to sue me. :mad: :mad: :mad: :mad:

Bill
 
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Bill Grumbine said:
I.... I am the one who pays the mortgage and taxes on property that is classified as "right of way". ....

Bill
I take it you are not aware that many states do not tax the road right-of-way? and it may not even appear on the property title? Fair is fair, you don't get to use it for anything. (note, I'm not talking about a utility right-of-way, that's something else, at least in some states).

Remember, just cause "the law" is says one thing where you live, does not mean it says the same thing someplace else.
 
R

Ron Sardo

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It's only illegal if you get caught :D:D

If it was on private land, or if it's still growing on my neighbors yard, I would get permission first. Otherwise, I wouldn't sweat it too much.

About 5 years ago the state was cutting down trees along the roads. I have no clue as to why the state was doing this. But once the crews left, the locals with pickup trucks came and cleared all the firewood away.


Bill Grumbine said:
The main reason governments win their "right of way" fights is because they can tax me to hire the lawyer to sue me.

Bill


I love that line Bill.
 
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Joined
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Fort Pierce, Florida
Roadside wood

If you are trying to be a "straight arrow" in getting wood from roadsides, it might be better to call your local DOT office no matter what state you live in. And, the higher position you can reach, like the District Engineer or District Manager, the more sensitive they are to how the public is treated. Their future is tied to how you are treated by them. Usually, a short explanation will suffice as long as safety issues are not concerned.

Remember, these people are little wheels trying to become big wheels and if you are treated rudely and complain to a "politician" then usually that "politician" will come down hard on that non-elected employee. And then they are invited to retire!

If you can, be as nice to them as you want them to be nice to you. There are lots of trees along lots of roads. :D
 

Bill Grumbine

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n7bsn said:
I take it you are not aware that many states do not tax the road right-of-way? and it may not even appear on the property title? Fair is fair, you don't get to use it for anything. (note, I'm not talking about a utility right-of-way, that's something else, at least in some states).

Remember, just cause "the law" is says one thing where you live, does not mean it says the same thing someplace else.

I'm well aware that state laws vary from state to state. I also freely admit that I am not familiar with state law other than PA state law - and I am reasonably sure I am familiar with it. My property survey shows the boundary with the right of way drawn inside of it. Since I live in a house that is approximately 200 years old, and houses of this age were built right up on the road for the most part, it is actually within the right of way. My shop is also within the right of way. My corn crib and outdoor furnace are in the right of way as well, but they couldn't stop me from putting the furnace where it is because it is behind the corn crib. If the law read here as it appears to read in WA, it would stand to reason that I would not be able to utilize either building, corn crib, or furnace, right?

All this above is why I said I don't want to get into an argument. The OP is from PA, so it stands to reason that PA law would apply to him, and why I replied in the first place.
 
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Ask Correctly

In my experience, the one to answer this question is, in every case, the job-site foreman. Most all these crews are either contractors or county public works guys, and their job is to "clear the site." It makes no difference to them if they use your truck or theirs to haul away the wood so long as there are no safety issues involved and you don't interfere with the crew. I see them working, I stop and ask for the boss, and explain my "need." They've always [ALWAYS] been willing to set stuff to the side for me, and also let me know when to come back to pick it up. Over the years I'll get a call now and then from one of the foremen to let me know were stuff is being cut.

It's important, however, to carry through on YOUR deal to haul it away right away. If you don't go back promptly, don't take everything they've left for you, or leave the site a mess, that crew will get trouble from their overboss, and the next time you ask, you'll get the Bum's Rush.

If there's an issue with whose wood, etc., the foreman will usually be able to tell you who to contact (& bribe). That's happened twice with me; once with a private party and once with the warden of a prison. Warden was actually nice about it, and I returned him an Ambrosia Maple salad bowl. We even considered a demo or two in the prison wood shop, but liability and security issues got in the way.
 
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Jurisdiction is what counts. You can have federal, state, or local roadways here. Means different people to contact unless you get in touch directly with the workers. Who may not even have anything to do with the roads and higway folks, but work for the utility company clearing under the power line that parallels the highway under different rules.

Personally, I wouldn't take anything I wasn't invited to take regardless the lighting at the time. But that's because I'm a landowner too, and I don't want to set a precedent for folks to come help themselves on my place. I have no objection to hunting, fishing, hiking, and so forth as long as it is with permission. Even the locals ask before they go to my swimming hole, or they don't go again.
 
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Virginia

Our street is about a half mile long, ending at a highway. There is a VDOT installation about 200 yards from our intersection on the other side of the road. On the VDOT property, but not inside the fence, they sometimes put logs. They seem to be delighted that I come and cut them up and haul off most of them. Recently they put about six ten foot sections of red oak that were from 2 1/2 to over 3 feet in diameter. I was having trouble rolling one of the bigger pieces, so one of the guys went and got an articulated front end loader that they use to load salt and rolled the log and moved another to make them more accessible. All they got for their trouble was a couple of jokes. On one occasion I mentioned a pothole that was developing at my end of the street and asked if when they are doing light road maintenance if maybe they could include it. That afternoon it was patched. It's nice having state employees who have great attitudes.
 
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Yeah Ed, my experiences have generally been the same. I find that worrying if a road crew will be upset by my actions is kinda begging for distress. Any time there's actually been someone there to speak too, the answer has always been "go ahead". I'm just polite, completely deferential, and am genuinely willing to unload my pickup with no hard feelings if someone shows up and is upset. Have never actually had any conflict emerge and have never had to unload, despite several offers. That usually brings them up pretty short, when they see that the offer is genuine, and they switch from righteous to a little appologetic.

And, once again, I NEVER take off private property without permission, although I do not consider stacked on the curb with the garbage to be "private property." (got some great yew that way)

Dietrich
 
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My small California town generally leaves the wood in nice stacks for people to pick up as firewood. I've stoped many times to ask the crew boss If I can pick through their pile. I've spoken with everybody from fire crews, prisoners, city workers, and private tree trimmers. All have been very nice and if they did not let me grab logs on the spot they told me where they were going to take it, to give me (and all the fire wood scavengers) a chance to grab what we want before chipping it.

If the wood is on private property (the good olive and walnut always are) I ask the owner for permision, explain what I want it for, and generally bring them a bowl made from the wood I snagged.

Last scenario is wild wood in the forest. State and national parks...I don't mess with. In the National forest I go get a permit from the local ranger station for cutting of burls, no charge. If it is already cut I take it with out asking...a ranger told be this is fine.
 
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I live in Northern California - so this may only fit for here. But, for a long time CALTRANS used to cut trees along the rightaway and take the wood - all of it. Someone found out that the workers were taking the wood home for their own use and then there were some that were selling the extra to make a little pocket change. The person that found out complained and there has been a change in policy. When CALTRANS cuts a tree in the rightaway - they take the brush (or chip it) and leave the wood. The wood is available for the public to pick up for firewood, etc. If the wood is still there after (I think) 3 days - then CALTRANS can pick up the wood and dispose of it. This is as long as the wood is not a safety hazard.

The city is a bit harder to work with but I am working on them. They cut down a super nice silver maple in the park about 8 years ago and they would not let me have it. I think it ended up in a landfill. A real shame as it had sooooooo much ripple in it.

Other than that - I am with Mark - ask the foreman and they will most likely give you what you want. Around here the biggest worry is the pro-firewood cutters one has to compete with.
Hugh
 
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The correct answer, of course, is "It depends." Around here, roadside orphans are usually just that. But a neighbor recently had a large pine felled in his front yard. A couple huge logs were stacked at the curb. R/W extends about 5 feet back. But it appeared to me these had likely been promised to a sawyer, and destined for lumber; sure enough, they were picked up a few days later. I'm somewhat surprised with Ed Moore's experience. If the road crew weren't aware of such an arrangement, then Ed got lucky; or, they may have been acting with full authority. (BTW, Ed, you mean you could roll some of the smaller logs by yourself :confused: ) Sometimes, tree trimmers bring along their chipper and shred the wood at the work site; otherwise, they pay about $35 per ton tipping fee. They know that when you ask, and you don't need to remind them.

Our woodturning club has some contacts with DOT and contractors. We usually get a heads up on major clearing, and have a chainsaw party.

The key to any of these situations is to treat the workers as friends. When I buy gravel, the "official" 1 CY measure is a level bucket on the front-end loader. A few minutes of chat gets me a "heaping tablespoon." Works the same with roadies, foremen, clerks at the Borg, etc. Most people enjoy being treated as real live human beings, as long as you don't waste their time. To scramble Al Capone's advice, "You get more cooperation with a kind word and a gun, than you get with a gun alone."

Joe
 
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Joe,

The large red oak logs that I have been cutting on were not cut at the VDOT site, rather they were cut somewhere else and deposited there. I am sure that I asked the first time before I cut any logs, but this time I just fired up the CS and cut away. Later, as the shift ended some of the guys came by to chat and watch me cut. I don't think they had seen anyone rip with a saw before, just cross-cut. When I needed to roll the three foot logs that were longer than the others they were very happy to use the front-end loader to do that. When the guy was done he stayed and chatted for awhile and wanted to watch.

We lived in Maryland for 36 years. The Maryland MVA was a horrible bureaucracy that should be avoided at all costs. The City of Bowie manager was a good friend of ours and told us when good trees would be dropped. When we moved to SW Virginia, SE of Roanoke, I must say that VDOT has been great. My son had some license problems in Maryland and the office here bent over backwards to help him. (That he is a lot better looking than his father may have helped here. :D ) We have only had positive experiences with VDOT here.
 
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Got to agree with Bill

Bill Grumbine said:
I do not want to get too political here, or get into an argument, but I have some very strong feelings and thoughts about this. I am the one who pays the mortgage and taxes on property that is classified as "right of way". Right of way means that the county can come and take it from me using eminent domain. County and municipal governments have tried to broaden their powers (as all governments do) to tell me what I can and cannot do with my property. I have stood up to them several times. Some I win, some I lose. Actually, I have only lost one, and that was because I elected not to invest the time and energy to pursue it. But it really gets my hackles up when someone in an official position tells me it is "their" property and not mine. Because of my beliefs in the rights of property owners, I ask them as well as ask the state, local or whatever official body might be intruding. The main reason governments win their "right of way" fights is because they can tax me to hire the lawyer to sue me. :mad: :mad: :mad: :mad: Bill

I have to agree with Bill on this matter. My deed and survey show that the property line for our farm is actually the center of the county road. In fact when the survey was done the surveyors actually drove markers into the asphalt to show where the property line is. I then measured from these marks and added one foot to the "right of way distance" and placed my pasture fence at that point. No one but the county can do anything on the "right of way" without my permission. Even when the power company wanted to move some power poles they had to come and negotiate with me to set the new poles on the property that is included in the county right of way. The same goes for political and business advertising - cannot be done without my permission. I too am a private property right fanatic and if there is a tree cut down on my land that the county has taken the use of for people to travel on - then you better have my permission before you take said tree!
 
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Got to agree with Bill

Bill Grumbine said:
I do not want to get too political here, or get into an argument, but I have some very strong feelings and thoughts about this. I am the one who pays the mortgage and taxes on property that is classified as "right of way". Right of way means that the county can come and take it from me using eminent domain. County and municipal governments have tried to broaden their powers (as all governments do) to tell me what I can and cannot do with my property. I have stood up to them several times. Some I win, some I lose. Actually, I have only lost one, and that was because I elected not to invest the time and energy to pursue it. But it really gets my hackles up when someone in an official position tells me it is "their" property and not mine. Because of my beliefs in the rights of property owners, I ask them as well as ask the state, local or whatever official body might be intruding. The main reason governments win their "right of way" fights is because they can tax me to hire the lawyer to sue me. :mad: :mad: :mad: :mad: Bill

I have to agree with Bill on this matter. My deed and survey show that the property line for our farm is actually the center of the county road. In fact when the survey was done the surveyors actually drove markers into the asphalt to show where the property line is. I then measured from these marks and added one foot to the "right of way distance" and placed my pasture fence at that point. No one but the county can do anything on the "right of way" without my permission. Even when the power company wanted to move some power poles they had to come and negotiate with me to set the new poles on the property that is included in the county right of way. The same goes for political and business advertising - cannot be done without my permission. I too am a private property right fanatic and if there is a tree cut down on my land that the county has taken the use of for people to travel on - then you better have my permission before you take said tree!
 
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Bill Grumbine said:
I do not want to get too political here, or get into an argument, but I have some very strong feelings and thoughts about this. I am the one who pays the mortgage and taxes on property that is classified as "right of way".

Property Rights are important to many. I would point out in addition to property rights of trees in the right of way, the property owner may have other trees. If you treat the property owner with respect, you may have another source of my favorite wood. *Free*

John :)
 
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I'm sure that different states have different policies but in Colorado I have stopped and asked permission to take wood at various highway projects. The answer has always been an enthusiastic yes. If I haul it off they don't have to. I often get offers to use a front end loader to help me get the large pieces in the truck. In mountian areas when the county cuts trees they leave them by the road so people will take them for firewood. :)
Bill, In Colorado the governmental unit owns the right of way. I am not taxed for it and have no more say over the use of it than any other citizen. My county commisioners recently paid me almost $300 for a piece 30' x 6' at the end of my driveway for a road straightening project. :rolleyes:
 
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It certainly wouldn't hurt to develop a "relationship" with the county road crew foreman or whomever is in the position to grant permission. Perhaps also you might consider finding out what his needs may be...and perhaps you are in a position to meet one or two of them from time to time. Showing your appreciation by providing a nice turned item is a great start. Could be that you might even get a call when the crew is removing vegetation of interest to you. BTW, I am not suggesting anything illegal or unethical for either party.......just a relationship where friends help friends. Remember this....people do things for "their" reasons.....not "yours". That's the way the world works. It the way the world has always worked.
 
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Frank Kobilsek said:
My small city is in the middle to thier winter tree triming now that the ground has finally frooze. I took the boys donuts at thier shop last week and they gave me the list. I've been spending my lunch hour checking trees on the list for burls. If I see a chunk I like they ussually grab it with the loader tractor and drop it in my truck.

This whole process costs me a dozen donuts a couple times and a general willingness to donate a turned piece to whatever fundraiser the city boys might find themselves stuck working on.

I like my deal with them.

Frank

I agree with Frank on this. Knock out all the middle folks and just deal with the guys that are doing the work. Donuts appears to be the key here (and about anywhere else).

Only problem I ever had was grabbing some hurricane debris from a roadside. One of the companies doing the official cleanup was irritated with me grabbing the big pieces. They were being paid by the pound to haul all the debris to a landfill, and didn't like me grabbing the heavy stuff and leaving the lightweight branches that were a lot more trouble. I thought about it but realized that these vultures were just feeding off our tax dollars in a time of emergency and really didn't care except to make a dollar. I just moved over a block and went back to grabbing what I wanted in the stacks. DOT had bigger problems than my truck load of "debris".
 
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And the answer is...

I finally received a response from PennDot. Thought I'd share with the group:


Dear Mr. Pencheff:
This is in response to your e-mail dated January 23, 2007 to the PENNDOT Executive Office regarding removing felled timber along SR 0222. I have been asked to respond to your concern since this falls within my area of responsibility.


Permission to remove this wood cannot be granted. SR 0222 is a limited access highway. The Department does not permit access of limited access areas to the public for the removal of trees. The Department's policy does permit us to offer cut trees to the owner of real property adjacent to the highway right-of-way on roadways other than limited access. However, due to safety concerns and Federal regulations, entry onto SR 0222 for this purpose is not permitted.

So there we have it. Do NOT try to pick up free wood from the side of limited access State Route highways in Pennsylvania. It's a no-no.

"We have met the enemy, and he is us"
 
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Greg,

Somehow I missed the "limited access" note in your original post. Were you really expecting permission to salvage wood from a high speed interstate highway? THAT should have ended the matter at the get-go. No bureaucrat would ever consider "giving permission" in such a situation. The safety concerns of unrestricted scavaging would be enormous, and the liability following the 50-car pile up would approach "biblical". :D

mm
 
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Which, in all honesty, is why I practice the "ask the person there" and the "sometimes it's easier to appologize than to get permission" policies. If you go to the "oaff-ficial" person, you'll usually get the "too much risk" blowoff. If you ask the person there or just pick it up, you rarely run into that problem.

Now some folks would say "You're Breaking The Law!!!". Well... kindasortamaybeyeah. And? Bureaucracies exist to make extensive and detailed regulations to protect municipalities from any responsability whatsoever if anyone within the town limits does something stupid. I don't tend to break the law but I personally feel only marginally obligated to follow town and state ordinances that are specifically designed with CYA as the only real purpose for their existance (this doesn't count wiring, plumbing, construction, etc).

I don't climb power lines. I don't hop fences. I don't steal stuff. I don't cut down living trees and seldom cut down dead ones. I do graze what is available and unwanted.

Dietrich

P.S.(mark posted while I was typing. Are we really talking an interstate/high speed multi-lane highway here? Dude, that's death unless you have a full pulloff road or access from the non-highway side)
 
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