Soaking green wood

[Bowen Turner]

On the old forum there was a thread on drying green wood. Someone posted about soaking the blank in a solution for a period of time, and that the solution displaces the water. I went to find the message but of course can't access the old forum.

Anyone out there post the message, or know what the solution was?

 

[Mike Schwing]

More than likely that the substance was denatured alcohol, which has over the past month or so exploded onto the turning scene, thanks to Dave Smith from Longview, WA. Dave has been conducting trials using alcohol as a drying agent for a year or so and recently published his findings.

I have soaked, and dried, about a dozen turnings using this method, and found it to be a great success. Things I have soaked include small bowls, very large bowl roughs, platter blanks, and hollow forms, species ranging from big leaf maple burl to red delicious apple. Most of my turnings are soaked for 24 hours then set aside to dry on their own with no further treatment. In a max of 2 weeks they are ready to finish turn - even 15" bowl blanks that were throwing water when they were roughed.

The longest and best threads on this topic can be found at www.woodcentral.com in the turning forum. Search the past month for "bowl drying" or "alcohol".

 

[Steve Worcester]

It seems worth a try.

Here is a more specific link
http://www.woodcentral.com/cgi-bin/turning.pl?frames;read=47891

 

[Bowen Turner]

THANKS!!

I always run into problems when I am rough turning and going back to the object when it is dry. I just can't seem to figure out how to hold the bowl to finish turning.

My problems are that when I chuck the bottom of the bowl, it most often flies off the lathe several times even though I keep modifying the recess to better hold the expanded chuck, when I use the cole jaws, and I can't always because of the size of the bowl blank, I have a problem with getting the bowl in the centre.

Is this just a case of experience, or are there some tricks I don't know about.

And here is one to share: Matt Heffrom from the Inland Woodturners group recently told me this and said everyone knows about it......I bet they don't. He goes to the Home Depot and gets the brass shavings from the key making machine - actually it's more a fine dust, then he mixes it with glue and uses it to fill cracks and voids. It looks fantastic and I am just in the process of doing the same.

Ruth

 

[dkulze]

Hi, Ruth.

When roughing, you'll do alot better with a tenon than with a recess. You can turn the piece between centers leaving a cone on the inside for the tailstock, and then recenter it easily to true the tenon before chucking it to finish once it's dried and moved.

IMHO,
dietrich

 

[Bowen Turner]

Dietrich,
Do you mean to turn a tennon on the head stock and grip it? rough the outside, turn it around and then to use the tail stock in the centre and turn a long cone? Just want to be clear before I try it this weekend.

Thanks,
Ruth

 

[john lucas]

I may do things differently than some. I mount the bowl between centers and turn the outside. including a tenon for the chuck. Then I reverse it and chuck it up keeping the tailstock in place. I hollow out the inside but leave a long cone that goes from the bottom up to the tailstock. When the bowl is dry I can mount it between centers and true up the tenon and shape the outside. Then I remount it in the chuck and finish off the inside.
When I am first hollowing the inside of the bowl I try to leave the tailstock in place. Sometimes the shape of the bowl won't let me do this so I pull the tailstock off and hollow the inside but I still leave the cone. So far I have never lost a bowl due to the cone on the inside. Most of the time when I lose a bowl due to checking it's either on the top rim or the bottom tenon. I've learned to leave the bottom thinner than the rest of the bowl when I rough out. The bottom doesn't move as much so not as much wood will be removed when rechucking. This has so far completely elimated the checking at the foot through the tenon.

 

[dkulze]

what he said.

Thanks, John. Good explanation.
Dietrich

 

[Bowen Turner]

Thanks John!
I just want to go home now and soak and turn.

Mike, have you found any difference between fully soaking and constant turning in the ethanol? I am wondering if I can buy a gallon and just keep turning the blank, or, if it is better to totally cover the blank?

Ruth

 

[arbud]

ethanol!?

I had an old friend (now dead) who told me that there was only 1 way to use grain alcohol for either turning or caning chairs: turn 1/cane 1, drink 2. Repeat the process as often as necessary.

 

[matt999]

Don't Forget "The Soap Solution"

I have been having great results with a 50/50 mix of dish soap and water. The freshly roughed piece is soaked for 6-24 hours submerged in this solution, then allowed to drip before final turning. Makes a big mess, but no fumes from the alcohol. There is a great site somewhere out there that goes into great detail about this topic, but I cannot find it.

 

[matt999]

MSDS for Denatured Alcohol

http://www.syndel.com/msds/denatured_ethanol_msds.html

 

[Steve Worcester]

Without stirring the pot, I like the idea of "rush" drying, but I do wonder about how toxic the wood willl be after imersion in the DNA.

 

[Andrew]

Immediately afterward it would certainly be hazardously toxic, Steve. But longer term, it shouldn't be too much of a problem if allowed to fully evaporate.

Afterall, we use the same stuff in shellac finishes and that's one step closer to our digestive tracts in most cases.

 

[Mike Schwing]

Thanks John!
Mike, have you found any difference between fully soaking and constant turning in the ethanol? I am wondering if I can buy a gallon and just keep turning the blank, or, if it is better to totally cover the blank?

Ruth

Can't say Ruth, as I have a 5 gallon bucket of alcohol outback. Everything I turn fits into that bucket, and submerges. Sorry.

 

[Kenny]

I can't find the recipe??? I'm so hungry...

I went to Woodcentral for Dave Smiths findings and can't locate his article. what is the actual recipe? I would love to read the origional article? who can help...

can I reuse the denatured alcohol over and over?
how toxic is it to your skin?
If I bath it in alcohol will it get woozy and wooble on the lathe?
I want to dry Manzaneta wood (central california) and it cracks really easily- any luck with drying this beast?

 

[Rick Prevett]

I went to Woodcentral for Dave Smiths findings and can't locate his article. what is the actual recipe? I would love to read the origional article? who can help...

can I reuse the denatured alcohol over and over?
how toxic is it to your skin?
If I bath it in alcohol will it get woozy and wooble on the lathe?
I want to dry Manzaneta wood (central california) and it cracks really easily- any luck with drying this beast?

Kenny, there is no 'recipe' so to speak, only a procedure using Denatured Alcohol. The link Steve provided up-thread should take you to the article (thread), where Dave introduces the procedure.

As to your questions:
1. yes, but you may have to strain it once in a while.
2. I've read where nitrile gloves are recommended, but don't know for sure.
3. Yes, be sure to have plenty of black coffee on hand.
4. I have no idea, sorry

rick

 

[Kenny]

Regarding Brass shavings..

I didn't know about it. smart idea. I went to Home Depot during Lunch and asked for all their shavings- they were all to excited to give them to me. Looks like Gold dust
I bet Granite dust would look really cool too. Home Depot special orders Granite but I am sure theirs places that have it. I like using colored tile grout mixed with epoxy to get really cool effects.

 

[Steve Worcester]

It seems worth a try.

Here is a more specific link
http://www.woodcentral.com/cgi-bin/turning.pl?frames;read=47891

The original article was published in Woodturning Plus newspaper, but a synopsis is at the link above.

 

[Dave Smith]

Links to Alcohol dryimg info.

I went to Woodcentral for Dave Smiths findings and can't locate his article. what is the actual recipe? I would love to read the origional article? who can help...

can I reuse the denatured alcohol over and over?
how toxic is it to your skin?
If I bath it in alcohol will it get woozy and wooble on the lathe?
I want to dry Manzaneta wood (central california) and it cracks really easily- any luck with drying this beast?

Hi Kenny,

You can visit my website for links to the Woodcentral article and original thread. Please email me if you have any specific questions.

The alcohol can be reused for soaking more bowls.

The alcohol dissipates very quickly taking the moisture in the wood with it. There no residue to affect any finish application.

As with any thing new there have been many nay sayers but I had several people test the process before publishing it in the November issue of More Woodturning. I have been using it for several years with excellent results. At the present there are more than 20 people who have reported to me that they are using the process with good results on a wide range of wood types and forms.

Good luck.

Dave Smith

Resting after the Christmas rush in Longview, WA.

 

[dkulze]

OK. I'm gonna take a theoretical shot at this, and anyone with a better suggestion can chime in or point out where this theory sucks.

How many folks out there are familiar with partial pressure and semipermiable mebranes? Look at it this way. Cell walls are built to hold in liquid, but not too much liquid. They are also built to allow nutrients and gasses to soak through to nourish the cell, and waste to soak out. They do this through being partially permiable to substances. When an amount of a gas or substance builds up to a certain amount, it essentially builds pressure and oozes out until the right amount is reached. This is helped out by having the blood or body fluid outside the cell having a lower level, and hence, a higher affinity for the substance. For example, if you blood has less CO2 in it than your cells, your cells will outgas until it is balanced. If you hold your breath, the CO2 builds up in your blood until it can't get out of your cells because of this higher partial pressure.

Otay, if that doesn't make sense or is way oversimplified, read up in your local biology/physics book for more details.

In alcohol soaking wood, I'm guessing that the cell membranes in wood have a fairly high affinity for alcohol. This would mean that, when they are exposed to it, it soaks in very easily. But, if it soaks in, something has to go out or the cell would pop, so as the alcohol seeps in, water seeps out until it is all balanced up. Seeing as the alcohol is pretty pure, this would mean that a balance would be mostly alcohol, so, after a while, the cells are full of more alcohol than water and the alcohol in the bucket has a bit higher water content than before.

Now, for the fun part. Alcohol is real volitile (evaporates very fast) so it will dry quickly. If it also soaks through cell walls easier than water, it can soak out just as easily, so, not only does it evaporate quicker than the water, it soaks out of the wood quicker too. Next thing you know, only the little bit of water that was left mixed in with it is still in the cells and the wood is "dry".

How's that?

Dr. Science, AKA Dietrich

 

[Steve Worcester]

I am guessing (operative word) that you are correct. I would also guess though that this quick drying would still leave in more pent up pressure in a bowl dryed in this method vs an air dry method and would still have more warping to do in the final finish stage.

My reasoning is that as water slowly evaporates, as in the air dry method, the cell structure is still plable and slowly is allowed to "collapse" and conform to the compression and reaction that build up naturally as the tree grows.
In a quick dry method, it will make all of it's movements in a much shorter period of time and would still have more unrelieved pressure when you are final turning.

I will say that I have not tried the alchohol method because I can't figure out where to put something this flamable and I also still question the toxicity of the evaporated fluid and anything it may have left behind in the cells. I know there are many among us that talk about once it is evaporated, it is safe, just like a standard laquer or something as a finish, but I am not that brave on a for food use product. For art work, I can see a definate plus.
In time, I too will experiment with this, just like I did with the soap method. But at the same time, I have so many roughed out bowls that I don't need to rush dry anything yet. Not that many pending orders, shows, or relatives anf friends that aren't already hooked up.

 

[dkulze]

Steve, I'm thinking that if the dry out time were in minutes or hours, the stress issue might arise but that the couple of weeks gives it plenty of time to move gracefully.

As to the toxicity, the reason they denature alcohol is to stop folks from drinking it. I'm pretty sure it's ethanol (grain alcohol). It's denatured by adding trace amounts of chemicals (not sure what). Even if it's methanol (wood alcohol), it wouldn't be toxic once it outgassed. As folks have said, we use denatured alcohol in laquer as a solvent and laquer is one of the only FDA approved food safe finishes (purty sure since they use it on M&Ms).

Yup, just looked it up. Denatured alcohol is "ethanol which has had a small amount of methanol added to render it poisonous." Both will outgas fully over time and methanol is not poisonous in minute amounts. It'll just taste horrible and make you sick as a dog (blind if you drink too much). All that being said, keeping it in a non-airtight container in the basement might present a problem, as would drying pieces. When I laquer a piece in the garage, the whole house ends up smelling like alcohol, even though there's no vent connection. It seeps up through the ceiling of the garage into the kitchen.

My solution would be to store, soak, and dry outside of the house proper, under a tarp or in the shed (or in the car if you want a good buzz while driving).

Dietrich

P.S.(it's really not that flamable. I'm holding a match over a bucket of it right now and I haven't had a pr****WHOOOOOOMMMPPPPP******)

 

[Dave Smith]

Steve,
Bowls soaked in alcohol and wrapped on the outside dry with less distortion and defects. Please read the article in Woodcentral and the associated thread for more information on the process. You can find the links on my website. My website is listed on my profile page. As you might imagine I have spent quite a bit of time repeating the same information answering questions on different forums.

Dietrich,
Alcohol is used to thin shellac. Lacquer is thinned with nastier stuff than alcohol. A lot of people don't realize how large a volume of flammable materials they have in their shops and garages that is more hazardous than ethanol. Lacquer thinner and chain saw gas is in that category. I don't discount that there are hazards working with ethanol. However, I believe the hazards are comparable or less than chemicals we already have and use regularly.

Dave Smith

Two grandchildren visiting = no shop time in Longview, WA.

 

[dkulze]

Gotcha.

My comments bout alcohol are mostly due to the very high level of volitility and the desire to not get a buzz while working with machine tools.

Dip one, drink one. Dip two, drink 2. and so on.

Dietrich

 

[Jeff Jilg]

Hi Dave,

I read thru the postings here and on WoodCentral. I agree with you that a lot of the info looks like it's repeated answers to the same questions. If all this stuff was on your website, it would be a great repository of questions/answers.

I tried the boiling method and it did in fact reduce cracking. But boiling a bunch of bowls took a long time, was a pain in the rear, and seemed wasteful of energy. The alcohol soaking sounds like it's a lot easier. :cool2:

 

[foot sore]

Dietrich,
Sounds like a viable theory as to the 'quick drying' aspects of the process - very clearly stated also
Any theory for why this process appears to minimize cracks/warping? My gut tells me that it is similar to why wetting a board with water will 'raise the grain', but alchohol won't.

Paul

 

[dkulze]

Well, in the whole semipermiable membrane end of the theory, I'm guessing the cell walls are designed to hold a higher pressure on the inside than the outside, which would make them swell when exposed to water (basically one way affinity). As for alcohol, they probably don't have this same affinity and so will maintain the same pressure inside and out, thus not swelling. If this is the case and the whole displacement of water theory is accurate, then the very act of absorbing the alcohol would release significant cell pressure and "destress" the wood. As it completed drying, it would be under less tension and so would crack and move less.

How's that?

(the scary part is I'm basically talking out my a$$ here based on high school and college biology and physics. I'm a social worker by trade.)

Dietrich

 

[Rick-U]

LDD is the answer (for some)

Bowen,

If it was LDD (Liquid Dishwashing Detergent), aka soap, you were interested in as Matt suggested, you should be able to find more than you ever wanted to know by doing a search within the group at

http://groups-beta.google.com/group/rec.crafts.woodturning.

I've had some success with it... about the same as microwaving, but I'm back to my ladder, paper bags, and shelves all over the place.

Good luck,

Rick

The older I get the better I was.

 

[hutyera]

Bowen,

I've been using the soap method for some time with pretty fair results. If you're interested here is a link to a good article on the process: http://www.conoverworkshops.com/ww/news/ww1_6.htm. You still have to be mindful of final turned thickness consistency. After final turning the bowls will continue to dry and likely go mildly out of round.

 

[William Young]

Dave Smith;
I am not much into the theoretical aspects of it. I leave that sort of thing to those that are so inclined. But on the practical side of it , I have now tried the alcohol method several times and I am very pleased with the results. I have rough turned , soaked for 24 hours and then finish turned a number of bowls in various sizes in 2 to three weeks with great success.
There is only one thing that I have not seen addressed and excuse me if it has been and I missed it but I do have one question. On every one I used the alcohol method on, the main bowl showed no signs of cracking whatsoever but any ones that had knots in them about the size of a dime up to about the size of a silver dollar had cracks in the knot only. I kept adding thick CA to the knot cracks as they were drying so they didn't cause a problem when finish turning. What is your theory behind why all the bowl stayed stable and crack free (except for some shrinkage of course) and all the knots cracked. It was also kind of amazing that the cracks in the knots did not migrate out into the rest of the bowl. Usually there are two to three cracks in each knot.
W.Y.

 

[dkulze]

As the resident non-expert who's willing to pretend to be an expert, I'm guessing that the knot cracks are because you're dealing with the equivalent of an entire second branch through the piece. The cracks in the knot are exactly why we mill out the pith so often when we turn. No matter how relaxed and crack free the main bowl will be, you still have a cylinder of wood seperate from the general grain that is going to shrink in it's own way. It has only three choices when this happens, shrink in a way that just happens to match the surrounding wood (pure luck), pull loose from the body of the wood, or crack. The only woods where I've had minimal problem with this have been softwoods, where I'm assuming the surrounding wood has enough flex to work with the knot.

Dietrich

 

[William Young]

Thanks Dietrick;
You probably hit the nail on the head about the surrounding soft wood where the surrounding wood has enough flex to work with the knot. The ones where I was experiencing this with the alcohol soak were all pine bowls.
They have got into their major orchard pruning season where I live so I will be watching for some apple, pear, cherry , and peach etc. pieces where the knots in harder wood like that may work entirely differently.
W.Y.

 

[David Gillie]

Bowen,

I've been using the soap method for some time with pretty fair results. If you're interested here is a link to a good article on the process: http://www.conoverworkshops.com/ww/news/ww1_6.htm. You still have to be mindful of final turned thickness consistency. After final turning the bowls will continue to dry and likely go mildly out of round.

I'm kind of surprised there isn't more interest in the soap method v. the alcohol (hic...) method -- mostlyu just because of the volitility of the alcohol.
I visited an avid turner a couple weeks ago and he says the soap method has been the one that works best for him.

I am also wondering about using Downey fabric softener. All of the science of it was explained to me about how it displaces water but my eyes glazed over with the scientific terms. This Downey method was used for bending wood, but I wonder if it might have some application in green wood turning.

Anybody ever try it?

 

[-e-]

dave smith's web site

here's dave's article:

http://www.woodnheart.com/ShopTips.html