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Titebond 3 vs Titebond 2Extended Time

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A month or two ago I asked a question about experiences comparing Titebond 3 (T3) against Titebond 2 extended (T2E) glues. Feedback wasn't as strong directly comparing these as I'd hoped. So I did some experiments myself.

I've been making small pieced candy bowls (5-6") and cookie plates (8-9") by face grain gluing several pieces of different species (see avatar picture). For the last several months I've been using Titebond 3, but when used on joints near the bottom of bowls that have shallow angled glue joints with light colored wood the Titebond 3 adds a dark color that isn't appealing. Consequently I've started using Titebond 2 Extended because of it's clear/light color as well. My question was if this mattered for durability.

For those that like answers up front:
1) Wood thickness at the glue joint is the most important factor. As long as the joints are ~3/16" or greater there should be no problem; 1/8" is probably OK; less than that doesn't hold up as well.
2) Titebond 3 performs marginally better that Titebond 2E at very thin thicknesses
3) Wood species matters, again at the margins; but less than the T3 vs T2E difference for what I tested (did NOT look at oily exotics etc - YMMV)

Methodolgy:
I glued up separate blocks of oak and sapelle, four laminations each, using both T3 and T2E for a total of 4 blocks each a little over 7" long. Then I sawed each block across the laminations to thicknesses of 1/16", 1/8", 3/16", 1/4", 3/8" and 1/2". This provided 6 thicknesses each in four groups (2x2 matrix) of oak or sapelle, and T3 or T2E glue. Each sample contained 3 glue lines a little over 7" long.

After waiting a week for the glue to fully cure, I subjected them to a worse stress than I hope anyone does with the bowls I make. I put them through our dishwasher (top rack) on a regular cycle (3hr15min) including heat dry. Soap was used about half the time as I snuck them in with our dishes when my wife wasn't watching :). I ran them through this cycle *10 TIMES* checking for delaminations between each cycle.

Results:
1) NO delamination failures observed through 10 cycles for either glue, either wood species, for all thicknesses 3/16" and greater.
2) NO delamination failures observed using Titebond 3 on oak, regardless of thickness 1/16" up.
3) 1/16" thicknesses of both oak and sapelle using Titebond 2 Extended Time had some delamination failure after one or two cycles, and 50% or more of the 21" combined glue line (3x7") had failed by 10 cycles. The 1/16" T2E sapelle sample was discontinued after 3 cycles when 2 of the 3 glue joints completely failed.
4) Sapelle 1/16" samples performed poorly with both glues.
5) Sapelle 1/8" samples started evidencing some delamination in mid-cycles with both T3 and T2E demonstrating <10% delamination on 1 of the 3 joints after 10 cycles.
6) Oak 1/8" T2E sample evidenced about 15% delamination on 1 of 3 joints after 2 cycles, this remained constant through 10 cycles.

Additional confirmation:
Glued up straight blocks don't stress the glue joint as much as rounded bowls will with various expansion and contractions working against each other. Believe it or not I had a few 'funnels' laying around so I put four of those into our dishwasher torture chamber as well, two T3 and two T2E. These were not as well controlled for wood species and thicknesses but casual observation confirmed the findings from above.

Three of the bowls (two T2E and one T3) with many 1/16" joints (and rim lamimations with ~3/16" joints) were discontinued after 1 dishwasher cycle because of many 1/16" joint failures on each; in all cases the 3/16" rim joints were still solid.

One of the T3 bowls with glue joints between 1/8" and 3/16" survived 10 dishwasher cycles with only 2 of the ~25 joints delaminating. Additionally a small plate glued with T2E, joints ~1/8" -1/4", survived 10 dishwasher cycles although the edges of half of the glue joints were separating (plate joints were straight across and had a little more stress than the controlled experiment above but not nearly the stresses of the bowl joints; different woods were used on this).

Additionally, all of the bowls and plate subjected to the dishwasher were sealed with Watco. After the first dishwasher cycle, that finish was gone.

Conclusions:
1) The most important thing I learned from this was not to let wall thicknesses get too small. Since starting to see the results a couple weeks ago I've been careful to target minimum thicknesses to around 3/16" and try not to allow any glue joints to be thinner than 1/8".
2) My initial goal was to better understand T3 vs T2E for my pieced bowls. Based on these results I will use those two glues interchangably for my bowls. There are some reasons to choose T3, but the difference is insignificant for most of my purposes.
3) Don't put wooden bowls in a dishwasher :)
(Frankly, I was pleasantly surprised how well both the T3 and T2E joints survived this stress)
 
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Thank you for this write up, well thought out and executed. I have saved it to my resource page.
I did an experiment with home made two part bleach, showing the how's and why's, then the results, another one with dye fading over time... Pictures and all.
All on a computer that gave up the ghost. Back up... back up... back up... I know, I'm like a reformed ________ . (fill in the blank)
 

brian horais

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Thanks Ron. A very thorough assessment. I have been a user of Titebond 3 on some of the multiple slat (15 or more) glue-ups I do after I found out the hard way that Titebond 2 would begin to set before I could glue all of the slats together. The Titebond 3 worked better in terms of slower set time but I found the '3' to be somewhat runny when compared with the Titebond 2. The tack of the '2' can be helpful when positioning pieces. Does the T2E have better tackiness than the 3? I know I am stretching the use of these technical gluing terms, but I think you will identify with what I am asking. Thanks again for a very well done assessment.
 
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Brian, Titebond 2 Extended time is runnier than T3, and provides even longer set times. The way I glue I can’t really comment on tack, but I suspect it’s not as good as T3 (suspect it’s an inverse relationship with runniness and set times).
 
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Clifton, if you ever find your notes on bleaching I’d be interested. I’ve thought about bleaching a couple times but haven’t gotten over the fear of the unknown, and fear that I might ruin something.
 
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Nice report Ron! I’m a Titebond Original guy. I concur with you conclusion regarding water (dishwasher) and laminated wood should be avoided. I used to “gain” glue many sections of wood together and be challenged with setting time. I watched one of my Guru’s, Tom Lohman, do some laminations in sections as opposed to trying to glue them all at once. His work excels and his laminations were far superior to mine. It changed the way I think about laminating things; two stages instead of one!!
 
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Great test and report! Amazing how well the samples held up in the dishwasher. One thing with laminated or segmented turnings is creep at the joints over time, creating a bump or recess at the glue line due to stress from moisture movement. Any input on how wall thickness affects creep over time?
 
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Doug - great question! I hadn't thought about that.

I just ran my fingers across all of the samples and detected no creep on any of them. I did detect creep on the bowl and plate that were stressed 10 dishwasher cycles but sample size is too small to say anything definitive about wood species, glue type, or joint thickness relative to creep. The very thin bowls that failed after 1 cycle had too much delamination to distinguish delam from creep I think.

I then ran my fingers across 20-30 finished pieced bowls (watco, wax and buffed) I've had laying around for a couple months with no stresses applied and detected creep on a couple of joints, not many but enough that my samples have enough joints involved I should have seen it if it happened at the same rate. I also ran my fingers over ~10 finished pieced bowls that have been in the cupboard for a year or two (one for 25yrs) and similarly found a few joints that evidenced creep.

After a little pondering, and rechecking past bowls, I think that my samples aren't subject to the type of creep I've observed on these bowls. All of the samples were glued long grain to long grain and all were glue joints between same type of wood. I hypothesize both factors reduced the probability of creep.
1) I think that different expansion/contraction rates between different species being glued together can impact creep and none of my samples had glue joints between species. Although this is not the only reason for creep as the one bowl that survived 10 cycles evidenced creep at a glue joint between two pieces of hard maple, I suspect it may have lessened the chances.
2) More importantly, I think the grain direction relative to the glue joint helped reduce creep. Ignoring segmenting end grain joints, the face grain glue joints I use can simplistically be either with grain aligned with the long axis of the joint or with grain perpendicular to the longer axis of the joint (on a turned pieced bowl the 'sides' have grain aligned joints, and the ends showing end grain have grain perpendicular joints). When I examine older finished bowls, any creep is found almost always where the bowl is showing end grain (grain perpendicular to the glue joint) and seldom where the grain runs with the axis of the glue joint.
3) Tangential vs radial shrinkage/expansion probably also can play a part if the glue joint is across dissimilar orientations. Frankly this might be involved in my understanding of #2 above?

With all that said, my thoughts here are more speculation than real knowledge. I suspect some of our good segmenters have a better understanding of causes of creep and will hopefully chime in and correct my misunderstandings as well as further enlighten us on how to avoid it :)
 

john lucas

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Dont know if polyeurethane glues stop.creep but it's incredibly messybandnif younger it on your hands forget getti t back off. I havent found anything Gorilla glue will.do that epoxy wont do better and is easy to clean up. Any body subjected epoxy to glue creep problems.
 
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Used TB3 for gluing cork rings for custom fishing rod grips. Still use it for various wood projects. Trick is not to put it on too thick. I put some on and use a cheap (100 for $5) paint brush to spread it. Wipe with damp cloth for any overrun.
 
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Glue creep is related to glueline rigidity and thickness, changes in moisture content and differential wood movement. Glueups that have mating parts of the same species and grain orientation are less subject to creep, while mixed species and alternating quartered, plainsawn and endgrain parts will show more issues.

Pieces in an environment with stable humidity levels will show less movement than in a varying atmosphere, let alone getting run through a dishwasher.

Titebond 3 is the least rigid of the Titebond lineup, while Titebond l Extend is the stiffest. To test this, spread a thin layer on a plastic surface, then peel it off and flex it when dry. Powdered plastic resin glue is probably the most rigid glue generally used in woodworking, and has good water resistance. Marine epoxies like West System are usually quite stiff but can vary according to formulation. Adding fumed silica will stiffen the mix considerably while making it opaque white. I have never had issues with epoxy creeping but it probably could under the right circumstances.

I keep epoxy on hand for projects needing extended working time or excellent moisture resistance. It has practically unlimited shelf life although the hardener can discolor over time.

For most decorative segmented turnings creep is probably a more significant issue than moisture induced delamination.









P
 
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Ron, interesting experiment. You should probably send it in to Franklin International who make the glue, they may have comments as well.

Can't remember who did the glue book, Bob Flexner?, but more things that most of us have never thought of.... I am trying to remember exactly what 'creep' is. I may be nit picking, but I think 'creep' is more of the wood sliding after it has been glued, and there always seems to be some ridges at glue lines which I think has another term. Like has already been said, grain orientation and woods with identical wood seasonal movement can make a big difference in the ridges you can feel...

Oh, I don't use the urethane glue for anything. I did glue up some mortice and tenon joints for an Ipe table, and after 10 or so years in the outdoor Oregon Weather, they all failed. Have to pound them back together and put in screws, and/or maybe turn some Ipe dowels...

robo hippy
 

brian horais

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Brian, Titebond 2 Extended time is runnier than T3, and provides even longer set times. The way I glue I can’t really comment on tack, but I suspect it’s not as good as T3 (suspect it’s an inverse relationship with runniness and set times).
Thanks for the reply Ron. I guess I will stick with Titebond 3 for the multiple slat glue-ups
 
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