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Spindle roughing gouge.

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I’ve heard and seen from pictures( thank goodness no personal experience) what can happen when one uses a spindle roughing gouge for more than spindles .
Is it just the weak tang that is the problem.
I see carter and sons have roughing gouges with huge regular tangs like a bowl gouge. Could you use these for more than spindles or is it the way the tool is ground the huge edge that is presented to the work that is not wise to use for side grain work? 9F7ED261-56F9-4617-8FAC-5CC46F03D079.jpeg
 
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Interesting question. Carter & Sons does have a different design approach to making a spindle rougher. But even if I could use their spindle roughers on end grain, I'm not sure that I would see any advantages to doing that. Still it would be interesting to hear what they have to say.
 
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It is generally accepted that using a SRG for anything other than rough turing wood round is dangerous due to the extreme likelihood of catastrophic catch. Having said that, I'm fairly sure that someone will disagree and point to someone successfully using a SRG to hollow a bowl.
 
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I’ve heard and seen from pictures( thank goodness no personal experience) what can happen when one uses a spindle roughing gouge for more than spindles .
Is it just the weak tang that is the problem.
I see carter and sons have roughing gouges with huge regular tangs like a bowl gouge. Could you use these for more than spindles or is it the way the tool is ground the huge edge that is presented to the work that is not wise to use for side grain work? View attachment 35335
Spindle roughing is side grain work.
I have a spindle roughing gouge like the ones you are referring to and haven't used for anything for many years. The tool does a poor job of roughing and has no other uses. The tang does not need to be any bigger for it's intended use, it is scary to think what it would take to break the tang and whatever it is definitely is miss use.
 
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When I started, there was no such thing as a SRG, or a bowl gouge, or a spindle gouge.there was just a gouge that served the purposes of all three. It most likely is dangerous for use as a bowl gouge. especially when extended over the tool rest for anything more than a half inch. But to think that they were used by hundreds of thousands of turners for the first 3/4 of the 20th century because there was nothing else is also a wonder.
 
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Thinking about this further and focusing on the hypothetical question Glenn asked, the answer is no you can't safely turn end grain with a spindle rougher regardless of the strength of the tang.

Consider this, an ordinary rougher used on end grain is prone to catches powerful enough to break an ordinary tang. That tang may be a weak link, but it certainly isn't a trivial piece of metal. If the tang is strengthened the catch is still going to happen and all that tang breaking energy will be looking for the next weakest link to dissipate on.
 

Dennis J Gooding

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I have a friend uses a SRG to turn pens start to finish. Personally, I seldom find it more useful than some other tool. On the other hand I almost never turn very large spindles.
 

Tom Gall

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I’ve heard and seen from pictures( thank goodness no personal experience) what can happen when one uses a spindle roughing gouge for more than spindles .
Is it just the weak tang that is the problem.
I see carter and sons have roughing gouges with huge regular tangs like a bowl gouge. Could you use these for more than spindles or is it the way the tool is ground the huge edge that is presented to the work that is not wise to use for side grain work? View attachment 35335
Short answer - yes you (someone) can, but NOT recommended. BTW - heavier duty round tangs have been around for quite some time. I bought a P&N 1-1/4" RO gouge from Mike Hosaluk 20 years ago. D-Way and Thompson also offer them, and probably other major lathe tool companies.
 

hockenbery

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Could you use these for more than spindles or is it the way the tool is ground the huge edge that is presented to the work that is not wise to use for side grain work?


The SRG is prone to catastrophic catches on face grain or endgrain hollowing. If the tang doesn’t break something worse will happen.
When you get really good at turning you can turn with an Axe head or a sharpened spoon.
While a really good turners can turn a bowl with an SRG, They use a bowl gouges because bowl gouges both remove wood faster when roughing and leave a smoother surface with finish cuts.
 
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I have Doug Thompsons monster roughing gouge, which is identical to the Carter and Sons one. When I bought it I actually talked to Doug about using it on bowls as well and I can’t remember the exact advice he gave me, but I’ve since decided against it. It’s not so much the tang / grind that’s the problem, it’s the shape of the flute. I can’t picture in my mind how I’d grind the gouge to cut similar to a bowl gouge.

If you’re thinking about just using the tool as ground (or even with the wings clipped), I’d be really worried about that. There’s less metal under the nose of a 1.5inch SRG than there is on a 3/4 V shaped bowl gouge. When using the 3/4 V shaped bowl gouge for heavy cuts I get some chatter from time to time, so I think the SRG, even if ground right, would still be a bear to use.
 
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Also as an added precaution, never sharpen your SRG using the oneway wolverine slide if you suspect your tang may be loose. It’s safer to sharpen it on the platform.
 
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One of our club's novice turners asked about the D-way SRG. Somewhere in the literature that they provide, it mentions grinding the gouge with a fingernail or swept back grind and using as a large bowl gouge. The tool appears to be made from 3/4" round stock with a bowl gouge like flute. It might be similar to a standard 3/4" gouge, but the confusion the statement generated had this novice turner grinding his Benjamin Best SRG with a rounded end and planning to use it on a bowl.
 

john lucas

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It's the shape of the flute and grind that is the problem. The tool wants to roll too easily and take a large bite. When that happens it usually rolls further and the wings stick into the wood and you get one hell of a catch. On traditional SRG it usually bends or breaks the tang. On Thompson or Carter tools it would most likely destroy your work or injure you. Here is a video showing the problem.
View: https://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=IOhHeyoZLaY
 

Emiliano Achaval

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A comment above says the spindle roughing gouge does a poor job at roughing. Must be operator error, I have aDoug Thompson SRG, one of the tools that I use a lot. Super versatile, and there is nothing better to true up a square blank to round in seconds. I can also leave a finish almost as good as using a skew. I can true up big logs when I make urns too. I would never use it for side grain work, like in a bowl.
 
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Bill Boehme

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I’ve heard and seen from pictures( thank goodness no personal experience) what can happen when one uses a spindle roughing gouge for more than spindles .
Is it just the weak tang that is the problem.
I see carter and sons have roughing gouges with huge regular tangs like a bowl gouge. Could you use these for more than spindles or is it the way the tool is ground the huge edge that is presented to the work that is not wise to use for side grain work? View attachment 35335

It's not that the tang is "weak" because it really isn't. The problem is that used incorrectly or on cross grain pieces, the SRG can have a massive dig in that could bend even a stronger shank or break the tool out of the handle or if nothing bends or breaks the back end of the handle might kick back and smack the person in the face.

I'm concerned that making an SRG with a stronger shank might give some people the wrong message ... "the problem has been fixed so now I can use the SRG on the inside of a bowl".
 
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I have seen a video in the past of a Thompson SRG being used on the outside of a bowl, it worked just fine. But it would be extremely dangerous to be used on the inside of a bowl.
 

john lucas

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I have used a SRG on bowls just to see of it works but then I have 3t years of turning. Even then the distance.between cutting well and getting a catch is very narrow.
 

hockenbery

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have seen a video in the past of a Thompson SRG being used on the outside of a bowl, it worked just fine

If someone has gone five years without a catch they should be able to use most any tool for any task it could possibly do. I have a friend who uses a skew on the outsides of bowls - He is a an exceptional turner.
I can do things with tools I don’t recommend to those who haven’t achieved the skill level to succeed.

The issue is if you get a catch
with a 3/4” diameter bowl gouge the dig in is roughly limited to a depth and width of about a 1/2”
The wood usually breaks out.
With a 3/4” SRG the width is 3/4” and the depth can exceed an inch.
The wood rarely beaks out something else has to happen
 
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It's not that the tang is "weak" because it really isn't. The problem is that used incorrectly or on cross grain pieces, the SRG can have a massive dig in that could bend even a stronger shank or break the tool out of the handle or if nothing bends or breaks the back end of the handle might kick back and smack the person in the face.

I'm concerned that making an SRG with a stronger shank might give some people the wrong message ... "the problem has been fixed so now I can use the SRG on the inside of a bowl".
That’s exactly what I thought!
 
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Been a while since I watched Ian 'Robbo' Roberts video on why you don't use a SRG on bowls. As near as I can tell, I am the only one who figured out exactly why he has the catch. For those that don't know him, he is an excellent turner and has more turning time than most of us. Most who view this video seem to miss the comment about how he was out in the shop the night before for a couple of hours and couldn't get the SRG to catch. What he is doing is the traditional peeling cut, which on spindles means that you rub the bevel, and slowly raise the handle until it starts to cut. On a winged bowl like he is doing, that cut will tear out the corners, pretty basic turning 101. On a solid standard bowl, that cut will work, and do a fair job of cutting. As long as you are rubbing the bevel, that cut can be controlled, but I would never attempt it. What causes his catch is he extends out too far off the tool rest and then he lowers his handle. The instant he comes off the bevel, you have an unsupported cutting edge pointing up into the spinning wood. DUH!!! Instant slam. Those who use the flutes up with their bowl gouge on the inside of a bowl have experienced this same catch if they come off of the bevel when riding that wing. That is the reason I never use that cut. This is also the same reason that when using scrapers on the outside of a bowl, you cut below center and have the handle high. If you have the handle low, and the cutting edge pointing up into the wood, it can work, but the instant you come off of the bevel, slamajama!!!! Of course, the higher your speed is, the more spectacular the catch is. I did try his peeling cut approach, at very slow speed on the face/top surface of a bowl, and as I have said, as long as you are rubbing the bevel, it CAN be controlled, but again, not a cut I would ever use.

So, why don't you have huge catches when you are using a SRG in a peeling cut on spindles. I have experimented with this one on spindles, using both scrapers, different gouges, and the skew. If you come off of the bevel rub with the peeling cut, you are scraping. In all cases I tried, on cylinders up to 3 inch diameter, I had no catches in the transition going from peeling to scraping cuts. I am guessing the reason there was no dramatic catch was because the tool rest is very close to the spinning wood, and the diameter and feet/minute speeds aren't what you would have when turning an 8 inch bowl, kind of like the one Robbo has. This gives you a huge leverage advantage on the handle side that Robbo didn't have when he overextended with his SRG.

So, here is my video on using a SRG on the outside of a bowl:

View: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OwlAb2BWHw8


Can they be used on the inside of a bowl? Well, I would not do it myself, in part because other tools do the job better. It can be done. It works better if you have a slight sweep to the nose rather than being straight across/square grind. Many of our BOB gouges have a ) shape to the nose. With the handle dropped so you are working on the lower edge of the tool, and the cutting edge is supported on the tool rest, it is a safe cut with a very high shear/slicing angle, and you can get very clean cuts.

As I have said, I won't use the SRG on bowls. Mostly because other tools do a better job. Peeling type cuts do not work on bowls because if you come off of the bevel, you have an unsupported cutting edge trying to do all the work. Not worth the risk to me.

Side note, if you ever had questions about taking apart your chucks, Vicmark and Nova, Robbo has 2 excellent videos on how to do that, and his are better than the ones from the manufacturers.

robo hippy
 
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