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Odie, this one for you.

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I see you are a very proficient bowl turner, Could you tell us what tools and techniques you have acquired and used over the years to turn such gorgeous bowls. I see lots of turners with all there new tools only to go back to a few good tools when they get proficient on what they are turning.
Your bowls are flawless in finish in your pictures. I find mine lots of times have compression marks on the inside that only show up after finish is applied. I turn a lot of hard curly eastern maple.
Do you find scrapers are a necessity for clean up, and do you use negative rack scrapers. I have some scrapers which I’m tempted to grind a bunch of steel away and turn into negative racks. But not sure on best angles for scrapers. I good turner once told me a 1/4 inch bowl gouge can do a lot of clean upon tight places. Unfortunately, I could not attend his class at the time.
 

john lucas

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Compression marks.on the inside are usually caused by having a sharp heel on the bevel. As your going down the bowl this sharp edge an easily burnish the wood. You dont see it while sanding. It shows up when finish is applied. Charles Alviz who was an AAW president many years ago taught me to round over that sharp corner and I've been doing it ever since. When he was president of our club he would start each meeting by saying "why are we here" and we would all answer "to have fun".
 
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Compression marks.on the inside are usually caused by having a sharp heel on the bevel. As your going down the bowl this sharp edge an easily burnish the wood. You dont see it while sanding. It shows up when finish is applied. Charles Alviz who was an AAW president many years ago taught me to round over that sharp corner and I've been doing it ever since. When he was president of our club he would start each meeting by saying "why are we here" and we would all answer "to have fun".
So after sharpening, just round that sharp edge on bottom of bevel? I’ve only noticed it in larger flat bottom platters we will call them.
 

odie

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I see you are a very proficient bowl turner, Could you tell us what tools and techniques you have acquired and used over the years to turn such gorgeous bowls. I see lots of turners with all there new tools only to go back to a few good tools when they get proficient on what they are turning.
Your bowls are flawless in finish in your pictures. I find mine lots of times have compression marks on the inside that only show up after finish is applied. I turn a lot of hard curly eastern maple.
Do you find scrapers are a necessity for clean up, and do you use negative rack scrapers. I have some scrapers which I’m tempted to grind a bunch of steel away and turn into negative racks. But not sure on best angles for scrapers. I good turner once told me a 1/4 inch bowl gouge can do a lot of clean upon tight places. Unfortunately, I could not attend his class at the time.

Thank you, Glenn.......:D

It's 12:30am here, and I'm just getting back in from the shop......spent a long day out there today! :) I just completed a black and white ebony bowl that went through some discussion about cracks and warping last year. I'll update that thread shortly.....or tomorrow!

There are a lot of questions there, and it would be hard to cover it all.....without writing a book! :rolleyes:......but, I'll contribute a few thoughts for now. (some may be controversial! :eek:)

There is that saying among woodturners that they're just one tool away from greatness! I did a lot of experimenting with different gadgets and "latest and greatest" tools a number of years ago, but I'm now back to using nothing but traditional tools in various sizes and shapes of gouges and scrapers. I have some skews that I play around with once in awhile.....but, seldom have a need for them, since I am doing nothing but bowls. I used the swept back grinds on my gouges for about 25 years, but several years ago, I completely abandoned using any of the swept back grinds......I've gone back to my roots, and am using nothing but traditional grinds on all my gouges......some with longer heels/bevels, and some with shorter bevels. (The traditional gouge grind is done with the Wolverine V-arm, and the tool rotated along it's longitudinal axis while grinding......the vari-grind jig is no longer used by me.)

I did some experimenting with exotic steels in gouges and scrapers, and have concluded that the old reliable M2 steel is the best for my turning. The reason for my beliefs on this, is an edge that lasts a little less time before needing a re-grind actually has a great advantage that most won't realize.......namely, tool steels that hold an edge for a longer period of time, will be used by the turner for a longer period of time when the tool is in that zone of not quite as sharp as it could be, and not quite dull enough to obviously needing re-ground. I've found that if I sharpen a lot more often, that my cutting edges are actually more sharp than if I were using the exotic steels. Of course, this means just resolving oneself to stopping what he was doing more often, and go back to the grinder.......I've just learned to "get over it"! :rolleyes:

Glenn......For now, that ought to be enough for getting myself in hot water with some of the "experts" that frequent this forum! In the past, I've been told just how wrong everything I do is.......but, I keep suggesting that results are the ONLY thing that really matters. :p

-----odie-----
keep on turnin'.jpg
 
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Well the new saying, you can’t catch COVID from you’re shop!


That’s funny that you say you go back to your roots. I think it was Jimmy Clewes that once told me that cbn wheels where overrated. The old blue wheels actuallly put a better cutting edge On a tool for wood turning. The jagged edge that a sharp tool has of a blue wheel is better for him to cut with and lasts longer than a razor sharp cbn wheel edge that is gone in seconds. How controversial i# that!
Thanks for your input. I’ve noticed I’ve been grabbing my old regular tools a lot more often as I seem to like the cut. And your right I can tell when it starts to get dull. The high end steel stays sharper longer but I seem to use it when I think I should sharpen instead. It seems to have a longer in between usage where it isn’t really sharp but still cuts okay.
 

hockenbery

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Changing methods of turning is hard because we rarely give the time to learn the new tool as well as we could before going back.
Myron Curtis- an outstanding architectural turn dose most of his work with small home made scrapers.
He once told me he knew he could do better work with a gouge but he could not afford to lose the income in the months he would need to get good with the gouge to match the production levels he was doing with the scrapers.

we have the luxury in non-Covid times of taking a week long class turners like Ellsworth, Bosch, Clewes, Drozda, Stirt, .... there are many others but these are folks who taught club classes in my shop. So I could see the impact on local turners...

Learning how to use the Ellsworth gouge from Ellsworth is woodturning life changing experience for many turners.
However some individuals have limitations that make it dangerous for them to try all the cuts David teaches.

If you want to turn NE bowls learn from David.
If you want to do boxes and finials learn from Cindy
If you want to do bowls like Kelly does learn from Kelly
 

odie

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If you want to do bowls like Kelly does learn from Kelly

Not everyone knows that Kelly is odie, Al......and, I'd prefer you use "odie" when referring to me.....thanks.

I am not an instructor, and don't intend to be. The only thing I care about is my own journey in woodturning, along with a little camaraderie along the way, mixed with some exchange of ideas and experiences! :D The most important thing I can't teach, even if I wanted to, is the spiritual connection between mind, hands, and machine......that cannot be taught......it can only be experienced by those who are capable of making that connection......and, some can't, and never will. :(

-----odie-----
 

hockenbery

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The most important thing I can't teach, even if I wanted to, is the spiritual connection between mind, hands, and machine......that cannot be taught......it can only be experienced by those who are capable of making that connection......and, some can't, and never will.

you can create the environment in which people can experience it. you can teach people to use their hands well enough to let the mind and heart connect

st. Francis of Assisi -
“He who works with his hands is a laborer.
He who works with his hands and his head is a craftsman.
He who works with his hands and his head and his heart is an artist.”
 

odie

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you can create the environment in which people can experience it. you can teach people to use their hands well enough to let the mind and heart connect

We are in disagreement about that, Al.........not everyone has the capability, and some who think they do, actually don't. :D

-----odie-----
 

hockenbery

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We are in disagreement about that, Al.........not everyone has the capability, and some who think they do, actually don't. :D

-----odie-----
I think we agree mostly...
Not everyone gets it.
No two people get it the same.
You have no chance at becoming the artist st Francis describes without being able to work with your hands

Creating an original turning Is a thrill few enjoy two of my original creations resulted from having been taught to turn a sphere.
 
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Like Yogi Berra said, 'you can observe a lot by watching'. That is one reason why I would love to see odie turn. He is different. Maybe not a teacher, but I could learn a lot from watching how he does things... Teaching is an art. Being able to explain things so others understand is not easy, or for every one....

robo hippy
 
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I good turner once told me a 1/4 inch bowl gouge can do a lot of clean upon tight places.

Hey Glenn, I'll give you a good deal on a Crown Powder PM 1/4" bowl gouge I bought almost 20 years ago. Has 6" of flute left. Bought when I had a bowl lathe with no tailstock and used to get in close to chuck jaws. Hardly ever used since! I would chuck rough outs on elliptical tenon and have to work outside and inside in one chuck position.
 
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Hey Glenn, I'll give you a good deal on a Crown Powder PM 1/4" bowl gouge I bought almost 20 years ago. Has 6" of flute left. Bought when I had a bowl lathe with no tailstock and used to get in close to chuck jaws. Hardly ever used since! I would chuck rough outs on elliptical tenon and have to work outside and inside in one chuck position.
Sent you a pm
 
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This post, which drifted to teaching made me reflect on my efforts in learning how to teach. I started as a lurker, reading questions, and checking out all the responses, which are highly variable because we all are different. Some of us are different than most...... Then I started asking a few questions, and even started answering some. This led to demonstrating when our club was very small, and we would do the 'who is going to demonstrate next month' bit... Probably the biggest learning for me, was the questions that were asked by the turners. This pointed out, to me, what needed to be more clear. It is a never ending process. I always wanted to be a coach...

robo hippy
 

odie

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How do you know if you have the capability or not?

Now that is a good question, Brandon.......:D

.....And the answer may be in the difference between "knowing you know', and "thinking you know".....o_O.....Those two things may seem to be either the same thing, or entirely different, within the mental concepts of different individuals.....:rolleyes:

Sigmund Freud might be able to explain it better than I can.....;).....!!!!!

-----odie-----
 
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Now that is a good question, Brandon.......:D

.....And the answer may be in the difference between "knowing you know', and "thinking you know".....o_O.....Those two things may seem to be either the same thing, or entirely different, within the mental concepts of different individuals.....:rolleyes:

Sigmund Freud might be able to explain it better than I can.....;).....!!!!!

-----odie-----
Man, I learn something every single day...my ignorance knows no bounds. I didn't even know ole Sigmund was a turner.
 
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Now that is a good question, Brandon.......:D

.....And the answer may be in the difference between "knowing you know', and "thinking you know".....o_O.....Those two things may seem to be either the same thing, or entirely different, within the mental concepts of different individuals.....:rolleyes:

Sigmund Freud might be able to explain it better than I can.....;).....!!!!!

-----odie-----
If my moms my biggest fan, I probably don’t “have it”
 

hockenbery

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If my moms my biggest fan, I probably don’t “have it”
You’ll get it.
It’s a little like being in the zone in athletics.
Only happened to me a few times when time seem to slow down as I was catching a curving line drive or backhanding a short hop. I think it is the brain speeding up. Professional athletes get there a lot.

Applications for shows often require an artist statement.
A couple sentences from mine kind of cover the feeling I get at the lathe.
“Achieving harmony of form with tree’s record of life is my vision of a successful piece. Reaching harmony of tool movement with the spinning wood is a successful day.”​
 

Randy Anderson

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Friend of mine recently started turning so helping him get started. Told him I learned early on that you need someone (other than your Mom, your kids or your neighbors) to show your work to that will tell you the truth. Your neighbors and family will likely always praise what you made and not provide constructive feedback on what you need to do different, even if and especially if they know nothing about turning. My wife turned out to be a good critic - she'll tell me something is shaped wrong or not right per her style. I have a local mentor who's been turning for many years and he will quickly tell me what's wrong with a piece and how to correct next time. I give some of my stuff away to friends and neighbors, wedding gifts, etc but when at my first market event someone was willing to spend real $ on something I made I was hooked. I didn't care near as much about the $75 for the bowl as I did they liked it enough to spend money on it and put it on their mantle. Gotta make more.
 
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My wife is a quilting artist. She produces some spectacular stuff. As such, I figured I'd tap into all of that design and color theory here in the house so I made the mistake of asking her for a critique on a bunch of the lathe work I had been doing. She said: 1) you are making your vessels just too thin. Don't you feel guilty throwing all that pretty wood away? It is something that you need to work on to get over; 2) your little containers (what we call boxes) need to have their lids come off with 2 fingers. You need 2 hands to open some of them and they have some sort of vacuum effect that makes a disgusting noise when you finally get the lid off; 3) you need to make nearly all your pieces shine more...that plain natural wood look is just not that attractive as something that shines like clean glass. She had some other suggestions but, frankly, I blacked out after these 3 very helpful suggestions and I'll never make the mistake of asking her for a recap.
 
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My wife is a quilting artist. She produces some spectacular stuff. As such, I figured I'd tap into all of that design and color theory here in the house so I made the mistake of asking her for a critique on a bunch of the lathe work I had been doing. She said: 1) you are making your vessels just too thin. Don't you feel guilty throwing all that pretty wood away? It is something that you need to work on to get over; 2) your little containers (what we call boxes) need to have their lids come off with 2 fingers. You need 2 hands to open some of them and they have some sort of vacuum effect that makes a disgusting noise when you finally get the lid off; 3) you need to make nearly all your pieces shine more...that plain natural wood look is just not that attractive as something that shines like clean glass. She had some other suggestions but, frankly, I blacked out after these 3 very helpful suggestions and I'll never make the mistake of asking her for a recap.
Most woman do not want that suction lid. It’s only for other Woodturners to show you can do it.
 

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1) you are making your vessels just too thin. Don't you feel guilty throwing all that pretty wood away? It is something that you need to work on to get over;

Making thin-wall bowls is something I put a lot of effort into at one time......until I realized nobody really cares if you can make a thin-wall bowl, except other turners. Most people would rather have a little heft to them, from what I gather. Another similar thing, is the thought that the wall thickness MUST be uniform throughout the entire bowl. That, is a bunch of hooey......because same here.....nobody cares, except a few other turners! To think I spent all that time and effort to have thin-wall bowls with uniform thickness.....it does take some skill to "follow the rules" laid out by the "herd".....but, nobody of any consequence gives a hoot....even collectors and connoisseurs don't care! :rolleyes:

-----odie-----
 

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Funny to hear you say that and happy to hear it said by someone like you. When I first started most of my bowls were by anyone's measure way too thick. Klunky and heavy. Then I got with a friend of mine that's been turning for many years and he pushed me hard to go thinner and thinner. My bowls did lose a lot of needed weight but I wasn't crazy about them feeling flimsy or fragile just so I could say it has a 3/16 wall from rim to bottom center. I want some substance to them and not feel like an eggshell. In all the bowls I've sold at local markets where you watch people handle them a lot before purchase, no one has ever commented on how nice thin consistent walls were when deciding what to buy. I know there's a subconscious appeal element that matters. They like it but don't know why but they didn't bring calipers to shop with either.

In my market, rural TN, wood species doesn't make much difference either. Birdseye maple doesn't mean top $. How will it look on my table or mantle does. I have to be very aware of my market and customers. When I sell my bowls at the local county animal rescue event day or BBQ contest they're not going to spend a lot of $ because it's mesquite turned thin. That said, I am looking at your work to try and add more "distinction" to my work - lines, curves, rims, to enhance how it will look on the mantle since online sales are a different animal and eye only appeal matters more.
 
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.....it does take some skill to "follow the rules" laid out by the "herd".....but, nobody of any consequence gives a hoot....even collectors and connoisseurs don't care! :rolleyes:
One of the best posts you have contributed. I don't think that I could agree with you more, Odie (but, mercy, don't tell my wife that I think she is correct). She also has some pretty pointed thoughts on a lot of the long and delicate finials that she sees that, she says, usually end up distracting from what should be the major focus of the work in terms of function as well as looks.
 

odie

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In all the bowls I've sold at local markets where you watch people handle them a lot before purchase.....

There is one huge advantage to selling face to face, over online sales, and that is seeing with one's own eyes is much more representative of the actual item than a photograph can ever be. Photographs can "over represent" an item for sale, as well as accentuate desirable attributes.. It's a tough situation, because your buyer needs to be satisfied with their purchase......that their money was well spent.....that they got exactly what they expected to get. Those things are much more likely, IF the purchaser sees the actual item prior to buying it......:D

The real advantage to online sales, is the clientele includes art collectors, connoisseurs, "high end" casual purchasers, and buyers representing gift shops and art galleries. The disadvantage is you don't have a "captive audience", so to speak. You must be able to compete with the best turners......very established turners......at a price point that connoisseurs of the fine arts are willing to pay.

All that being said, I MUST mention that money is, and has never been the main focus of my woodturning efforts. I definitely do want to make the sales, but I see it as a means to sustain my artistic pursuits, rather than a way to pay the bills......:eek:.......if the truth be known, I think I could make more money for my time by flipping burgers at McDonalds, than to do this......less frustrations, too! o_O

-----odie-----
 

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I suspect this thread has gotten off the intended path but it's on a path that's important to me right now so appreciate the back and forth and patience. Last year was my first year of being "in the market" with local events and shows. Had a space at the local Painted Tree market for most of the year and did about 6 local events. I sold quite a bit and at the end of the year actually made a few $. This year of course a whole different animal. Nothing. So, I've turned my attention to building up blanks for inventory for next year.

I've watched many many people buy at my in person market events. Same thing - they want to pick it up, look at it, feel the inside, weigh it in their hands, etc. Very touch and feel buying experience. Plus I like to have the story for each bowl I sell - wood from my property, found on side of road, from an old tree in downtown Memphis, saved from the burn pile, etc. Tell them how they're made, how the process works. It makes a big difference. When I say I made that in my home garage their eyes often light up and their interest goes way up. A lot of fun and satisfaction. Online sales are something I have a presence in with a web site and Etsy but unless my visual art appeal goes way up I don't see how I can compete online. Too crowded, visual quality is incredible, etc. My challenge now is do I focus on my core sweet spot of $50 - $125 bowls for the average buyer in my area or do I hunker down and try to compete online with high end craft and art pieces. Lots of investment in online and social media marketing required as well. My heart says stay focused on your local market, wait till next year and be ready. I do want to up my game for more art category things but probably not as my focus for now.
 
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A lot of good thoughts. A few thing that go against my experience. I have found some people like thin bowls and some like thicker. They seem to care. I think it is more how they feel in their hand. There is no one size fits all. If there was all bowls would be the same. Odie, I have seen you refer to the “herd”. I believe we are all part of the “herd” (including you) where some do some things different, but we learn from what others have done. I have thing that I do that may not be as most, but that is what makes me an individual. The other thing that stood out to me was V10 vs HHS in regard to sharpening. I don’t care what the steel is, when it gets dull it needs to be sharpened. V10 seems to require less sharpening, but I don’t try to push it longer because it is V10.
 
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.it does take some skill to "follow the rules" laid out by the "herd".....but, nobody of any consequence gives a hoot....even collectors and connoisseurs don't care! :rolleyes:

-----odie-----
Interesting, collectors and connoisseurs that don’t care... isn’t that an oxymoron? :confused: I know what you mean though. A lot of times we do put too much weight in things that only appeal to the minority. Did you know that following the rules laid out by the herd is called herding?
 

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The guidelines for thickness and even walls are not about design of the finished piece but about turning green wood for successful crack free drying.

Turning the walls of a NE bowl or Hollow form to 3/16” thickness allow it to dry crack free within a few days with a high degree of success. This is just the science of wood movement.

For twice turned bowls you often see beads or coves near the rims or thicker panels left for embellishment.

I encourage everyone to attend at least 1 AAW symposium. Walking through the instant gallery you will see over 1000 pieces. The deviation in designs will amaze you.
 
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Tom Gall

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My wife is a quilting artist. She produces some spectacular stuff. As such, I figured I'd tap into all of that design and color theory here in the house so I made the mistake of asking her for a critique on a bunch of the lathe work I had been doing. She said: 1) you are making your vessels just too thin. Don't you feel guilty throwing all that pretty wood away? It is something that you need to work on to get over; 2) your little containers (what we call boxes) need to have their lids come off with 2 fingers. You need 2 hands to open some of them and they have some sort of vacuum effect that makes a disgusting noise when you finally get the lid off; 3) you need to make nearly all your pieces shine more...that plain natural wood look is just not that attractive as something that shines like clean glass. She had some other suggestions but, frankly, I blacked out after these 3 very helpful suggestions and I'll never make the mistake of asking her for a recap.

Up until 2006 I did juried A&C shows for 24 years, 18 years of which were full time. A few things I noticed early on.

Women were the overwhelming majority of my customers. Women like ‘shiny’ – not necessarily glass-like but a polished surface (not talking salad bowls here – I didn’t make those).

Women like lids/covers that are removed with one-hand. Any suction-fit lids that I, and other woodturners, liked were not appreciated by most women. Many times I had to repair the finish on boxes when a lady picked up a box by the finial and 3-4 seconds later the box would drop to the floor. Floor coverings became essential.

Thinness or thickness (not excessive) didn’t seem to matter. Flowing curves and good form seem to matter to customers – even if they don’t realize it! ;)
 
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The guidelines for thickness and even walls are not about design of the finished piece but about turning green wood for successful crack free drying.

Turning the walls of a NE bowl or Hollow form to 3/16” thickness allow it to dry crack free within a few days with a high degree of success. This is just the science of wood movement.

For twice turned bowls you often see beads or coves near the rims or thicker panels left for embellishment.
If I paid as much for blanks as Odie, I’d turn them thick too.
 
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What a GREAT thread. Things I have learned:D :

1. Thin is over-rated. Unless it is the a pure art piece - and not to be handled much, or used as practical ware.
2. If you are turning green NE, 1 turn vessels it is - ..."Thin to Win!"
3. Women have always like shiny things....( diamonds included....:rolleyes: )
4. We may all be lemmings...or not. Depending on perspective, and comfort level - and the occasional need to go rogue:D
5. Odie is really "Odie-Wan-Kenobe" for design and finish work. And sometimes rogue when needed.:)
 
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I remember one show, where a woman was looking for a bread bowl. I also made some small 'shoe benches'. She came by at least 5 times, took one particular bowl in her arms, sat on the shoe bench, and mimed mixing bread with one particular bowl. She ended up saying, "this one is perfect" and bought it. I never tried to sell on line because people really need to pick bowls up and feel them.

Not sure about the shiny part for bowls. Personally I don't like shiny for daily use/utilitarian bowls. It always goes dull. The walnut oil is easy to apply and keep that matt finish.

Never liked really thin pieces. I did do a couple. At the local Saturday Market, I had to put some juggle balls in them to keep them from blowing off the shelf. I also made juggle balls and Hacky Sacks for a number of years.

For some reason, natural edge bowls and I didn't get along, unless it was more of a shallow platter and bark free. If I left the bark on it, some one would always try to pick it up by the bark....

robo hippy
 
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For some reason, natural edge bowls and I didn't get along, unless it was more of a shallow platter and bark free. If I left the bark on it, some one would always try to pick it up by the bark....
robo hippy
I make quite a few natural edge bowls/vases/etc. when the bark looks like it will cooperate because some folks seem to like them...however, I truthfully have to say that I don't enjoy fooling around with a piece while trying to keep/save the bark and I don't particularly like the look of a NE bowl over a solid turned bowl. Just my taste...but my eye goes mainly to form and finish on a piece and bark usually isn't a major player to either of these.
 
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