Looking for other opinion concerning a tip

[Don Wattenhofer]

The reply below was sent to me by a certain editor after I submitted a photo of a of a technique that guarantees that the chuck arbor will not spin in the tailstock when drilling on the lathe. The technique is inserting the long end of the chuck key handle into one of the 3 holes on the chuck and having the other end riding on the tool rest. The chuck key can also be used to ensure that the arbor doesn't break loose by pulling back on it as you retract the bit which of course is an advantage that is not present without it. The idea that the chuck key could bend or break is ridiculous considering that without it you would be depending on a tapered fit without a draw bar.
Please excuse my rant but it is hard to accept this kind of logic or should I say ilogic.
Note: I tried to down load a picture with the camera set for 12MP which has worked in the past but got the "file too big", then set at 6MP and still got the to big.



Hello Don,

Thank you for sending in this Tip. However, the solution you are presenting gave me pause and I hesitate to share it with the readership. I am not comfortable suggesting a chuck key be used in this manner, as it doesn’t seem safe. I imagine backing the bit out to clear the chips is further complicated. The bit could still get stuck in the wood, perhaps causing the chuck key to bend or break. The Morse taper of the drill chuck could still come loose from the quill. Generally, the setup feels like a questionable band-aid for the real issues, which might be a dull bit, scored or marred MT, etc., all the things discussed in Dennis Belcher’s article.

I appreciate your Tip submission, but with an abundance of caution for safety, I will have to decline to publish it.

 

[Emiliano Achaval]

A picture would help explain a bit more your tip. I'm going to paste Bill's explanation on photo sizes: "A maximum image size limit of 1920 X 1920 pixels is being implemented for images posted in the discussion forums. The maximum file size remains 1024 kB. Until now there was no limit on pixel dimensions, but we have been trending towards unnecessarily large images that are far larger than even the largest screens"
I have been writing for Woodturning UK magazine for 4 years now. Safety is number one when we write an article. What it might seem like a no brainer and or common sense to you and me, not so for someone that just got his first lathe in the shop. I have broken a few chuck keys. Since I broke the last one, many years ago, I do not use the key to do anything but what was intended for. To loosen the chuck I use the bar provided by Vicmarc. Do not feel bad about the rejection, most of us know that feeling, LOL I was rejected by the journal at least 4 times that I can think of. It was a blessing in disguise for me. I approached my friend Mark Baker and was hired as a staff writer right away. There are lots of free software that can help you shrink the size of the picture, let me know if you need any help.

 

[Mike Johnson]

The reply below was sent to me by a certain editor after I submitted a photo of a of a technique that guarantees that the chuck arbor will not spin in the tailstock when drilling on the lathe. The technique is inserting the long end of the chuck key handle into one of the 3 holes on the chuck and having the other end riding on the tool rest. The chuck key can also be used to ensure that the arbor doesn't break loose by pulling back on it as you retract the bit which of course is an advantage that is not present without it. The idea that the chuck key could bend or break is ridiculous considering that without it you would be depending on a tapered fit without a draw bar.
Please excuse my rant but it is hard to accept this kind of logic or should I say ilogic.
Note: I tried to down load a picture with the camera set for 12MP which has worked in the past but got the "file too big", then set at 6MP and still got the to big.



Hello Don,

Thank you for sending in this Tip. However, the solution you are presenting gave me pause and I hesitate to share it with the readership. I am not comfortable suggesting a chuck key be used in this manner, as it doesn’t seem safe. I imagine backing the bit out to clear the chips is further complicated. The bit could still get stuck in the wood, perhaps causing the chuck key to bend or break. The Morse taper of the drill chuck could still come loose from the quill. Generally, the setup feels like a questionable band-aid for the real issues, which might be a dull bit, scored or marred MT, etc., all the things discussed in Dennis Belcher’s article.

I appreciate your Tip submission, but with an abundance of caution for safety, I will have to decline to publish it.

Don,

I have used that same method on several occasions which is far safer then holding the Jacobs chuck firming in one hand waiting for it to catch and peel skin off your hand. I opted to use a steel pin about 4 inches long inserted into the Jacobs chuck where the other end of the pin lays on top of the tool rest and slides along as you move the tail stock in and out drilling the hole. That technique is commonly used in metal lathe work which usually imparts more forces on the drilling process of various metals.

 

[Clifton C]

Emiliano, Not doubting you for a minute, but, never having broken a jacobs chuck key, would you mind sharing the circumstances?

 

[hockenbery]

My thoughts are it’s an ok solution but generally not risk free enough to share with a wide audience.
Many chuck keys don’t fit tight enough to stay in possibly making the situation worse.
Chuck key turned the wrong way could loosen the chuck letting the bit spin (you would never have this problem) if the readers aren’t careful.

- real solution is a #3 taper in the tailstock. Jacobs chucks and bits with #3 taper don’t pull out of the #3 taper when properly seated.

#2 tapers do pull out. Using a chuck key Won’t stop them from pulling out. You need a backward presure on the chuck to keep it seated in a #2 taper when backing out.

bottom line is it works for you.

 

[john lucas]

As the former tips.editor you have to.realize that you have a huge audience and often. With limited mechanical experience. So you have.to.looknat every tip.carefully for possible safety issues. If you publish anything iffy you get a.100 letters.admonishing you. Simply not worth the hassle. When I took machine shop classes.in college we were.told.to.never ever leave a.chuck.key in a chuck after you use it. So even though it seems.safe to you im.sure others would seem it unsafe and the letters.would.pour in. It can be a hard job to.edit tip.submissions because you take a.lot of flak when you dont publish someone's tip. You simply have.to do the best you can and try to please.as.many as possible knowing you will.upset a.few.

 

[John Torchick]

There is the issue of liability. Print it...someone does it...gets hurt...sues you...tip is evidence. A "caveat" doesn't cover you. Like using a hair dryer in the bathtub.

 

[Doug Rasmussen]

Here's what you need.....

No brand name on it. It's a purchased item though, not homemade. The brass torque arm is brazed into the #2 Morse extension.

I don't see the chuck key method as especially dangerous, only a little cumbersome to keep it in position. If you want to see something ridiculously dangerous you have to look no farther than the AAW and this forum recommending removing wheel guards on bench grinders. That's something that'd cost you a hefty fine in a commercial shop if a safety inspector saw it.



There is an easy way to stop Morse tapers from spinning or pulling out. Grind a tapered flat on the Morse taper (sometimes called a whistle grind). Drill and tap the lathe quill for a set screw to contact the ground flat. The set screw positively prevents the arbor from spinning or pulling out. We modified our Morse taper drill press quills this way.

 

[Don Wattenhofer]

The first photo is the operation using a 2" carbide tipped bit and the second photo is of the arbor on the chuck.
The handle on the chuck key is 5/16" diameter and for tommy bars for my Nova chuck are also that size so one of them could be substituted. The amoujnt of torque required to bend or break a 5/16" tool steel bar does not exist on a wood turning lathe and if it did it would surely also break loose a #2 morse taper.

As the former tips.editor you have to.realize that you have a huge audience and often. With limited mechanical experience. So you have.to.looknat every tip.carefully for possible safety issues. If you publish anything iffy you get a.100 letters.admonishing you. Simply not worth the hassle. When I took machine shop classes.in college we were.told.to.never ever leave a.chuck.key in a chuck after you use it. So even though it seems.safe to you im.sure others would seem it unsafe and the letters.would.pour in. It can be a hard job to.edit tip.submissions because you take a.lot of flak when you dont publish someone's tip. You simply have.to do the best you can and try to please.as.many as possible knowing you will.upset a.few.

I acknowledge what John is saying but the chuck in this case is not supposed to turn so it is not going to be sent flying across the shop. The
"abundance of caution for safety" is questionable considering the article you recently had published about using a router mounted on a wooden fixture sliding on a wooden table without anything but the operator to hold it upto the work and yes it will work and produce good results, but it has many genuine safety concerns.
The comment by the editor that the chuck could still break loose seams strange considering that it is just as likely to break loose without the key in place plus the key can be used to prevent the chuck from breaking loose.
The second photo shows the arbor on my jacobs chuck which has a flat on the end which I believe is commonly used on machine lathes and most drill presses to prevent it breaking loose and spinning, so why don't any of the wood lathe manufactures have this feature?

 

[Don Wattenhofer]

My thoughts are it’s an ok solution but generally not risk free enough to share with a wide audience.
Many chuck keys don’t fit tight enough to stay in possibly making the situation worse.
Chuck key turned the wrong way could loosen the chuck letting the bit spin (you would never have this problem) if the readers aren’t careful.

- real solution is a #3 taper in the tailstock. Jacobs chucks and bits with #3 taper don’t pull out of the #3 taper when properly seated.

#2 tapers do pull out. Using a chuck key Won’t stop them from pulling out. You need a backward presure on the chuck to keep it seated in a #2 taper when backing out.

bottom line is it works for you.

Yup the backward pressure is applied by pulling back on the chuck key with the left hand while cranking the in reverse with the right hand.

 

[Tim Connell]

Don, you tip may not get published, but I will be using it in the future. Thanks!

 

[Emiliano Achaval]

Emiliano, Not doubting you for a minute, but, never having broken a jacobs chuck key, would you mind sharing the circumstances?

Remember that I'm from Argentina, LOL. I used a wrench to extra, super tighten it, the bit kept spinning. After about the third time, I snapped it. I now prefer the bits that are not round. Did not learn from my first lesson, kept using the wrench for leverage. Not anymore, I also have the right bits. One key was bent, not broken.

 

[Emiliano Achaval]

View attachment 33750 View attachment 33751
The first photo is the operation using a 2" carbide tipped bit and the second photo is of the arbor on the chuck.
The handle on the chuck key is 5/16" diameter and for tommy bars for my Nova chuck are also that size so one of them could be substituted. The amoujnt of torque required to bend or break a 5/16" tool steel bar does not exist on a wood turning lathe and if it did it would surely also break loose a #2 morse taper.

I acknowledge what John is saying but the chuck in this case is not supposed to turn so it is not going to be sent flying across the shop. The
"abundance of caution for safety" is questionable considering the article you recently had published about using a router mounted on a wooden fixture sliding on a wooden table without anything but the operator to hold it upto the work and yes it will work and produce good results, but it has many genuine safety concerns.
The comment by the editor that the chuck could still break loose seams strange considering that it is just as likely to break loose without the key in place plus the key can be used to prevent the chuck from breaking loose.
The second photo shows the arbor on my jacobs chuck which has a flat on the end which I believe is commonly used on machine lathes and most drill presses to prevent it breaking loose and spinning, so why don't any of the wood lathe manufactures have this feature?

Looks safe enough to me, LOL I would do something like it.

 

[Doug Rasmussen]

.............................................................................................................
- real solution is a #3 taper in the tailstock. Jacobs chucks and bits with #3 taper don’t pull out of the #3 taper when properly seated.

#2 tapers do pull out. Using a chuck key Won’t stop them from pulling out. You need a backward presure on the chuck to keep it seated in a #2 taper when backing out.

.............................................

To clarify........ #3 Morse tapers do pull out, given their larger dimensions they require a proportionately larger force to pull out than a #2 Morse.

 

[john lucas]

Ditto above. I have #3 morse tapers on my metal lathe and have had one pull out.

 

[hockenbery]

To clarify........ #3 Morse tapers do pull out, given their larger dimensions they require a proportionately larger force to pull out than a #2 Morse.

You are correct
In Average drilling done in woodturning #3 tapers will pull the drill bit out with the taper securely locked in the taper.
#2 tapers rarely pull the drill bit out without a hand pressing the bit or chuck into the taper.

 

[John Tisdale]

I regularly drill holes over 20" deep with a 2-9/26 Milwaukee Tool "Switchblade". Speed is around 200-rpm, maybe a bit less. I turn five, maybe six cranks and then back out. Takes a while but I get a hole.
Suggestion: Grind the threads off the center screw so it doesn't try to self-feed - using a hand-held drill with a long 3/8" bit with both lathe and drill running insures a reasonably straight starter hole
The beauty of the Switchblade is the replaceable bits and the quick-connect extensions. Also, the hex mating ends means a simple hand tightening on the chuck is all you need.
Only had a few problems with the #3 MT slipping - holding with a hand towel eliminates the problem

 

[Tom McClellan]

I used this tip doing a little drilling last night and it worked great, thanks Don! I made the rest parallel to the bed, adjusted rest height so that the key is 90 degree to rest where it touches so that it won't wedge itself out, then put light pressure on the key end with my left pointer finger. Can't see it coming out taking those steps and holds the drill chuck solidly.

 

[robo hippy]

Well, I don't think I have heard of any one else doing this, but if I want a hole pretty much dead on centered, I hand turn the hole size first, and slightly taper it, then start the drill bit in the chuck. I still get some drift.

As for safety, the engineer's conundrum: You can never invent some thing that is idiot proof because as soon as you do, some one else invents a better idiot.

robo hippy

 

[john lucas]

You can never invent some thing that is idiot proof because as soon as you do, some one else invents a better idiot.[/QUOTE]
I resemble that remark.

 

[RichColvin]

Drill bits will drill an OK hole, but certainly not perfect. As machinists know, drill bits flex. Combining that with materials which are not consistent (i.e., wood), and the drill’s path will be less than perfect.

I know that there are some who disagree, but I prefer an approach like robo hippy has outlined. I will drill successively bigger holes, leaving the last ⅛” to ¼” for a final drilling. By only taking off a small amount, I can get very close.

If the hole needs to be extremely concentric, then you need to turn it on a metal lathe using a boring bar. Bill Ooms wrote a good article on using a metal lathe for woodworking (in American Woodturner).

Rich

 

[Don Wattenhofer]

Remember that I'm from Argentina, LOL. I used a wrench to extra, super tighten it, the bit kept spinning. After about the third time, I snapped it. I now prefer the bits that are not round. Did not learn from my first lesson, kept using the wrench for leverage. Not anymore, I also have the right bits. One key was bent, not broken.

That technique is not exclusive to Argentina it is quite common in the non precision machinist trades to stick a box end wrench on the hande of the chuck key and that is what supplies enough torque to bend or break the bar

 

[Don Wattenhofer]

Well, I don't think I have heard of any one else doing this, but if I want a hole pretty much dead on centered, I hand turn the hole size first, and slightly taper it, then start the drill bit in the chuck. I still get some drift.

As for safety, the engineer's conundrum: You can never invent some thing that is idiot proof because as soon as you do, some one else invents a better idiot.

robo hippy

You are not alone that is the best way to get started accurately and is necessary if using extenesions (as in the longer the bit the more chance of flexing as it starts the hole) or hand held bits like gun drills.

 

[Don Wattenhofer]

I used this tip doing a little drilling last night and it worked great, thanks Don! I made the rest parallel to the bed, adjusted rest height so that the key is 90 degree to rest where it touches so that it won't wedge itself out, then put light pressure on the key end with my left pointer finger. Can't see it coming out taking those steps and holds the drill chuck solidly.

Glad to hear that it worked out for you and I bet you didn't have any safety concerns

 

[Don Wattenhofer]

If the hole needs to be extremely concentric, then you need to turn it on a metal lathe using a boring bar

Interesting the you commented on this since I have made an adapter for a boring bar to be used on the wood lathe.

 

[Tim Connell]

Interesting the you commented on this since I have made an adapter for a boring bar to be used on the wood lathe.View attachment 33780

Craft Supplies now sells a boring head and cutter set.

https://www.woodturnerscatalog.com/...Set?term=ring+boring+kit&term=ring boring kit

 

[RichColvin]

Yes, but for only $700 more, you can have a metal lathe!

 

[Dennis Weiner]

The reply below was sent to me by a certain editor after I submitted a photo of a of a technique that guarantees that the chuck arbor will not spin in the tailstock when drilling on the lathe. The technique is inserting the long end of the chuck key handle into one of the 3 holes on the chuck and having the other end riding on the tool rest. The chuck key can also be used to ensure that the arbor doesn't break loose by pulling back on it as you retract the bit which of course is an advantage that is not present without it. The idea that the chuck key could bend or break is ridiculous considering that without it you would be depending on a tapered fit without a draw bar.
Please excuse my rant but it is hard to accept this kind of logic or should I say ilogic.
Note: I tried to down load a picture with the camera set for 12MP which has worked in the past but got the "file too big", then set at 6MP and still got the to big.



Hello Don,

Thank you for sending in this Tip. However, the solution you are presenting gave me pause and I hesitate to share it with the readership. I am not comfortable suggesting a chuck key be used in this manner, as it doesn’t seem safe. I imagine backing the bit out to clear the chips is further complicated. The bit could still get stuck in the wood, perhaps causing the chuck key to bend or break. The Morse taper of the drill chuck could still come loose from the quill. Generally, the setup feels like a questionable band-aid for the real issues, which might be a dull bit, scored or marred MT, etc., all the things discussed in Dennis Belcher’s article.

I appreciate your Tip submission, but with an abundance of caution for safety, I will have to decline to publish it.

Oh, I got one of those Dear Don letters also.
In Fact, I was encouraged here by John to submit a tip over 2 years ago.
You'll find the birth of the tip here:
https://www.aawforum.org/community/index.php?threads/purchasing-a-new-bandsaw.13416/#post-131112

The editor was concerned about "safety appearances" and rejected the tip. It took a lot of work to explain that the method I used was actually safer. It just "looks" fishy. He went with that and I was in shock when I got my rejection letter.

I will be attending the AAW Virtual conference where they will be revealing the all-time best AAW tips. I wonder what the judging criteria will be?

 

[Don Wattenhofer]

Oh, I got one of those Dear Don letters also.
In Fact, I was encouraged here by John to submit a tip over 2 years ago.
You'll find the birth of the tip here:
https://www.aawforum.org/community/index.php?threads/purchasing-a-new-bandsaw.13416/#post-131112

The editor was concerned about "safety appearances" and rejected the tip. It took a lot of work to explain that the method I used was actually safer. It just "looks" fishy. He went with that and I was in shock when I got my rejection letter.

I will be attending the AAW Virtual conference where they will be revealing the all-time best AAW tips. I wonder what the judging criteria will be?

That sounds familiar except the term was "feals unsafe" , which is of course is as meaningless as "safety appearances" .
I too had another run in with this same editor, when I submitted an article about making a staved tankard. The problem was that he didn't seam to aprove of the use of a miter saw to cut the 15 staves needed for each tankard even though the blanks were clamped in place with a destaco clamp and each cut was made with all body parts safely out of the way. The bottom line is after spending countless hours photographing and explaining each part of the operation he rejected the article. Oh well he did agree to put it in the members gallery.

 

[Emiliano Achaval]

That sounds familiar except the term was "feals unsafe" , which is of course is as meaningless as "safety appearances" .
I too had another run in with this same editor, when I submitted an article about making a staved tankard. The problem was that he didn't seam to aprove of the use of a miter saw to cut the 15 staves needed for each tankard even though the blanks were clamped in place with a destaco clamp and each cut was made with all body parts safely out of the way. The bottom line is after spending countless hours photographing and explaining each part of the operation he rejected the article. Oh well he did agree to put it in the members gallery.

I'm enjoying being a staff writer for the best woodturning magazine in the world, Woodturning UK. I get to work closely with my editor on my articles, if I have a safety concern I call him, or he calls me. No more submitting and putting myself to you know is coming rejection. This months marks my foruth year working for Mark Baker, it has been an honor and a pleasure, hopefully, I have a few more years in me.

 

[Don Wattenhofer]

I'm enjoying being a staff writer for the best woodturning magazine in the world, Woodturning UK. I get to work closely with my editor on my articles, if I have a safety concern I call him, or he calls me. No more submitting and putting myself to you know is coming rejection. This months marks my foruth year working for Mark Baker, it has been an honor and a pleasure, hopefully, I have a few more years in me.

I googled Mark Baker and see that he has the background necessary to be an effective editor of a craft magazine.

 

[Dennis Weiner]

Just got an Email from AAW announcing the turning of the week. Also in the email was the Tip of the Week from their archives. Opps...one of my old tips that was accepted. How ironic!

 

[Mike Adams]

Note: I tried to down load a picture with the camera set for 12MP which has worked in the past but got the "file too big", then set at 6MP and still got the to big.

Hi Don,

Download and install XNView MP. It's a photo cataloging package that has a number of features to manipulate images, including conversions. If you convert the source image to JPG and use a lower quality setting you can shrink the filesize lower than 1MB.