Ellsworth grind and sharpening with a Tormek SVD-185

[Daniel Miller]

This question would most likely bear more fruit over at the Tormek forums, but while I wait for their admins to approve my join request, I thought I'd ask here and get some feedback from you all.

First, my understanding of bowl gouges is that when looking down the front of the gouge, you have two types of flute profiles - a kind of rounded V shape and a U-shape. Based on my experiences, I guess that based on this profile this will determine the grind angle you can produce? The Robert Sorby bowl gouge I have has the rounded V-shape flute profile.

I've had a Tormek T-3 (it's their smaller sharpener, and a generation or so back - I think T4 is the current model) and it's served me well for the 10 years that I've had it. The gouge jig I have is the SVD-185 (current version is SVD-186). When trying to create a fingernail grind with the tool, I'm basically getting a "cup" in the front part of the grind, and then as the wings are being created, there is a very pronounced "edge" at what I would call the "front" of the wings - the point of the wings closest to the middle of the flute at the front of the gouge. I don't have a picture of the gouge available at the moment, so I've attached a crude and more exaggerated drawing of the condition.

I'm wondering if I just haven't ground enough of the wings down far enough, though when I've tried to take more off of the wings at that point that is created, it doesn't seem that it's making that transition from "front" to "wings" any smoother and cleaner, like what you see in everybody else's pictures or videos of their fingernail gouge profiles. It's also made me wonder if the rounded V flue profile just isn't capable of having this type of profile based on the geometry of its flute profile, and perhaps the U-shaped profile is the only gouge capable of having a fingernail grind. I can't test this because of the bowl gouges that I have, their flute profiles are all V-shaped.

 

[hockenbery]

The best flute design for the Ellsworth grind is the parabolic flute.
The Jamison gouge and the robust gouge both have this as well as the Henry Taylor.

the edge of any gouge should have a continuous convex curve wing end to wing end. Flat is allowed but no dips.

Holding the gouge in one spot on the wheel will cause a dip.

There is less steel under the nose of the gouge so if you grind wing end to wing end the tip will ge ground more than the wings creating the dip. Over time I developed a technique of lifting the gouge a tiny bit as I pass ove the nose.

I teach students to begin sharpening the bowl gouge with a jig -
grind each wing twice then make one pass wing end to win end.
This will keep the tip from getting ground too much.

The tip should be nicely rounded if it gets sort of beaky it hasn’t been ground enough so grind it round without grinding the wings

vee flutes don’t work real well with the Ellsworth grind. While you can get a usable Ellsworth grind on a vee fluted gouge, the tip is too pointy to get the most out of the Ellsworth grind whose best feature is the leading edge of the wing you get on a parabolic fluted gouge.

 

[Daniel Miller]

The best flute design for the Ellsworth grind is the parabolic flute.
The Jamison gouge and the robust gouge both have this as well as the Henry Taylor.

the edge of any gouge should have a continuous convex curve wing end to wing end. Flat is allowed but no dips.

Holding the gouge in one spot on the wheel will cause a dip.

There is less steel under the nose of the gouge so if you grind wing end to wing end the tip will ge ground more than the wings creating the dip. Over time I developed a technique of lifting the gouge a tiny bit as I pass ove the nose.

I teach students to begin sharpening the bowl gouge with a jig -
grind each wing twice then make one pass wing end to win end.
This will keep the tip from getting ground too much.

The tip should be nicely rounded if it gets sort of beaky it hasn’t been ground enough so grind it round without grinding the wings

vee flutes don’t work real well with the Ellsworth grind. While you can get a usable Ellsworth grind on a vee fluted gouge, the tip is too pointy to get the most out of the Ellsworth grind whose best feature is the leading edge of the wing you get on a parabolic fluted gouge.

I need to do more research on the different flute designs and what angles/profiles work best for each. I have been buying bowl gouges based on what I've thought that I needed, and most of what Craft Supplies and similar stores sell seem to be the V-shape. After reading your response, I did do a quick google search for parabolic flute to see what sort of resources I could find, and I did see your post http://www.aawforum.org/community/index.php?threads/bowl-gouge-flute-shapes.13055/ where you mentioned Peter Child's article about flute designs. Do you happen to know any other sources of information for what flute type works best with what angle? Basically... since I have the Tormek and the accompanying guide book, it basically says "set the jig to use x-settings and you'll get x-profile shape". The obvious problem that I've run into with this is that the book doesn't say "well, if you have a V-shaped flute profile, grind angles x and y aren't really capable of being used unless you have a parabolic/etc flute shape instead". It would be very useful to have a resource that shows what angles and shapes are capable of being produced for different flute shapes. I just don't know if that source exists...

I also really appreciate you pointing how the rotation of the gouge! I'm that guy who grinds wing to wing because that's what all the videos for Tormek and Wolverine jigs show you to do, and I'm just mimicking that! It's helpful to know that this isn't something you should do for every grind, and that is probably precisely why I'm getting that "cup" at the nose of my flute.

 

[robo hippy]

That little cup by the nose comes from spending too much time on the spot rather than a quick flip over. With a half circle flute shape, you keep the same roll rate. With a more V or parabolic flute shape, medium time on the nose, minimal time in the dip area, and more time on the wing. I do talk about that in my platform sharpening video.

robo hippy

 

[hockenbery]

parabolic flutes:
Craft Supplies sells the Henry taylor gouges.
The Robust bowl gouge has a parabolic flute
The Lyle Jamieson has a parabolic flute (made by Thompson) my favorite but I use the ones above too.
Also the Ellsworth signature gouges (crown)
Packard woodworks carries parabolic flutes by several manufactures.

would be very useful to have a resource that shows what angles and shapes are capable of being produced for different flute shapes. I just don't know if that source exists...

I don’t know of any references that approach it from flute design first.

Check out David Ellsworth’s article page 17 December 2019 - American Woodturner

Joe Larese’s article on gouges seems timeless.
http://inwwoodturners.com/wp-content/uploads/guidetogouges.pdf

I have a few diagrams of the flutes in these slides.
http://aaw.hockenbery.net/tgouge intro.pdf

 

[John Torchick]

.... Check out David Ellsworth’s article page 17 December 2019 - American Woodturner .....

Good reading with great photos. I recommend it.

 

[Dennis J Gooding]

I have never used the Tormek jigs, only the Varigrind jig and their work-alikes, but I believe that the following comment applies. When you find that your have lost control of the grind and are correcting too much in all the wrong places, it sometimes helps to stop, turn the gouge over and grind the horizontal profile that you are trying to achieve, DAMHIK. Then re-jig and selectively grind to eliminate the flat spots on the edge.

By the way, maybe this is old news, but I just learned from viewing pictures of the Tormek jigs that their grinding geometry is not generally the same as that of the Varigrind jig. They ARE equivalent only if the gouge protrusion is adjusted so that the tip of the gouge is in line with the swing axis. (In the case of the Varigrind jig, the swing axis automatically runs between the gouge tip and the tip of the pivot arm.)

 

[Dean Center]

Glenn Lucas has considerable information on using the Tormek for sharpening turning tools. He has preferred shapes for his personal and signature gouges, but his teaching is broader in scope. He has a DVD on sharpening and he covers sharpening at many of the symposia where he presents. There may be other sources for his teaching.

BTW, I'm under the impression that all of the English made gouges have a parabolic flute. I know my Crowns do.

 

[Dennis J Gooding]

Glenn Lucas has considerable information on using the Tormek for sharpening turning tools. He has preferred shapes for his personal and signature gouges, but his teaching is broader in scope. He has a DVD on sharpening and he covers sharpening at many of the symposia where he presents. There may be other sources for his teaching.

BTW, I'm under the impression that all of the English made gouges have a parabolic flute. I know my Crowns do.

As it happens, I reviewed this video and Glenn's previous one for the AAW Woodturner some years ago.

 

[Bill Boehme]

I've been using my Tormek for about 15 years to get a faithful reproduction of the Ellsworth grind that very closely matches the grind produced by the Ellsworth jig. Whether you're using the Tormek jig, the Ellsworth jig, The Varigrind jig, the Hannes Tool Vector jig, or freehand sharpening you need to have a gouge with the right flute profile ... commonly called parabolic, but it could be elliptical since the difference is insignificant. Also, a parabola isn't a single curve, but rather a family of curves that can be wide or narrow ... so you need to have the "right" parabolic profile. Al mentioned all the gouges that I am familiar with that are suitable for sharpening with an Ellsworth grind. You can put swept back wings on gouges with other flute shapes and they will be perfectly usable, but I don't think that they are quite as versatile as the Ellsworth profile.

I have the Tormek SVD-184, SVD-185, and SVD-186 gouge jigs. The SVD-186 is nice because it will handle larger diameter gouges. It also has a marked jig position 6 while it had to extrapolated on the earlier jigs. Here are the settings that I use:

• JS = 6
• P = 75 mm
• α = 60°

 

[Doug Freeman]

I use the Grizzly wet grinder with the Tormek jigs, I have the 185 and 186. I have the Jamieson gouge, a Crown Razor bowl gouge 5/8” shaft, and several Benjamins Best bowl gouges, and all of them have parabolic flutes. Cant help you with a V flute really, other than to reiterate what others said - any dip is caused by you spending too much time in that spot.

All of the above gouges have long wing Ellsworth type grinds. I’ll get my settings and some pics later. The wet grinders are great for resharpening but are incredibly slow for initial shaping or reshaping. I use an 8” slow speed and the Tormek BGM-100 for this work, then use the wet grinder for final sharpening. The jig settings are the same for the slow speed bench and the wet grinder.

 

[Daniel Miller]

parabolic flutes:
Craft Supplies sells the Henry taylor gouges.
The Robust bowl gouge has a parabolic flute
The Lyle Jamieson has a parabolic flute (made by Thompson) my favorite but I use the ones above too.
Also the Ellsworth signature gouges (crown)
Packard woodworks carries parabolic flutes by several manufactures.


I don’t know of any references that approach it from flute design first.

Check out David Ellsworth’s article page 17 December 2019 - American Woodturner

Joe Larese’s article on gouges seems timeless.
http://inwwoodturners.com/wp-content/uploads/guidetogouges.pdf

I have a few diagrams of the flutes in these slides.
http://aaw.hockenbery.net/tgouge intro.pdf

I was actually reading that article a couple of weeks ago. Really great information!

I have never used the Tormek jigs, only the Varigrind jig and their work-alikes, but I believe that the following comment applies. When you find that your have lost control of the grind and are correcting too much in all the wrong places, it sometimes helps to stop, turn the gouge over and grind the horizontal profile that you are trying to achieve, DAMHIK. Then re-jig and selectively grind to eliminate the flat spots on the edge.

By the way, maybe this is old news, but I just learned from viewing pictures of the Tormek jigs that their grinding geometry is not generally the same as that of the Varigrind jig. They ARE equivalent only if the gouge protrusion is adjusted so that the tip of the gouge is in line with the swing axis. (In the case of the Varigrind jig, the swing axis automatically runs between the gouge tip and the tip of the pivot arm.)

I've considered picking up the Varigrind because it isn't limited in the way that the SVD-185 is. Where the Varigrind can freely swing all the way over from one side to the other, the SVD-185, because it is attached to the support bar, can't swing all the way over to the left side because where one of the support posts are, it prohibits the jig from moving further to the left, so trying to create a 60deg angle with it causes the gouge to roll off the right of the wheel, as I mentioned before. That may be the method I take... using the Varigrind for those bigger angles and the SVD for other gouges with smaller angles.

I've been using my Tormek for about 15 years to get a faithful reproduction of the Ellsworth grind that very closely matches the grind produced by the Ellsworth jig. Whether you're using the Tormek jig, the Ellsworth jig, The Varigrind jig, the Hannes Tool Vector jig, or freehand sharpening you need to have a gouge with the right flute profile ... commonly called parabolic, but it could be elliptical since the difference is insignificant. Also, a parabola isn't a single curve, but rather a family of curves that can be wide or narrow ... so you need to have the "right" parabolic profile. Al mentioned all the gouges that I am familiar with that are suitable for sharpening with an Ellsworth grind. You can put swept back wings on gouges with other flute shapes and they will be perfectly usable, but I don't think that they are quite as versatile as the Ellsworth profile.

I have the Tormek SVD-184, SVD-185, and SVD-186 gouge jigs. The SVD-196 is nice because it will handle larger diameter gouges. It also has a marked jig position 6 while it had to extrapolated on the earlier jigs. Here are the settings that I use:

• JS = 6
• P = 75 mm
• α = 60°

Couple of questions Bill.... which size Tormek are you using? My T3 is a smaller one, so I'm discovering that I can't really do angles above 50deg because the jig can only slide so far to the left because of the support bar getting in the way. With the limited movement, it prevents grinding the left side of the gouge because the gouge will roll off the right of the wheel. Second, I'm not familiar with the 196 and a Google search didn't come up with anything. What jig is this?

 

[Bill Boehme]

..... which size Tormek are you using? My T3 is a smaller one, so I'm discovering that I can't really do angles above 50deg because the jig can only slide so far to the left because of the support bar getting in the way. With the limited movement, it prevents grinding the left side of the gouge because the gouge will roll off the right of the wheel. Second, I'm not familiar with the 196 ....

I have the Tormek SuperGrind 2000. It has been updated with the improved horizontal base, the quick lock for the grindstone, and improved bar with micro adjustment. Other than the color of the paint and labels, it's exactly the same as the T-7. I also have the water tray used on the T-7, but I don't use it because the old style water tray is much better for sharpening woodturning tools. The new style water tray interferes with sharpening some bowl gouges with swept back wings, but it is superior for sharpening long knives, jointer blades, and planer blades. I have been trying out a CBN wheel. It has advantages and disadvantages. Overall, I prefer the Tormek grindstones.

I have seen the T-3, but never used one. I've heard rumors that it has a tendency to slightly flex under heavy load and is most suited for sharpening knives.

I think that the 196 must be something made by gremlins who were typing in the dark.

 

[Doug Freeman]

I use 3 different angles/settings with the SVD-186:

75° JS=6 P=65mm
60° JS=6 P=75mm
40° JS=3 P=75mm

The 40° and 60° have swept wings, the 75° has a little sweep to prevent catches, its used as a bottom feeder. Since I have the Grizzly, I can't help you with things hitting when swinging left other than sometimes I have to remove the closer tool bar clamp to get to the correct position for some tools. It works since I don't have to apply much pressure - all of my gouges have the bevel heel ground back leaving only ~1/16" bevel actually being sharpened on the stone. As for the SVD-185 it does have 6 JS positions, but the 186 does do wider tools and has a better tool clamp, which is why I picked one up.

 

[Bill Boehme]

As for the SVD-185 it does have 6 JS positions, but the 186 does do wider tools and has a better tool clamp, which is why I picked one up.

I noticed that when I went out to the garage to see if my memory had failed me ... again (and it had), but then forgot to correct my post. Thanks for clarifying that.

 

[Dean Center]

Here's one youtube video of Glenn Lucas and the Tormek.

View: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eE2x6hAgBjY

 

[Dave Hulett]

glad to see I'm not alone in using the Tormek SVD 186 with on a Delta slow speed grinder (8" wheels) using a Tormek bench grinder mounting set. Love it. I grind my Crown Ellsworth gouge, a Hurricane of the same size, along with Thompson 3/8' gouge all with the same settings.