Help me mate up my segments for a good ring

[Mark Jundanian]

I didn't have my blade stabilizers on...

What are these?

 

[Bill Boehme]

What are these?

It's a flat disk about 3 or 4 inches in diameter that is used like a large flat washer against the side of the blade to improve stiffness and dampen vibrations.

 

[Bill Vanderhoof]

John Lucas
Looked at your pix and I think that the pieces may be drifting toward the blade when you cut them. How wide are your segments in the pics? I have a slight problem when cutting wider segments. I think that the wider segments are difficult to control and if they shift a bit it can throw the angle off slightly. I put some small toggle clamps on the fences of the wedgie sled and this helps. Don't put too much forward pressure on the piece when cutting. Too much pressure will cause the piece to twist off the face of the fence and cause an inconsistent cut. Let the blade do the cutting.
Bill V

 

[john lucas]

the blade stabilizers are basically 4" wide washers that stiffen the blade. I notice a big difference when ripping long boards with a thin kerf blade. OK not a huge difference but if you measure the width with calipers you get almost no difference in width with the stabilizers on. With them off I get a fairly noticeable variation. When I'm ripping off veneer strips is when I notice it the most. It's interesting in that the gaps are only on the thin side of the wedges on every one of them. Next time I do it I will number them again and see if it happens more often of all the time against one fence of the wedgie.

 

[Bernie Hrytzak]

I finally had time to tune up my table saw after the big move. So I started a segmented project just to see how it works. I cut a 24 segment ring using the seg easy. This time for interest sa

ke I numbered the rings so I could keep them in order and get the same side up. I did not put my Forest blade on but this was a good sharp blade. Interesting. When I put the ring together it seemed like it fit perfectly. then I flipped it over. There were 3 or 4 joints that had an .008" gap. I

I finally had time to tune up my table saw after the big move. So I started a segmented project just to see how it works. I cut a 24 segment ring using the seg easy. This time for interest sake I numbered the rings so I could keep them in order and get the same side up. I did not put my Forest blade on but this was a good sharp blade. Interesting. When I put the ring together it seemed like it fit perfectly. then I flipped it over. There were 3 or 4 joints that had an .008" gap. I used a feeler gauge to find out. Very slight and only on part of the segment. I talked to my friend Rod Smith who does wonderful segmented vessels and we have looked at issues like this before. I think I was feeding the wood at a different rate and possibly flexing the blade. I didn't have my blade stabilizers on which I use when I cut segments with my Forest blade. Any way I thought you would find this interesting.

Hi John,
It appears that in the area where you have gaps, the segments might not be lined up against the clamp, this could throw off the included angle of the ring. When I look at the inside diameter formed by the segments, it appears to be a jagged edge in the problem area. Don't know what could have caused this, perhaps the screw portion of the band clamp in the area or the glue had set up on some of the segments prior to clamping.

 

[john lucas]

Yes that's a problem I deal.with. normally I tap.on the inside and drive all.the segments out to match. The hole was too small in this one. I also didnt use as much glue and the glue had grabbed on many of the segments.

 

[Don Wattenhofer]

One observation that I have concerning the various TS sled methods is it true that the stick is held rather then the piece being cut? If that is the case then you must end up with a lot of ends to short to hold on to, where as the method I have settled on holds the piece being cut so the only thing left is to small to make a segment.

 

[Robin Thompson]

I see the same thing Bernie pointed out. How i avoid the gear assembly from deforming the rings is to insert a piece of PVC edge banding around the segmented ring before i tighten the clamp. It helps apply even pressure around the ring at all points.

 

[Don Wattenhofer]

Yes that's a problem I deal.with. normally I tap.on the inside and drive all.the segments out to match. The hole was too small in this one. I also didn't use as much glue and the glue had grabbed on many of the segments.

I have always brought the segments into alignment by tapping on the outside and I tend to use more glue which seams to allow the joints to slide easier.

 

[George Stratton]

Every bowl or vessel that I make with segments or staves has been glued up in two halves so the flat surface can be touched up before glueing them together. No gaps that way. And really no need to clamp them as you assemble if you coat both sides of a segment and slide them together till they seat just using hand pressure. On staves I assemble them flat, edge to edge on 3 strips of painters tape, apply glue between them, and roll up to a half round and tighten the tape to the other side. Stretch the tape and all the glue is sqeezed out. This could be done on segments as well. Just the way I learned I guess.

 

[Mike Johnson]

On larger segment rings I use a 1-inch wide ratchet hold down strap that can adjust to any size needed and it tightens up to any tension needed and puts an even pressure all the way around the segment ring. I usually put a small amount of tension on the ring and then tap all of the segments flat against the surface of the work surface and then tighten the ratchet strap up the rest of the way.

 

[Jerry Bennett]

I have been working on segmented pieces for a little over 6 months now, and I have purchased two pretty darn nice jigs to produce segments with but I am still having trouble getting a ring that I can glue together as cut--i typically end up gluing up two half rings and having to run them against the disc sander to make a ring without gaps in it. The first jig I got was the Accu-Slice and Accu Wedge for my bandsaw: http://www.accu-slice.com/ --John Manura-the maker has been fantastic at trying to help me--he actually cut several segmented rings on his Laguna Bandsaw, and he has a Rikion at his office shop, and since I have a Rikon 326 he actually took my system and mounted it on his Rikon and cut a ring that fit fine--he is not a fan of the Rikon, and talked me through a lot of adjustments I should make on my Rikon-which I did, and despite all of this when I cut the segments for a ring on my Accu-Wedge, it will not piece together without unacceptable gaps.

The second jig I went with is the 'Wedgie Sled', I first built one myself, and when I couldn't make good segment rings with the segments made with it, I purchased a Wedgie Sled from Pete Marken: https://www.petemarkenwoodturning.com/ I have checked my table saw and am running a Forrest Blade and still only get about 1 of 4 segment groups that make a ring without unacceptable gaps.
I am fairly meticulous, although a pig for neatness--and I am picky about the accuracy of my tools--so I would like any insight/advice/thoughts on what I might be more meticulous about or check in my process--I am liking what I have been able to make so far for segmented pieces but I hate having to 'massage' my segments to get whole rings without gaps. And oh yeah one other thing I will mention, I made several rings that required larger pieces for the segments and cut the segments on my Bosch Miter Saw-and they went together fine--I really don't know if the larger pieces makes things easier to fit or if the Miter Saw just eliminates something I am messing up on the other methods--BTW a typical segment is 1.5" or under for the rings I am building.

Thanks for any input/advice

Hi Don, I’ll bet I can answer any questions you have about the Wedgie sled.
First have you watched the Segmentology videos? The track runner must fit snuggly in the track, the Wedgie must engage the fences fully to be accurate, the strip must not be flipped, alternate the segments as shown in the video to minimize errors in the verticality of the blade. These things are usually the problem. There should be no adjustments required, only cleaning up the fuzzies. Always check the fit with a rubber band before gluing. If there is an error, compare the segments with each other. If they are exactly the same, the angle between the fences is off for some reason. Sometimes the strip can slip if not held firmly and cause slight errors.
You certainly send me a photo of your setup and one of a ring and I can usually figure out what is happening. It will be something simple.
Jerry

 

[Jerry Bennett]

Hi John,
It appears that in the area where you have gaps, the segments might not be lined up against the clamp, this could throw off the included angle of the ring. When I look at the inside diameter formed by the segments, it appears to be a jagged edge in the problem area. Don't know what could have caused this, perhaps the screw portion of the band clamp in the area or the glue had set up on some of the segments prior to clamping.

Dont know about the others but I dont have any problems with 8nor even 12 segments. Its 16 and 24 where i have problems.

John, for the higher segment numbers, a homemade Wedgie is usually not accurate enough. If the angle between the fences is not exactly the segment angle, the ring will not fit. It will not be the saw, the blade or anything else.
Jerry

 

[john lucas]

Jerry I made my angles using a Machinist Sine bar and then checked them afterwords. I think they are accurate but I'm definitely not a master machinist. But I will try to compare them to my friends angles. His are made on a computer controlled cutter.

 

[Jerry Bennett]

Jerry I made my angles using a Machinist Sine bar and then checked them afterwords. I think they are accurate but I'm definitely not a master machinist. But I will try to compare them to my friends angles. His are made on a computer controlled cutter.

If your triangles are accurate, your segments would be accurate.

 

[Don Wattenhofer]

Jerry Bennett said (the strip must not be flipped, alternate the segments as shown in the video to minimize errors in the verticality of the blade.) It seams like the first thing to do would be to square up the blade so it is cutting dead on 90 degrees, which is an easier adjustment then getting the cut dead on parallel to the miter slot.
I use a home made auxiliary wood table that includes a low fence, a fixed stop and a Destaco clamp to hold the segment being cut that I mount on my miter saw. The saw is first checked for square cut on both the vertical and horizontal then I set the angle and check that with a digital protractor. The next step is to mount the table onto the saw, cut the angle on the stop block, determine a position for the stop block and attach the block and clamp. The next step is to run a test with cheap wood like poplar and when I have a complete set dry fit, then look for a bad fit. A fine correction can be made by partially loosening the angle lock and tapping with a rubber hammer. The advantages of this system (1) you can cut the entire stripp down to a scarp smaller than the segment safely and accurately. (2) No worries about slop or wear in the miter slot. (3) No worries about the miter slot being none parallel to the blade and (4) for me anyway I already had a quality miter saw, some Destaco clamps and I didn't need to buy an expensive jig.

 

[Tim Hunter]

I found this aging thread and thought I’d share my segment fixture and method:
https://owwm.org/viewtopic.php?f=5&t=221102

Tim