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Help me mate up my segments for a good ring

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I have been working on segmented pieces for a little over 6 months now, and I have purchased two pretty darn nice jigs to produce segments with but I am still having trouble getting a ring that I can glue together as cut--i typically end up gluing up two half rings and having to run them against the disc sander to make a ring without gaps in it. The first jig I got was the Accu-Slice and Accu Wedge for my bandsaw: http://www.accu-slice.com/ --John Manura-the maker has been fantastic at trying to help me--he actually cut several segmented rings on his Laguna Bandsaw, and he has a Rikion at his office shop, and since I have a Rikon 326 he actually took my system and mounted it on his Rikon and cut a ring that fit fine--he is not a fan of the Rikon, and talked me through a lot of adjustments I should make on my Rikon-which I did, and despite all of this when I cut the segments for a ring on my Accu-Wedge, it will not piece together without unacceptable gaps.

The second jig I went with is the 'Wedgie Sled', I first built one myself, and when I couldn't make good segment rings with the segments made with it, I purchased a Wedgie Sled from Pete Marken: https://www.petemarkenwoodturning.com/ I have checked my table saw and am running a Forrest Blade and still only get about 1 of 4 segment groups that make a ring without unacceptable gaps.
I am fairly meticulous, although a pig for neatness--and I am picky about the accuracy of my tools--so I would like any insight/advice/thoughts on what I might be more meticulous about or check in my process--I am liking what I have been able to make so far for segmented pieces but I hate having to 'massage' my segments to get whole rings without gaps. And oh yeah one other thing I will mention, I made several rings that required larger pieces for the segments and cut the segments on my Bosch Miter Saw-and they went together fine--I really don't know if the larger pieces makes things easier to fit or if the Miter Saw just eliminates something I am messing up on the other methods--BTW a typical segment is 1.5" or under for the rings I am building.

Thanks for any input/advice
 
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Don,

I have had good luck with using an Incra miter just so long as you get it set up correctly for your table saw slots.
They make several versions which can provide highly accurate angle degree cuts for segment work.
 
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Don, I've not done any segmenting, nor am I familiar with the jigs, but one thing that causes problems with any angled cuts is holding the wood and having it move. After years of hand holding things for angled cuts on the table saw and having problems, everything is clamped tight before it is cut.

Wouldn't see this with miter saw as you are coming down on the wood vs pushing it into the blade with table and band saw.
 
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Mike I have an Incra 5000 sled and I ran into and undesirable obstacle in making a stop block--Incra advised me to make an extended sacrificial fence and clamp that to the Incra 5000 fence and put a stop block on the cutoff sled side--didn't try that yet
Tim, I am clamping the workpiece in all approaches--thanks though fella's!
 
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Don’t kill yourself trying to get the rings perfect right off the saw. Each piece needs some sanding to remove saw marks and minor tweaking. Malcolm Tibbets is a big fan of the disc sander while I like the manual method with sandpaper glued to MDF.

If your half rings are consistently off the sled may need adjusting. Having to remove more from the inside of the ring is better than the outside. If it’s the outside the segment is slightly smaller width wise.

I made my own sleds, one for 15 and one for 30 degrees that are fixed. I still need to sand and play around with the segments. Just make sure you have enough stock to make more if need be.
 
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Thanks Don, I will double check and see if my sled might need tweaking.....appreciate the input-I generally sand my segments on a sanding plate on the bench.
 
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Don, if you are using a wedgie sled, you have to realize that the pieces are cut in pairs. You must join one of each pair together to get perfect joints. This can mean cutting extra pieces if you are doing a pattern in the rings.
By the way, Malcom Tibbetts no longer sands his pieces, He uses a very expensive mitre saw that is set perfectly. (He did a demo at our club a number of years ago.)
 
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I have built three wedge sleds and the key is setting the correct angle between each fence. The fence away from you MUST be of uniform width because you are setting the angle between the first fence and the back of the second fence and if the second fence is not uniform, the angle of the wedge cut on the second fence will not be correct.
Testing: When the fence is set, cut some wide stock for say making 90 degree ring. (12 segment you need 4) If they don't make 90 and it short on the inside, you need to close the angle between fences -- either the setting is wrong or 2d fence is not uniform. If more then 90 open the fence.--I think I got that correct.!!!
Being cheap I made all my own angles, if time were taken into the equation, Jerry's are cheap. I can cut wedges for 8,9,10,12,15,16,18,20,24,30,32,36.40,45,48,60,and 64 segment rings. When a pattern is used to set the fences, I would check for 90. If I had to tweak the angle between the fences and then recut my pattern wedge. All of my pattern wedges are right triangles which made them easier to make. I also could get very close using trig to get the angles. Had a ring glued up the other day that ending up having gaps. found it had only 23 instead of 24 segment.:(
I also make rings that consist of different size wedges, ie 12 and 24, or 12, 24, 36. etc. The only thing is you got to end up with 360 degrees.
Hope this helps.
Bob
Ps, I understood this even if you don't:p:confused:o_O
Pss
My last sled did not use the circle slot to adjust, I used a t-track and made slots in the fences. Worked much better than other two.
 

john lucas

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I understand. My fences are exactly the same on my set easy but it is possible that the holes could be off a hair. The seg easy is so far the easiest jig I've built second to fine tuning the segments with a jig on the disc sander. Like the original.question uncut 10nrings and at least 2 will.not fit gap. Generally only takes a light touch on the disc sander to close the ring but very frustrating.
 
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One thing that comes to my mind; Are your miter gauge slots parallel to the saw blade. A slight mis-alignment will throw the angles off a bit but a bit off is too much. 24 segments off by .1 deg on each segment equals is an error of 2.4 deg which will leave a noticeable gap. I also made the wedgie sled and the first set of wedges that I cut came together perfectly. bottom view.jpg
Bill V
 
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Ditto what Gary said about the pieces being dead square and parallel in both thickness and width.
I use my Makita miter saw with an extra table and fence mounted on top of the table which allows me to mount a toggle clamp for the piece being cut and a fixed stop cut at the angle being used. To keep from cutting through the auxiliary table I use the depth stop on the saw. Before mounting the fixture take a piece of wood such as a 2 x 4 and joint the flat and 1 edge and use that to tune the 90 degree cuts on the table and fence (I use machinist square to check the cutts). The next step is to accurately set the angle (I usually do 8 segments so I can use the 22 1/2 degree stop). Now you can mount the jig and run a test with some plain wood then assemble into a circle and clamp with a hose clamp. The dry assembly should show you which direction the angle needs to be tweaked (my aux table is screwed down outboard of the saw table so I release the angle stop and tap with a rubber hammer). When the adjustment is made try another test and when a gap free dry assembly is accomplished you can move on to the good stuff. This method gives me good tight joints with out any sanding adjustments.
 

john lucas

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Dont know about the others but I dont have any problems with 8nor even 12 segments. Its 16 and 24 where i have problems.
 
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Don, if you are using a wedgie sled, you have to realize that the pieces are cut in pairs. You must join one of each pair together to get perfect joints. This can mean cutting extra pieces if you are doing a pattern in the rings.
By the way, Malcom Tibbetts no longer sands his pieces, He uses a very expensive mitre saw that is set perfectly. (He did a demo at our club a number of years ago.)
There's that word, "expensive." :eek: I want to get into segmenting for pen blanks. I find this thread and replies to be very helpful. Need to make a sled for the TS or BS.
 
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If you number the pieces as you cut them and then re-assemble them in order you will get better results and tighter joints.
Bill V
Agreed, I use a wedgie sled on my table saw and I line the pieces up on top of my guide after a quick cleanup on sandpaper. Then I set them in a row arranged wedge up in order, clamp the row up and brush both sides with glue. Then I can start setting them up in a circle and band them up.
 
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There's that word, "expensive." :eek: I want to get into segmenting for pen blanks. I find this thread and replies to be very helpful. Need to make a sled for the TS or BS.
In reply to your comment about expensive keep in mind that most miter saws can be trued up but if there is side play in the pivot mechanism as you lower the saw into the cut then it probably will not work. I got into using a miter saw after reading M T's book but I don't remember if it said anything about holding the piece being cut, so my first experiences were picking up the pieces that flew out.
 
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Thanks for the input folks, this info gives me a couple things to check at least---the Accu-Wedge is the one that confounds me the most---I am going to take it to a friends shop and test it on his Laguna saw, hopefully that is NOT the issue, but I am suspecting my Rikon bandsaw.
 
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I’ve actually considered that Gary, and I can’t figure a way to do that, I’ve even asked John Manura, the manufacturer of the Accu-Slice products, and if you look at some of his You-Tube videos you’ll see that he cuts highly accurate segments consistently, so I’m thinking my Rikon is the short straw in that bale of hay!
 
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Bill, how would you recommend truing up your miter slots to your bandsaw blade?

I need all the help I can get!
 

john lucas

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You can adjust the table to make it parallel.to the blade but if your bandsaw isnt adjusted properly the blade wont run true. It's called blade drift. It can be challenging some times.
 
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Here’s how I made my own and to eliminate play I fixed the arms to 15 degrees. The sled goes on the left side of the blade.

Get a piece of MDF about 20 long by 24 wide. Add a runner for your miter slot and leave enough on the right over the blade. Slide the sled so the base will square the sled to the blade. I only have one fence and flip the wood.

The right side of the sled is where you will set your angles. Get a protractor set to 15 degrees and the angle starting at the top right about 7 or 8 inches from the top to the bottom left corner. Place the fence behind the line and screw down with 1 screw at the top so the fence can be adjusted. Screw down the bottom and make some test cuts. I measure the segment angle with the protractor and adjust the bottom so the segments are 15 degrees. If the segments look good I will cut 12 segments and see how the ring looks. If need be you can make any adjustments but if the segments are at 15 degrees then the ring will line up. If all is good screw down the fence.

The fence should be high and wide enough so it doesn’t get cut in half when you cut. I set my fence and have a 1 inch or so block so the segments don’t get trapped between the blade and fence. I made a guide for the different widths I use to set the spacer.

I make the initial cut to set the angle then start cutting flipping the boar. I found this works well and with a little touch up the segments line right up.

I have a 74 PM TS so there is a little play in the miter slot so it’s hard to get an after market sled to work well.

It’s worth giving it a shot.
 
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Don
I don't use the bandsaw for cutting segments. I use the table saw. My table can be adjusted so the miter slots are parallel to the saw blade plate. The band saw leaves the cut a bit too rough for my tastes. My saw blade leaves a very nice finish suitable for gluing. I have measured the run out of my saw blade and it is less than .001 inch from front to rear. In a previous post I included a pic of the bottom of a bowl consisting of 24 segments which came together with near perfection on the first attempt. Now I am going to use a swear word for this highly adept forum. My table saw is a Shopsmith equipped with a good quality extremely sharp blade which is only used for cutting segments. The saw blade is is only used for cutting segments, the Shopsmith is used for other stuff also.
Bill V
 
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If you have a router table or wood shaper they can do better at accurate angle settings. They don't have the issues of saw blade wobble or misalignment of blade with the miter slot.

I would rough cut the segment angles on the bandsaw using the router table to finish to precise angle. The Accu-wedge might have to be modified with something like DeStaco hold downs for clamping the rough cut segments. Or, make your own dedicated sled arrangement for the router table/shaper rather than modifying the Accu-wedge.

As a side note...... There's a series of books from back in the day published by Delta on using and jig making for their machines (used book sellers have them). The titles are "Getting the most out of your .......", there's a separate book on table saws, shapers, lathes and so on. They were published back when tool manufacturers didn't have to have the first ten pages of instruction manuals on safety issues related to covering their asses from law suits. Some of the books talk about modifying the machines for special purposes, nobody would dare suggest doing that today. There're some interesting techniques shown like woodturning on the table saw and shaper. IMO, the books are worth their weight in gold. If nothing else they should get you "thinking out of the box" as the saying goes.
 
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to John Lucas
Making rings with 8, 10, or 12 segments may not show small errors. But when you increase the number of segments to 24 is when the cumulative error creeps in and messes everything up.
 

Bill Boehme

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... As a side note...... There's a series of books from back in the day published by Delta on using and jig making for their machines (used book sellers have them). The titles are "Getting the most out of your .......", there's a separate book on table saws, shapers, lathes and so on. They were published back when tool manufacturers didn't have to have the first ten pages of instruction manuals on safety issues related to covering their asses from law suits. Some of the books talk about modifying the machines for special purposes, nobody would dare suggest doing that today. There're some interesting techniques shown like woodturning on the table saw and shaper. IMO, the books are worth their weight in gold. If nothing else they should get you "thinking out of the box" as the saying goes.

It sounds like the same series of books may have been edited and published for Sears Craftsman tools, I have one for Radial arm saws ... lots of nifty and risky cool things inside. :D
 
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I have original copies of "Getting the most out of your: Band saw & Shaper" which I had purchased with or after purchasing the machines. I just looked thru them and did not see any glaring safety issues.
 

john lucas

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I finally had time to tune up my table saw after the big move. So I started a segmented project just to see how it works. I cut a 24 segment ring using the seg easy. This time for interest sake I numbered the rings so I could keep them in order and get the same side up. I did not put my Forest blade on but this was a good sharp blade. Interesting. When I put the ring together it seemed like it fit perfectly. then I flipped it over. There were 3 or 4 joints that had an .008" gap. I used a feeler gauge to find out. Very slight and only on part of the segment. I talked to my friend Rod Smith who does wonderful segmented vessels and we have looked at issues like this before. I think I was feeding the wood at a different rate and possibly flexing the blade. I didn't have my blade stabilizers on which I use when I cut segments with my Forest blade. Any way I thought you would find this interesting.
 

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john lucas

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I picked up a high end Craftsman radial.arm saw very inexpensive so I tuned it up and played with it. Scared me every time I used it. There were some thing it would do that other tools wont but I just couldn't get over my fear of it.
 
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I picked up a high end Craftsman radial.arm saw very inexpensive so I tuned it up and played with it. Scared me every time I used it. There were some thing it would do that other tools wont but I just couldn't get over my fear of it.
You mean like the self feed feature?
 
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When I had a semester of Industrial Arts in high school, we weren't allowed to use the table saw, that was only for the cabinet making class. We were however allowed to use the radial arm saw......o_O
 

Bill Boehme

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I used a RAS for about ten years before getting a Delta Unisaw. The first thing that I did after getting my RAS set up was to rip a board ... going the wrong way. The next thing that I heard was a very loud BANG as the board shot through several cardboard boxes on the other side of the garage. My wife came running into the garage to see if I had killed myself with the Christmas gift that she had given me. I said that everything was fine in a quivering voice, but decided that maybe it would be a good idea to read the instructions. Anyway, that little board launching demonstration got my attention and made me a much safer user of the RAS. I really liked my RAS and I could do a lot of things with it, but there was one thing that I only tried once ... I bought a moulding head set to create various types of trim, but that thing was just plain scary. In fact, I won't even use it on my Unisaw.
 
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