I have been toying with the idea of integrating certain embellishments into my turning using a CNC. This is a prototype I came up with. I have some other ideas in mind for some segmented pieces.
-
We just finished moving the forums to a new hosting server. It looks like everything is functioning correctly but if you find a problem please report it in the Forum Technical Support Forum (click here) or email us at forum_moderator AT aawforum.org. Thanks! -
Beware of Counterfeit Woodturning Tools (click here for details) -
Johnathan Silwones is starting a new AAW chapter, Southern Alleghenies Woodturners, in Johnstown, PA. (click here for details) -
Congratulations to Dave Roberts for "2 Hats" being selected as Turning of the Week for April 22, 2024 (click here for details) -
Welcome new registering member. Your username must be your real First and Last name (for example: John Doe). "Screen names" and "handles" are not allowed and your registration will be deleted if you don't use your real name. Also, do not use all caps nor all lower case.
Fusion of CNC and Woodturning
- Thread starter JeffWimer
- Start date
You could use a CNC to speed up the process of cutting segment pieces to be able to glue and assemble multiple rings for complex segmented pieces. The prep time that goes into cutting precise size and shaped pieces would be streamlined on a CNC machine if planned out properly.
Saw a CNC wood lathe over at the tech college in Lancaster 3 years ago. Newer videos of German nutcracker and wooden toy production is almost all shaped by cnc lathes, with auto feed, etc. Pops off little wooden parts a couple times a second.
I figure the day is coming that scroll sawing and carving by hand will be sort of an archaic skill done mostly by CNC. Could be that wood turning is not far behind to be taken over by CNC work.
I figure the day is coming that scroll sawing and carving by hand will be sort of an archaic skill done mostly by CNC. Could be that wood turning is not far behind to be taken over by CNC work.
Jeff,
Bill Ooms (https://www.billooms.com/) is one of the leading pioneers in the use of computerization as an approach to ornamental turning. In my correspendence with him, Bill has stated that he prefers the term "computer-assisted" over "CNC". His reasoning is that the use of a computer to help the artist achieve his goal is quite different from the typical use of computer numerical control (CNC). CNC is identified with the repeated production of given object, not one-off artistic work.
Bill documented the building of his Computerized Ornamental Lathe (COrnLathe™) on his web site. That site has a load of great information, and I won't take the time to repeat it here.
Bill is to be greatly commended for freely sharing three things :
I think what you’re doing is great ! Good luck as you push this forward.
Kind regards,
Rich
Bill Ooms (https://www.billooms.com/) is one of the leading pioneers in the use of computerization as an approach to ornamental turning. In my correspendence with him, Bill has stated that he prefers the term "computer-assisted" over "CNC". His reasoning is that the use of a computer to help the artist achieve his goal is quite different from the typical use of computer numerical control (CNC). CNC is identified with the repeated production of given object, not one-off artistic work.
Bill documented the building of his Computerized Ornamental Lathe (COrnLathe™) on his web site. That site has a load of great information, and I won't take the time to repeat it here.
Bill is to be greatly commended for freely sharing three things :
- the COrnLathe "hardware" designs he has created,
- the software he has created, and
- the designs he has created for ornamental cutting frames.
I think what you’re doing is great ! Good luck as you push this forward.
Kind regards,
Rich
I get what you are saying, but right now feeding a picture into a computer and making a few frame changes still results in a cnc router carved picture. Whether it is one off or 2 million copies. Computers, figuring programs, and cajoling the dumb machine to act smart are far far above my pay grade. I am envious of those who have the talent and knowledge. When I can tell the computer to "Weird Science" a bombshell made to order, that will be plenty artistic for me.
It would be interesting to set the CNC up to do some random pattern piercing in a hollow form to see how the equipment and bits would perform. This process is very time consuming and requires a high speed tool and bit to make the piercings. You could also cut patterns on a piece and fill them with a colored epoxy and repeat the process with the CNC cutting the next set of patterns on the piece and fill with a different colored epoxy until you ended up with a stained glass type of segmented piece that could then be turned on the lathe to finish the shape and polish the piece.
Perry,
There were probably some who said all these motorized lathes took the artistic talent away from those who used the treadle ones. Certainly the craftspeople at Old Williamsburg show things can be made with no power tools. Just takes a lot longer ... and costs quite a bit more.
And some carvers greatly criticize power carving. But I spoke recently with a stone carver who said they wouldn’t be able to make a living if they used hammers and chisels.
I’m of the opinion that advances can be good or bad, or both. So if the advances make artistic options possible, then they are great. But, if their use just cheapens the results (I.e., makes them simply piece work), then it is bad.
But you do present a different argument that is certainly worth considering : how to ensure the hobby we all like so much stays doable.
Kind regards,
Rich
There were probably some who said all these motorized lathes took the artistic talent away from those who used the treadle ones. Certainly the craftspeople at Old Williamsburg show things can be made with no power tools. Just takes a lot longer ... and costs quite a bit more.
And some carvers greatly criticize power carving. But I spoke recently with a stone carver who said they wouldn’t be able to make a living if they used hammers and chisels.
I’m of the opinion that advances can be good or bad, or both. So if the advances make artistic options possible, then they are great. But, if their use just cheapens the results (I.e., makes them simply piece work), then it is bad.
But you do present a different argument that is certainly worth considering : how to ensure the hobby we all like so much stays doable.
- It must be something that can be undertaken in reasonable amount of time, or who would do it? (That’s why I’ve never taken up the piano.)
- It must be something that is affordable to do for the reasonable person.
- This is why Jon Magill’s development of an MDF lathe is such a great thing. It makes ornamental turning affordable.
- And why Brian Horais’ off center Turning is so great. Not requiring the use of some expensive chuck makes it something I will be trying soon.
Kind regards,
Rich
Thanks for all the feedback. I wasn’t quite sure was happening in with regards to CNC use in turning. I am still learning the CNC but have quite a bit of experience in open segmented turning. Hope to get back to this soon but have to take some time for my wife’s knee replacement surgery.
Look into Dewey Garrett's work.
He has been very active with similar types of wood art.
He has been very active with similar types of wood art.
Mark,
Thank you for the reference. Dewey Garret’s work is amazing !
Kind regards,
Rich
Thank you for the reference. Dewey Garret’s work is amazing !
Kind regards,
Rich
I suspect that it won't be too long before everybody is discussing jigs to sharpen CNC bits and refine our lasers instead of gouges...plus, of course, we will have to get away from using wood and move to some sort of composite material to improve cut and accuracy. I can't wait.
Hopefully some day they can make trees biodegradable and renewable. 
Here's a 3" diameter CNC "turning". This is done somewhat like the Russian turners, one bowl at a time working down the length of the blank. Except it's not done on a lathe, it's done on a CNC vertical milling machine with the work stationary and the tools rotating around the blank.
It's not likely there'll ever be inexpensive CNC lathes suitable for the hobbyists for large bowl turning. Much more complicated/expensive to build than the CNC routers you see at Rockler and Woodcraft. The milling machine and router table designs are more versatile than a lathe anyway even when doing turnings IMO.
Bowl was roughed out with two cutters, a ball end carbide router bit for the inside and the outside with a "wheel" cutter (similar to a saw blade, but thicker and with the teeth radiused). The cuts are climb cuts to lessen the chance of tearout (a climb cut is like feeding a hand held wood router in the wrong direction so it wants to get out of your control). The inside is done first and finish pass is done. The outside is roughed, then a light finish pass. Only fine sanding, if there is fuzz on the cuts a spray of sanding sealer tends to eliminate that on the final pass.
This design could be changed with a couple keystrokes on the CNC control so it wouldn't be recognizable as the one shown. Easy to make shorter, taller or oval. A thousand bowls could be made with different designs from the same cutting program and the only common feature would be all are bowls.
It's not likely there'll ever be inexpensive CNC lathes suitable for the hobbyists for large bowl turning. Much more complicated/expensive to build than the CNC routers you see at Rockler and Woodcraft. The milling machine and router table designs are more versatile than a lathe anyway even when doing turnings IMO.
Bowl was roughed out with two cutters, a ball end carbide router bit for the inside and the outside with a "wheel" cutter (similar to a saw blade, but thicker and with the teeth radiused). The cuts are climb cuts to lessen the chance of tearout (a climb cut is like feeding a hand held wood router in the wrong direction so it wants to get out of your control). The inside is done first and finish pass is done. The outside is roughed, then a light finish pass. Only fine sanding, if there is fuzz on the cuts a spray of sanding sealer tends to eliminate that on the final pass.
This design could be changed with a couple keystrokes on the CNC control so it wouldn't be recognizable as the one shown. Easy to make shorter, taller or oval. A thousand bowls could be made with different designs from the same cutting program and the only common feature would be all are bowls.
Last edited:
CNC adds a new level of complexity......and a whole new set of possibilities.
Assuming I had a CNC machine, I would try to think WAY outside the box (ah...circle in this case).
- does it still need to be round? or can I go crazy in a different dimension?
- does it need to look like it came off a lathe? or can I drop that set of restrictions?
I wish I had the tool and also that kind of wild imagination.
When looking for inspiration, I pick up my copy of 500 Wood Bowls
(and there are a few more great books in the series)
There are so many great ideas in there. Many are not my style. Some completely confound me on "how hell did they do that???"
Much like wood carving/power carving, I think CNC opens up a new set of possibilities.
Maybe the "how" is no longer the hard part. The design becomes the interesting challenge.
Frank Howarth also does a lot of CNC turning projects. You can find him at Frank Makes on YouTube.
I think with the "cnc" the question is was something handmade or not. The cnc is a really great tool useful in ways we haven't discovered as of yet, or have we? Cnc has been around for a long time but only as of late can some individuals afford them. Now we have this issue of can we call it this or that. If your in business and you need to produce large quantities cnc is the ticket. It does not mean that if you make two things that you can't use it. So at the end of the day if you were selling your product/project, what are you going to tell the buyer? If you used two tools to produce your project, those being the lathe and the cnc then as long as you tell the buyer this your fine. I see quiet a bit of presentation of "handmade" when the product was made on a cnc. I personally do not think it was handmade. Some would argue that a powered lathe as most of use use is not handmade either. I do think its handmade because you manipulate a tool in a handheld fashion and it takes skill to to that. I like doing flat work as well with old type hand tools but my patience is not there for the rough to finish product. I use a planers and jointers to get my stock ready for finish work and then go to hand tools for the fine finish and joint work. I do not consider jointers and planers "handmade". The cnc is capable of some very cool stuff. Things that only the very best artisan could do by hand and maybe no one could do. If you want to do some cnc cutting then turn that into a bowl, i am interested to see the outcome. The sky is the limit as they say and I think we can use all that is available to us to make or produce what ever we have bouncing around in our heads. I just think we need to be honest when we sell it or explain it to an observer.
- Joined
- Apr 27, 2004
- Messages
- 8,637
- Likes
- 4,976
- Location
- Lakeland, Florida
- Website
- www.hockenberywoodturning.com
When people are purchasing art, furniture, or architectural components few care how it was made.
Lathes make most of the wooden baseball bats with no human touching a turning tool.
I just did a hollowing demo using the Bosch visualizer to hollow. Amazed at its simplicity one of the audience members said “that’s cheating”
Is using calipers cheating?
Using a chainsaw ?
Using electricity?
Automatic lathes, CNC, 3D printers, Bosch visualizer, computer programs for segments or design.......
These are just tools.
The art is in the conceptualizing the object.
I like the feel I get from cutting wood more than the feel I get from pushing buttons.
But I also use technology when it appeals to me.
Lathes make most of the wooden baseball bats with no human touching a turning tool.
I just did a hollowing demo using the Bosch visualizer to hollow. Amazed at its simplicity one of the audience members said “that’s cheating”
Is using calipers cheating?
Using a chainsaw ?
Using electricity?
Automatic lathes, CNC, 3D printers, Bosch visualizer, computer programs for segments or design.......
These are just tools.
The art is in the conceptualizing the object.
I like the feel I get from cutting wood more than the feel I get from pushing buttons.
But I also use technology when it appeals to me.
Last edited:
The "handmade" point is interesting. A friend has 30+ employees making stringed musical instruments, they've changed their ads from "handcrafted" to "handcrafted quality". They feel their quality is much improved with CNC. Their products are considered high quality and without CNC they couldn't do it.
As to affordability of CNC, you can get a good start for much less than a serious woodturner with his Robust or Oneway and accessories. But, that's not say what Rockler and Woodcraft sell are high end CNC's, I also hear the complaint about too hard to learn, couldn't be much harder than learning to turn based on all the turning demos and classes offered.
I ran a 5'x10'x3' capacity, duel table 5 axis CNC for 12 years before retiring. I felt no pleasure typing and manipulating tool paths on a computer. I did love watching the robot dance and produce an accurate part. The learning in CNC is the software. The CAD side or the software, along with creating 3D surfacing was the difficult part for me. Today's software will write it's own tool paths, and produce 200,000 lines of code in seconds. As I've grown older, I find much more pleasure in the journey than the result. If the journey is staring at a flat screen for hours, it's nothing I want to invest in. Time or money.
Don't misunderstand I embrace the CNC, I want one myself. I just want us to call it what it is. Doug, repeatability is what the cnc is all about and I have no doubt your friends shop is better off for it. He did just exactly as I would hope he would. I agree with hock as well when dealing with art how you get there doesn't matter. In most cases that is always the case except when cheap furnature came along, and it has its place, people looking for quality are looking for handcrafted. I just think we should note the difference, that all my point was.
With the different types of embellishments added to wood turned pieces, you could easily and quickly produce the raw wood item on a CNC and then use the creative hand finishing aspect of adding the embellishments which takes the most amount of time and adds the largest amount of artistic value to the piece.
For years I designed products, first by pencil then by 2D CAD AND then by solid modeling (3 D CAD).
These parts and machines had to meet exact Specifications and were made from homogeneous materials and be reproducible.
Today I Turn wood, each blank is different and I can modify my design on the fly. This is due to the wood as well as my mistakes (design opertunity) I seldom make the same exact shape twice. That's what I enjoy.
Stu
These parts and machines had to meet exact Specifications and were made from homogeneous materials and be reproducible.
Today I Turn wood, each blank is different and I can modify my design on the fly. This is due to the wood as well as my mistakes (design opertunity) I seldom make the same exact shape twice. That's what I enjoy.
Stu
Stu, your right you can, you can cut one out on the cnc and then be turning the other finish cuts and embellishment, now your faster if that's what you want. I think in my mind if you did the finish cuts, you could call it handcrafted or handmade. I am just wondering where the line is, I'm not sure. I just do not want to take away from the craftsman or artist. Handmade generally brings a higher price point and I feel it is warranted due to the time it takes and more importantly I want honesty to the consumer. Carving to me is a definite skill, weather with power tools or hand tool because you still manipulate the tool by hand but I have seen the darn nice stuff done completely on the cnc. The latter I consider handcrafted and it should bring a higher price but it is nice to have the cnc stuff so it affords people that can not afford the artist level piece to still have a nice piece in their home. It is unfortunate in my mind that the skill and artistry of many has been diminished nearly to history but it is nice to see hobbyist still doing some of this stuff keeping it alive,you tubes good side.Stu I know very few if any that can duplicate pieces certainly not equal to cnc. That is the beauty of the handcrafted or one off pieces. I can get close and on a good day close enough that most people cant tell but really I only try on matching pepper mills and single serving salad bowls. I think people are more intrigued by the one-off stuff and I see a lot more eclectic home decor than I have in the past even on some very expensive homes.
I make pieces to sell to support my hobby. I use the handmade/handcraft sales pitch and a true story to sell my pieces. When I do flat work I tell the customer that machines were used to rough cut the pieces and then the rest done by hand and most do not mind. I have run across a couple that wanted something made entirely by hand and even asked me to make them something specific. I do not do that but there are a few that want it entirely made by hand. The point is some are looking at the "how" albiet very few.
This is a hobby for me and I'm guessing most everyone here, I think some sell piece and some don't so your only judge is the people you give the pieces to and most do not care how it was made even when you want to tell them. Such is life.
I love to see the skills people have and I have always respected the marquetry, potters, coopers, wheel wrights etc. Human progress is natural and mostly humans are lazy overall but because of our laziness we have found through hard work and curiosity easier more efficient ways of accomplishing work duties. This afforded ourselves the opportunity to have hobbies. Oddly enough these hobbies keep some of the lost skills/arts/craftsmanship alive and I must say the advancement of cnc, chemicials, finishes, modern process, science and mathematics has opened doors 100years ago could not be seen. Then you read that there is a shift a few years ago back to hand tools. I love it! I like back to the basics and I like to look forward I just like it all. I am excited to see what Jeff comes up with!
I make pieces to sell to support my hobby. I use the handmade/handcraft sales pitch and a true story to sell my pieces. When I do flat work I tell the customer that machines were used to rough cut the pieces and then the rest done by hand and most do not mind. I have run across a couple that wanted something made entirely by hand and even asked me to make them something specific. I do not do that but there are a few that want it entirely made by hand. The point is some are looking at the "how" albiet very few.
This is a hobby for me and I'm guessing most everyone here, I think some sell piece and some don't so your only judge is the people you give the pieces to and most do not care how it was made even when you want to tell them. Such is life.
I love to see the skills people have and I have always respected the marquetry, potters, coopers, wheel wrights etc. Human progress is natural and mostly humans are lazy overall but because of our laziness we have found through hard work and curiosity easier more efficient ways of accomplishing work duties. This afforded ourselves the opportunity to have hobbies. Oddly enough these hobbies keep some of the lost skills/arts/craftsmanship alive and I must say the advancement of cnc, chemicials, finishes, modern process, science and mathematics has opened doors 100years ago could not be seen. Then you read that there is a shift a few years ago back to hand tools. I love it! I like back to the basics and I like to look forward I just like it all. I am excited to see what Jeff comes up with!