Fractal Burning

[Ray Hari]

AAW just posted their stance on fractal burning. I would like to know whether the board of any of the clubs around the country have adopted the same or similar stance for their own club regarding fractal burning.

 

[Bill Boehme]

That has been their policy for at least a year. The AAW policy applies to AAW publications, web site, videos that they link to, and their national symposium. They can't dictate what affiliated clubs and regional symposiums do, but they encourage them to adopt a similar position.

The SWAT symposium allows pieces with fractal burning to be displayed in the instant gallery, but I believe that they don't allow it to be demonstrated.

High voltage is completely unforgiving ... just one tiny mistake, faulty equipment, distraction, or other lapse of attention can be fatal. Unlike a lathe accident where there are degrees of injury, working with high voltage has a binary outcome. As an electrical engineer I have worked around very high voltages and have plenty of respect for its sometimes unexpected behavior. I could probably do fractal burning without killing myself, but it isn't something that I find appealing. Most woodturners know very little about electricity ... certainly not enough to be aware of the potential hazards of very high voltages.

 

[Gerald Lawrence]

Our club president demonstrated it a few years ago and stated Saturday and stated Saturday he no longer does it and discourages its use.
There have been several discussions here on this subject and it seems the stats keep climbing on deaths.
I think the AAW position is in opposition until someone develops standards making it safe to do. Which is in my opinion not likely.

 

[n7bsn]

Bill, I don't know if you followed any of the discussions on the more recent deaths, one of the people that died was an electrician (in fact he wired the shop of one of the people in the discussion)
One would have hoped he knew the dangers of HV
I'm also an former electrician and retired EE and will not even try it.

One thought I had was you-tube was banning videos of challenges and such that have high death rates, I wonder if three deaths in last three months counts?

 

[Mark Jundanian]

but it isn't something that I find appealing

Beauty is in the eye of the beholder, but my eye beholds no particular beauty with this technique. And unless we're going to credit the power company I don't really see it as the "work" of the artist.

 

[hockenbery]

Fractal Burning will kill you if it can. It has killed at least 10 people, 4 since last November that we know about.
As Bill said any accident is almost always fatal. I did hear of one catastrophic burn injury.

AAW Saftey committee postings
https://www.woodturner.org/page/FractalBurning

Chapter bulliten
https://www.woodturner.org/page/ChaptBullet20170523?&hhsearchterms="fractal"

AAW official policy
It is the policy of the American Association of Woodturners (AAW) that the process known as Fractal Burning is prohibited from being used in any AAW-sponsored events, including regional and national symposia, and that AAW-chartered chapters are strongly urged to refrain from demonstrating or featuring the process in chapter events. Further, the process of FractalBurning shall not be featured in any written or online AAW publication, except for within articles that warn against its use. AAW publications will not accept advertisements for any products or supplies directly related to the process.

 

[John Torchick]

I worked in the appliance industry in R&D, certification preliminary testing for AGA and UL. LP gas, natural gas and electricity to 208/240 volts. I have a great respect for all three which can ruin your whole day.

 

[Mike Johnson]

Low voltage kills more people on a daily basis more so then high voltage accidents, no matter the voltage it only takes a few milliamps of current to stop the heart from functioning normally. I have worked around high voltage systems most of my life and go through yearly training to maintain licensing and federal requirements to keep up with safety standards and regulations. With proper training and proper personal protective equipment and standardized procedures followed a person can safely work with these electrical systems. I watch YouTube videos showing people turning out of balance wood billets on a lathe with no support from the tail stock that makes me more nervous then working on high voltage systems. Some of these people have pushed their luck for so long not realizing how much damage can be instantly incurred from an out of balance wood blank leaving a chuck at high speed. Even the use of the tail stock for support is no guarantee that the wood billet can still come off the lathe with a bad tool catch.

 

[Bryan Lisowski]

I watched a video of fractal burning and all I can say is no thanks. I don't like (not confident) in doing any electrical work.

 

[John Torchick]

Low voltage kills more people on a daily basis more so then high voltage accidents, no matter the voltage it only takes a few milliamps of current to stop the heart from functioning normally.

I agree but I learned at a very young age to respect gas and electricity. My grandfather would lick his thumb and index finger to test for current. He said if the line caused a tingle, it was on. He only did this with light switches and outlets. He was too smart to to this with a high voltage line.

 

[Karl Loeblein]

Bill, I don't know if you followed any of the discussions on the more recent deaths, one of the people that died was an electrician (in fact he wired the shop of one of the people in the discussion)

Even with all the warnings people are still going to take risk in order to do something cool like fractal burning. In this last the electrician should have known better than messing around with high-voltages without the proper safety precautions. I suspect most (if not all) of the 10 people electrocuted while fractal burning were using hacked microwave transformers, and weren't wearing any high-voltage safety gloves. I think what's needed here is more high-voltage experts telling people about the necessary precautions to do this safely. Even woodturning can seriously hurt or kill someone in this hobby so it's good to be reminded of the proper safety precautions.

Interesting fact: 50 volts or less can be enough to injure or kill you. In 1999 a US Navy safety publication described an incident where a sailor was killed by a 9 volt battery when the current traveled through his bloodstream and to his heart.

 

[Perry Hilbert]

Static electricity from wind blowing through metal grids and machinery has killed people. The ignore it, do not mention it and pretend it does not exist has not worked for a great many things through the history of mankind.

 

[Mike Johnson]

It is the current not the voltage that kills people and it is a small amount measured in milliamps that can stop the heart. There is too much liability for the host website and the person detailing the proper method and electrical personal protective equipment required to do this work safely. Depending on the person, the skill level and experience will determine if they can do this safely with proper equipment, all it takes is a tiny pin hole in a pair of electrically insulated high voltage rated gloves and you are done. You might as well play with anthrax as you are dealing with a hazard that you can not see, smell, or sense before it is too late. There are experienced electricians that I work with every day that are not allowed to work on high voltage systems that we maintain, some people just don't have the discipline or the skill sets to work around these systems. I have witnessed (2) electricians that worked for other companies that made mistakes working with these systems over the years and paid with their lives.

 

[Bill Boehme]

It is the current not the voltage that kills people and it is a small amount measured in milliamps that can stop the heart. There is too much liability for the host website and the person detailing the proper method and electrical personal protective equipment required to do this work safely.

Even if when the current is less than the level that can lead to ventricular fibrillation there will be uncontrolled muscle jerking which means that you no longer have control of the electrodes in your hands.

 

[egsiegel]

Low voltage kills more people on a daily basis more so then high voltage accidents, ...

What about on a percentage basis? I bet (unconfirmed) that a higher percentage of people working with High Voltage than people working with Low Voltage are killed or injured.
Kind of like...more people are killed in car crashes when they are not wearing driving gloves....so driving gloves make cars safer.

The fact is that High Voltage Fractal Burning is Dangerous...very Dangerous.

 

[Mike Johnson]

More people die in car accidents every year (confirmed) too many people ignore basic safety when it comes to any activity they are involved in. Too many people are on their cell phones while driving and walking and suffer the consequences daily. Poor work habits around wood working equipment produces injuries on a daily basis across the country, follow proper safety guidelines and you avoid being a statistic, ignore standard safety protocols and you end up being a statistic. Some people are just plain stubborn and will do things their way and ignore safety practices at their own risk. Half of the people that purchase a table saw these days remove the guard that is provided with the equipment. Very few people use the guards that are made for wood lathes that are designed to catch the billet if it leaves the chuck. If the person knows what their limitations are and what they can and can not do around this equipment they can go for years without becoming a statistic. A large percentage of people do not have the experience, knowledge or skill sets to identify a can do or can not do practice around equipment for various reasons. Like any activity if you spend hundreds of hours using a tool or a machine you will become a skilled user over time and be able to use it without becoming a statistic, if you push the limits or become complacent your odds of getting hurt increase. OSHA accident statistics show that there is a bell curve for accidents incurred by the average individual, most accidents happen to the novice unskilled worker and the advanced skilled worker with the least amount of accidents in between these groups. The novice unskilled worker makes mistakes from lack of experience and knowledge, the advanced skilled worker can become complacent and pushes their skill limits and equipment limits, the middle of the road worker still has respect for the equipment and usually avoids taking unwarranted risks and learns as they proceed following safety protocols.

 

[hockenbery]

Adhering to safe practices reduces the chance of an accident.
Wearing/using safety gear reduces the probabily of injury and reduces the probability of severe injury.

It is rare that the probability is reduced to zero.

In the case of fractal burning:
The uninformed, untrained, and ill equipped should not participate.
The informed, trained, and equipped can still get dead but they can evaluate the risks.

A hundred years ago everyone was so happy when cars were coming out because everyone knew someone who was killed by a horse.

 

[Karl Loeblein]

Mike, You have good point about pin holes in high-voltage gloves because the average person has no way to test their gloves for this issue. I think more information like this is needed so people understand 'why' it's not safe to build a fractal burning unit especially units where users hold onto the high-voltage probes with their hands. Same goes for warning people about the deadly amount of current from hacked microwave transformers.

What are your thoughts about burning units built with neon-transformer like this one from Conestoga Works at 12,000 volt, 35 mA using handheld probes and a dead-man switch? Do you consider these high-voltage units unsafe even when used with all their safety precautions:

CONESTOGA WORKS LICHTENBERG FIGURE WOOD BURNER OPERATING INSTRUCTIONS
...
• Do not plug the burner in until you have completed all preparation steps and are ready to decorate the item.
• Ensure both probes are under your control prior to activating the foot switch.
• Hold the probes like you would a pencil and keep them vertical to the surface of material being decorated. Avoid touching the area below the probe’s clear plastic hilt or near each probe’s tip.
• Always place the probes in their insulated pocket on the burner when not using them.
• Depress the foot switch to activate and turn on the burner. The red indicator lamp will illuminate when the foot switch is depressed.
• Release the foot switch to deactivate and shut the burner off.
• Wear shoes and stand on a rubber floor mat. Electrically insulated rubber gloves that are designed to protect you from high voltage (Class II) are recommended. Electrically insulated gloves may be purchased from most safety supply stores or from the internet. Ensure the glove’s safety procedures and protocol are followed.
• Do not use on or near any electrically conductive surfaces including tools.
• Ensure the material to be decorated is stable on a nonconductive work surface.
• Do not attempt to decorate the item while mounted on a lathe or has a lathe chuck attached.
• It is recommended that you have a second person serve as a safety observer.
• Do not allow anyone to touch any work surface or the item being decorated while the burner is activated.
• Do not coat or spray electrolyte solution on the item while the burner is activated.

 

[Bill Boehme]

.... What are your thoughts about burning units built with neon-transformer like this one from Conestoga Works at 12,000 volt, 35 mA using handheld probes and a dead-man switch? Do you consider these high-voltage units unsafe even when used with all their safety precautions....

It's absolute nonsense to claim that neon light transformers are safe. A current of 35 milliamperes is far more than necessary to cause ventricular fibrillation. There are all sorts of neon transformers and some can put out far greater current than microwave transformers. The "dead man" switch is aptly named in this application. If Conestoga thinks that their product is safe, let's see them submit it for UL certification testing.

 

[Mike Johnson]

The AAW opted to stay away from this topic for a number of valid reasons, one of them being liability and being able to sleep at night knowing that they were not the cause of an unfortunate accident. Providing opinions or recommendations on a topic like this on a forum is opening yourself to litigation if an accident occurs, too many lawyers needing a paycheck these days.

 

[Karl Loeblein]

The AAW opted to stay away from this topic for a number of valid reasons, one of them being liability and being able to sleep at night knowing that they were not the cause of an unfortunate accident. Providing opinions or recommendations on a topic like this on a forum is opening yourself to litigation if an accident occurs, too many lawyers needing a paycheck these days.

I understand the concerns. Just wondering why none of the deaths so far have mentioned neon transformers, but is sounds like it's just a matter of time. Here's hoping a lot less people will be tempted to do fractal burning once they understand why there's no practical way for the average person to work safely around the high voltages used.

 

[Bill Boehme]

I understand the concerns. Just wondering why none of the deaths so far have mentioned neon transformers, but is sounds like it's just a matter of time. Here's hoping a lot less people will be tempted to do fractal burning once they understand why there's no practical way for the average person to work safely around the high voltages used.

Old microwave ovens are plentiful, but neon signs, once plentiful decades ago, are a rarity now.

The thread is now closed to further replies. A number of posts have been deleted because they were wandering off into urban myths and unrelated topics. The Health and Safety forum can do without such drivel.