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Sharpening, burr or keen edge

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Hi all, I am new here and to turning, so be kind at my ignorant question.

With regard to sharpening, do you prefer to turn with a burr or a keen edge.

I am entering this turning world from kitchen knife world where I can free hand sharpen a killer edge by almost anyone’s standards. I progress through several grits and remove the burr to a very keen edge.

I have a new grizzly wet grinder for the woodturning tools, 220 then a leather wheel with stropping compound. I know from my kitchen knife work, removing the burr gives a very keen, durable edge.

How do you deal with the burr on your turning tools?

Thank you,
Ben
 
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Well, for the skew chisel, most of the time it is honed. For bowl gouges, most of the time we don't bother to remove the burr, and the edge from a 180 grit wheel is fine. Some times the bowl gouge can be honed and/or sharpened on a much finer wheel, but this is mostly for softer woods, or woods that are prone to tearing. With scrapers, most of the time we want the burr as a cutting edge. The grinder burr is fine, but some times a raised/burnished burr is preferable. The thing with woodturning is that you can remove miles of shavings in a very short time, and the scary sharp edges won't take that type of abuse. Best to find the local club. They all come with mentors, and monthly demonstrations. Excellent learning source... I, and many others have a lot of videos up on You Tube, including sharpening ones.

robo hippy
 

hockenbery

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We have all had the same question and many still do.
As Reed said above. Skew has to cut in both directions so must be honed.

A scraper needs a bur best burs are struck by hand with a hone or a steel rod after the grinder bur is removed with a hone.

Gouges I almost always use straight from the grinder. Once in while I hone the spindle gouge if i’m having trouble getting a fine detail on a particular wood.
For my grinding my bowl gouges I usually use an 80 grit CBN. The slightly serrated edge usually gives excellent results. On some woods I will try the 180 Grit wheel which I use for my spindle gouges.
On most woods I won’t drop a grit in initial sanding with the 180 grit wheel.


Honing is probably a shaper Edge always. ( unless we screw up and roll the edge).
However, it is only worth the effort if it skips us a grit or two in sanding.
 
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john lucas

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I answered on facebook but will respond here as well for others interest. Alan Lacer did a great article in American Woodturner showing that honing (and also removing the burr) improves the quality of the cut. He used Micro photographs to show the difference. There was another good article years ago in Woodturning (out of England) that proved that an edge that is sharpened to a finer grit will hold an edge longer. So there isn't any doubt a more polished edge is better. Now you have to make a judgement call as to when that sharper edge is worth the trouble. I almost always hone for final cuts. I'm after that perfect cut and may some day get it so I try to give my self the best chance. For roughing, no, straight off the grinder because I will be going back to the grinder shortly to improve the edge for more work. When I get to those final cuts then I use my diamond hones to polish the inside and outside of the gouge. My skews on the other had I like razor sharp. However when I did my sharpness article for More Woodturning magazine I found out that there are definitely different grades of "razor sharp". So I try to do is get an edge that will shave hair with no burr.
Scrapers on the other hand work better with a burr and there are different ways to raise a burr. I have an article in Woodturning fundamentals that discusses this. One thing I don't like about the carbide scrapers is you can't raise a burr and they gradually get duller and duller with use. They can be sharpened but it takes a considerable effort on a diamond hone. A HSS tool can be sharpened in just seconds and HSS scrapers can have the burr renewed in just seconds so most experienced turners use HSS or the more advanced steels like M42 and A11 rather than carbide.
 
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I still consider myself a beginner and expert sawdust manufacturer. Many people are comfortable with a: certain grind, certain tool for a specific job, blondes versus brunettes. Sorry, got off topic.o_O
hockenbery mentions a serrated edge for a bowl gouge. It would be for specific needs as implied. This reminds me of two things- a serrated knife and a shark's tooth. Both are for cutting. Look at a shark's tooth and see the serrations.
Ben, happy turning! You will find a lot of woodturners have a sackful of tools. Each one is for a specific job or material or wood. I am amazed at the tools in the shops of turners on Youtube. So many tools, so little money!
 
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I still consider myself a beginner and expert sawdust manufacturer. Many people are comfortable with a: certain grind, certain tool for a specific job, blondes versus brunettes. Sorry, got off topic.o_O
hockenbery mentions a serrated edge for a bowl gouge. It would be for specific needs as implied. This reminds me of two things- a serrated knife and a shark's tooth. Both are for cutting. Look at a shark's tooth and see the serrations.
Ben, happy turning! You will find a lot of woodturners have a sackful of tools. Each one is for a specific job or material or wood. I am amazed at the tools in the shops of turners on Youtube. So many tools, so little money!
Funny, I talked to Doug Thompson recently. Most comments seemed to say “ I bought a Thompson gouge and I will not go back”. I reached out to him. One of his comments was that I should be able to turn a bowl from start to finish with one tool. Now I just need that gouge to show up, and to find more time in the shop.

Thanks
 
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If you can handle one more comment...In my experience, starting from knife making or carving is something of an impediment. You have a background where a finely made edge is the Be All-End All goal. As John Lucas mentioned, in wood turning, the wood goes by lickety split. Let's say a carver might cut a dozen feet of lines in an hour, while a turner with a 12" bowl at 1200 rpm, cuts 80 feet of wood in a SECOND. (Please don't check my math, engineers;)--it's an approximation, not a Mars landing.) It's just not reasonable to expect that super keen edge to last more than an instant. And it's just not reasonable to expect a turner to resharpen after every single cut. Sharp is good, crucial even, but we need to keep things in perspective.

(BTW, I have and like a half dozen Thompson tools, but I can't, and don't want to try to, complete an entire bowl with one trip to the grinder. 4 trips is the minimum to get a decent surface, unless it's a bitty little salt bowl, or aspen.)
 
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Depending on the item being turned if the wood dulls the tool quickly I will often have 2 or 3 identical tools sharpened and ready to use for the turning. You can quickly swap out a dull tool for a sharp one and continue turning and then make your trip to the grinder to sharpen all of the tools at one time. This also allows using your last sharp tool to make your final passes on the billet to get the cleanest cuts on the wood piece.
 
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There has been repeated discussion over the years about edges, kind of like the old Miller Beer commercials (Tastes great/less filling) about 'more serrated cuts better'/ more polished lasts longer. In my experience, the 600 grit gouge edge is fine for finish cuts, but lousy for roughing cuts because they dull so much faster. Micro photography shows one thing, but experience shows some thing else. Last year, just before the Symposium, Tom Wirsing had an article in the Journal saying that the polished edge lasted longer. I added a 600 grit wheel to the arsenal, and again, my experience results were the same. For a while, the same claim was made by the Tormek people about how their finer edge lasted longer. I was never able to notice any advantage....

robo hippy
 

john lucas

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Quite interesting Reed. I hear you and you have the experience. Would love to talk to Glen Lucas about this since he has gone to the Tormek and is obviously a production turner. There must be some reason. My own experience turning spindles, and I do turn a lot of them, is that edge off my 600 grit sanding belt seems to last longer than the same tool using my 180 grit CBN. Havent done the same test with my 350 CBN wheel because i havent done any product ton turning since i got that.
 
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I keep my grinder within two steps of the lathe. I'm not a production turner by any means, but watch for signs that the tool is getting dull.
 

Bill Boehme

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Here's my cold rainy day idle speculation: I think that personal turning style is also a factor in what works best and how long you can use a tool before it is perceived to be "dull". Also, the particular species of wood makes a difference. For Reed I would guess that his his turning style evolved to work best with a sawtooth like edge ripping through wet madrone so a Tormek edge simply wouldn't feel right nor meet his need regardless of somebody else's definition of sharpness. I, on the other hand, am a stinking Tormek user who obsesses over having a "perfect" edge regardless of anybody else's opinion of return on investment. My roughing cuts could qualify as finishing cuts, but that's just me and my style of turning. I'm not in a race with anybody and I enjoy the journey as much as the destination ... maybe even more. If I were ever a production turner I surely would soon have died of starvation.
 

john lucas

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I would certainly agree with that Bill. I sometimes fuss at myself when roughing a bowl and obsessing over the quality of the cut. Heck that surface will be gone with the next cut but I can't help myself.
 
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Would love to talk to Glen Lucas about this since he has gone to the Tormek and is obviously a production turner. There must be some reason.
Glenn's reason for choosing a Tormek may not be pertinent to this discussion. He talked his kids into sharpening all his tools for him, and it might be that the Tormek was the safer choice for the wee ones starting out.
 
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Now if I could get my wife on the grinder. That would speed things up a bit. Two tools- one on the lathe and her sharpening the other. Hmmmm.
 
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Here's my cold rainy day idle speculation: I think that personal turning style is also a factor in what works best and how long you can use a tool before it is perceived to be "dull". Also, the particular species of wood makes a difference. For Reed I would guess that his his turning style evolved to work best with a sawtooth like edge ripping through wet madrone so a Tormek edge simply wouldn't feel right nor meet his need regardless of somebody else's definition of sharpness. I, on the other hand, am a stinking Tormek user who obsesses over having a "perfect" edge regardless of anybody else's opinion of return on investment. My roughing cuts could qualify as finishing cuts, but that's just me and my style of turning. I'm not in a race with anybody and I enjoy the journey as much as the destination ... maybe even more. If I were ever a production turner I surely would soon have died of starvation.
In regards to your roughing cuts I do it similarly but I view it as a chance to practise finishing cuts plus the clean cutting is a much more pleasing sound.
 

john lucas

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Ditto.Don. when roughing I learning about the wood, where the cuts will be a problem, and developing muscle memory for the final cuts.
 
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I will bug Glenn about it at the upcoming Oregon Woodturning Symposium as he will be one of the demonstrators. He does have the Tormek, and uses the diamond wheels. Mike Mahoney was one I heard make the comment about the more serrated edge cuts better than the more fine edge. I do turn a fair amount of Oregon Myrtle (actually California Bay Laurel, but that is marketing for you....) which is rather abrasive, and that could be a factor in the edge durability. The same thing seems to apply to my scraper burrs as well, there the 600 grit burr doesn't last as long as the 180 grit burr. No clue to why. The thing with Madrone is that it doesn't seem to matter what you are using to cut it with, the ribbons just fly....

You know your tools are getting dull when you set off the smoke alarm..... From one guy who used to write for American Woodworker magazine, though he was referring to the table saw blade....

robo hippy
 
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The best burr I ever raised was back in 1985 on the North Dakota Canada border mid February while snowmobiling. :eek:
It would be interesting to view a burr edge created by different methods under a microscope to see the difference. With everyone using different grades of tool steel lathe tools and different types of grinding wheels, sanding belts, steels and hones for sharpening it is difficult to say what method is better without a true comparison of the variables involved.
 
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I have found this entire thread and the comments on the on Facebook (same post) very enlightening.

Keep on going,
Thanks
Ben
 

RichColvin

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Now if I could get my wife on the grinder. That would speed things up a bit. Two tools- one on the lathe and her sharpening the other. Hmmmm.

When I obtained my lathe, the friend in England who found it for me suggested, "Now that you have your lathe, I recommend two things. First, retire, and second, teach your wife to sharpen the cutters." Only the first has come about; the second is still a somewhat onerous task.

Ornamental Tunery : A Practical and Historical Approach to a Centuries-Old Craft, by Frank M. Knox
 

RichColvin

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Hi all, I am new here and to turning, so be kind at my ignorant question.

With regard to sharpening, do you prefer to turn with a burr or a keen edge.

I am entering this turning world from kitchen knife world where I can free hand sharpen a killer edge by almost anyone’s standards. I progress through several grits and remove the burr to a very keen edge.

I have a new grizzly wet grinder for the woodturning tools, 220 then a leather wheel with stropping compound. I know from my kitchen knife work, removing the burr gives a very keen, durable edge.

How do you deal with the burr on your turning tools?

Thank you,
Ben

Ben,

At great resource is this site : https://scienceofsharp.wordpress.com/

Kind regards,
Rich
 

john lucas

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Thanks Rich. That will be some fun reading. When I was working on my article on sharpening different metals for More Woodturning I got a sharpness measuring tool. Really opened my eyes up to what is sharp and what is really sharp. The biggest eye opener was testing different razor blades. All shave hair but some were far sharper than other when measured with an accurate tool. Here is the article if this works.
https://www.morewoodturningmagazine.com/articles.php?articlesid=112&access=7e7d78763e40
 

RichColvin

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John,

I subscribe to “More Woodturning”, and remember that article. Great article in a great magazine.

Kind regards,
Rich
 
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Ditto.Don. when roughing I learning about the wood, where the cuts will be a problem, and developing muscle memory for the final cuts.
The other point I didn't mention is I do not think it is good practice to leave a lot of tear out on a green turned piece since it may be the starting point of a crack
 
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Any one besides me ever cut themselves on the burr on your chainsaw bar when changing the chain???? I did that once. What really surprised me was to see a chainsaw shop person do it to themself.... I figured they would have enough experience to know about that one...

robo hippy
 

Emiliano Achaval

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Any one besides me ever cut themselves on the burr on your chainsaw bar when changing the chain???? I did that once. What really surprised me was to see a chainsaw shop person do it to themself.... I figured they would have enough experience to know about that one...

robo hippy
I have cut myself several times over the years, feeling the gouges, to see how sharp they were, I guess I underestimated my ability to sharpen, they were extremely sharp, LOL I should add that I remember feeling pretty S***id...
 

john lucas

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I accidentally brushed my hand across the wing of my gouge the other day and spread some red stuff around before I noticed it.
 
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Biggest cut I ever got from any turning tool was from an Ellsworth gouge. I dropped it on the floor, it landed handle first, and slowly fell over towards my calf. I got a nice shallow horse shoe shaped red line... Almost like my first snake bite.... If testing the edge, I am feeling for a burr. Never rub your finger the long way along the edge, which is a micro saw blade. Had a huge laugh from some TV series where the executioner was testing the edge of his blade by running his finger along the edge from one end to the other.....

robo hippy
 

john lucas

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I dropped a.skew once and it stuck toe first into the arch of my foot. That hurt but didn't bleed a lot.
 

Martin Groneng

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What's with you "kids"? Your Mothers told you NOT to play with knives or sharp edges and you still won't listen! If you keep this up, most of your wood will look like red stained box elder (Manitoba maple) which is fantastic looking, without added blood, and great to turn!
 
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I've only turned for a couple of years so I'm not an expert, but I don't do anything to the edge except run it over the Tormek about twice to refresh the edge using their jig and it cuts very well (when my technique is right). The biggest improvement I made to sharpening was to buy the 600 grit diamond wheel when Tormek came out with it. The finer grit does seem to make a difference on my gouges and scrapers plus I can even sharpen my carbide inserts with the jig included in the Tormek gouge jig. They get "like-new" sharp also.
 
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