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Laminations, Martha Collins....

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That’s nice work. I’d be interested in learning how she does the glue-ups.

That's a good question. I asked if she showed techniques and tricks on her own website or in her classes, no she doesn't. She prefers to be secretive about a good deal of the process, but the Pratt series of photos linked from her website do show a lot about the process.

Look closely at some of the pictures, you'll see prices. $500 on up is not unusual for her bracelets.
 

odie

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Beautiful work......

The problem with lamination, is it just won't withstand the test of time. It will not remain in it's finished state forever. Wood reacts differently according to each individual piece of wood's characteristics, and the atmosphere and temperatures it's exposed to. At least that's the way it was for the kind of lamination I was doing back in the 90's.

When using small and thin pieces of wood laminated together, it could be an entirely different outcome, though.........

-----odie-----
 

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Beautiful work......

The problem with lamination, is it just won't withstand the test of time. It will not remain in it's finished state forever. Wood reacts differently according to each individual piece of wood's characteristics, and the atmosphere and temperatures it's exposed to. At least that's the way it was for the kind of lamination I was doing back in the 90's.

When using small and thin pieces of wood laminated together, it could be an entirely different outcome, though.........

-----odie-----

I disagree. If we were talking about very large pieces of wood then I would agree, but here the wood is very small and thin and therefore can't create any significant amount of force.
 

odie

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I disagree. If we were talking about very large pieces of wood then I would agree, but here the wood is very small and thin and therefore can't create any significant amount of force.
Isn't that what I said, Bill? :D
When using small and thin pieces of wood laminated together, it could be an entirely different outcome, though.........
 

john lucas

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You did say that at the end. In pieces as small as my hand mirrors wood movement can still be a problem. When you get down to 1/4" wide virtually nil. The problem then becomes glue life or strength. I have never tried any of the industrial glues or specialized glues like they use to bond glass and jewelry. We had a place in town that made customized Van's. They made laminated cutting boards as part of the decoration for the dash and center console. They had a special glue they used that would with stand the wood movement as well.as the hot and cold of the van
 

odie

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I have made numerous segmented pieces and cutting boards using Elmer's Yellow Carpenters Glue. Some of them are over 20 years old. No problems.

That seems to be true about cutting boards. I have a couple cutting boards that were made about 35 years ago, and no problems there. I've also made numerous laminated bowls with thicker pieces, and of those I'm aware of, every single one of them have separations along the glue lines from dissimilar warping of the woods. I was using Titebond back then.

I don't have digital photos of these bowls, because this was back when I was still using a film camera. It doesn't matter much, because I believe the last laminated bowl I've made was in the early 90's.......my whole philosophy about bowl turning has changed since those times.......:D

-----odie-----
 
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Seeing pictures of her work is one thing. Seeing them in person is another... Saw her at a show in Seattle years ago. Really intricate stuff.... I would expect the epoxy to be a step or three above the Titebond, but don't really know... Hope she passes along her secrets eventually....

robo hippy
 

Bill Boehme

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Isn't that what I said, Bill? :D

On second thought it looks like you did. I assumed from the first paragraph that you were concerned about the glue joints failing in the small pieces.

On your segmented pieces do you recall if the glue joints failed between rings or between segments within a ring? One problem with segmented turnings is that you have to glue side grain to end grain.
 

odie

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On second thought it looks like you did. I assumed from the first paragraph that you were concerned about the glue joints failing in the small pieces.

On your segmented pieces do you recall if the glue joints failed between rings or between segments within a ring? One problem with segmented turnings is that you have to glue side grain to end grain.

Bill, it's hard to definitively make that determination, because my memory is of a few years ago......but, I do remember that i did the lamination with alternating grain patterns at that time. It's what was considered SOP at the time. My purpose here, isn't to discourage others from doing their own experimenting, but to convey my own thoughts and experiences with the lamination that i did during that time. Certainly, I am not the final authority, but only one turner who has some experience with it.
 
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Beautiful work with lots of patience, I'll bet. If I was going to pay $500 for a bracelet, I'll go to Jared's. JMHO.
 

Bill Boehme

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Odie we have a box that my FIL made during WWII at Mcdonald Aircraft in Memphis and there are no cracks and no glue failures. However this is heart shaped and laminated like plywood.

It was McDonnell Aircraft, not to be confused with McDonald the hamburger joint. :D
 
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... I asked if she showed techniques and tricks on her own website or in her classes, no she doesn't. She prefers to be secretive about a good deal of the process, but the Pratt series of photos linked from her website do show a lot about the process. ...

Why would someone take a class where the interesting techniques are omitted?
 

odie

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Why would someone take a class where the interesting techniques are omitted?

I'm betting there are some instructors who don't tell you everything......whether they admit it, or not. Certainly there are some woodturners who feel the same about certain specialized techniques they've personally developed. This is the way it's always been.....is.....and will be in the future.

-----odie-----
 

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I'm betting there are some instructors who don't tell you everything.

1. We each have different perspectives about teachers and demonstrators. Perspectives shaped by experiences with classes and demonstrations vary with the depth and breadth of those experiences. It has been my experience that AAW woodturners are open and sharing. Sharing is fundamental to the AAW culture.

I have never been in a woodturning class where an instructor did not try to fully and accurately answer a question
Or ask the questioner to get with them later if the answer would disrupt the flow of the class.

2. I have had the privilege of working with a fair number of the best turners in world in various capacities. Those that I have worked with were all open and sharing their knowledge readily.

3. classes and demos are limited in time and the instructor must choose what to information to tell the audience to get the desired results. It would be a rare class that could cover everything the instructor knows about the subject.

Intentionally limiting the scope of a class is fundamental to an instructional plan.
Focus on what the students need to know.
Most problematic in a beginner class where it is so tempting and so wrong to tell them too much.

4. We are each limited in how many new things we can learn in a class session.
The simple model of learning is that new items go into short term memory then during down time committed to long term memory a process that frees the short term memory. Once a student’s short term memory has reached capacity learning stops until the transfer process frees short term memory.

3. I do know of several turners who will not share their finishing techniques but they don’t teach finishing. There may well be others who keep what they perceive to be a trade secrets, I just have not encountered them.
 

odie

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3. I do know of several turners who will not share their finishing techniques but they don’t teach finishing. There may well be others who keep what they perceive to be a trade secrets, I just have not encountered them.

Al......If you did encounter other turners/instructors who didn't share absolutely everything.....how would you know they didn't? :rolleyes:

-----odie-----
 
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Bill, it's hard to definitively make that determination, because my memory is of a few years ago......but, I do remember that i did the lamination with alternating grain patterns at that time. It's what was considered SOP at the time. My purpose here, isn't to discourage others from doing their own experimenting, but to convey my own thoughts and experiences with the lamination that i did during that time. Certainly, I am not the final authority, but only one turner who has some experience with it.

Maybe using many layers of of very thin wood leads to a more stable laminate because the ratio of glue to wood is much higher.
 

hockenbery

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Al......If you did encounter other turners/instructors who didn't share absolutely everything.....how would you know they didn't? :rolleyes:

-----odie-----
You ask them a question and they tell you that is something they don’t wish to share.

Of course they could flat out lie but People are bassically honest and give out wrong information only when they themselves are mis-informed. I spent much of my work years using math and science so the truth was in the facts or the mathematical proof.
 

odie

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You ask them a question and they tell you that is something they don’t wish to share.

Of course they could flat out lie but People are bassically honest and give out wrong information only when they themselves are mis-informed. I spent much of my work years using math and science so the truth was in the facts or the mathematical proof.

Or......they could just give you an alternative answer, that doesn't require them to lie.......just not telling you everything. I guess you just have to know people who do this, to understand how their mental mechanisms work..... ! o_O
 

hockenbery

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Or......they could just give you an alternative answer, that doesn't require them to lie.......just not telling you everything. I guess you just have to know people who do this, to understand how their mental mechanisms work..... ! o_O

When I spend a week or a weekend with other turners we exchange ideas and tips.
Ask each other questions. I have always thought they were all honest.
 
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Lets try this one more time. Sheesh...

OP: ... "She told me the laminations are glued all at once rather than a layer at a time using jeweler's epoxy."
Next post: "That’s nice work. I’d be interested in learning how she does the glue-ups."
OP: "... I asked if she showed techniques and tricks on her own website or in her classes, no she doesn't. She prefers to be secretive about a good deal of the process, ..."

Why take a class where the interesting technique(s) are purposefully omitted?
 
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By looking at the pictures you can see some of the basic methods they use to glue and laminate the segmented billets. Cutting and gluing the odd shaped pieces into the complex shapes usually requires pre-cutting, pre-sanding, pre-fitting all of the pieces together prior to gluing. When each layer of the segment is offset to the next layer you need to index the entire stack by dry-fitting and clamping the stack of laminates and drilling a hole for a dowel or cutting a slot or notch to index against in a jig that holds the pieces when gluing. A simple method is drawing a line with a pencil on the side of the dry-fitted stack and matching the line when you glue all of the pieces together. This sounds like a simple method until you attempt to do this with multiple wet glued pieces that you are handling one at a time trying to stack them up and line them up at the same time. Reading some of the books authored by skilled segmented artists will provide various methods that have been employed to overcome some of these difficult tasks. Each type of item usually requires a different approach to laminating and gluing multiple pieces at one sitting. Some people use stainless steel clamps to secure segmented wedges into rings, some people use rubber bands, some people use masking tape. When stacking multiple layers together some people will pin or dowel the stacks, some people will use pneumatic nail gun and small nails to secure the stacks in place. Some people will cut the laminates to a specific dimension that fits into a jig that will keep them aligned while clamping. Cutting 2 or 3 notches on the outside or inside of a ring when dry fitted will provide an index when gluing that can be set up on a jig that the pieces are dropped into that line them up to be clamped. No easy way to do these complex pieces.
 
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Lets try this one more time. Sheesh...

OP: ... "She told me the laminations are glued all at once rather than a layer at a time using jeweler's epoxy."
Next post: "That’s nice work. I’d be interested in learning how she does the glue-ups."
OP: "... I asked if she showed techniques and tricks on her own website or in her classes, no she doesn't. She prefers to be secretive about a good deal of the process, ..."

Why take a class where the interesting technique(s) are purposefully omitted?

So in this class she just teaches how to cut the pre-laminated pieces, put them together and turn them? Seems like the lamination process wasn't part of the class, which is fine if that was the expectation of the students. Maybe she should set up another class for this, or maybe she intends to take it to the grave.
 
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Lets try this one more time. Sheesh...

OP: ... "She told me the laminations are glued all at once rather than a layer at a time using jeweler's epoxy."
Next post: "That’s nice work. I’d be interested in learning how she does the glue-ups."
OP: "... I asked if she showed techniques and tricks on her own website or in her classes, no she doesn't. She prefers to be secretive about a good deal of the process, ..."

Why take a class where the interesting technique(s) are purposefully omitted?

I was as surprised as you by her answer to my question, but figured in a 5 day class most students couldn't avoid coming away with an understanding of issues involved in doing the work. She teaches in at least three places locally, it's fair to assume she's a good teacher. I got quite a bit of information myself in just 20 minutes or so in her booth with our conversation being interrupted by lookers and potential buyers.

I learned about the epoxy jeweler's glue with long working time and overnight to set. That the wood segments are band sawed to precision thickness instead of being planed, one of the pictures seems to confirm that, in a closeup of a glue stack the unplaned surface roughness seems apparent. And that she eyeballs alignment of the wet glue stacks (a couple pictures imply glueing jigs though).
 

Bill Boehme

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Lets try this one more time. Sheesh...

OP: ... "She told me the laminations are glued all at once rather than a layer at a time using jeweler's epoxy."
Next post: "That’s nice work. I’d be interested in learning how she does the glue-ups."
OP: "... I asked if she showed techniques and tricks on her own website or in her classes, no she doesn't. She prefers to be secretive about a good deal of the process, ..."

Why take a class where the interesting technique(s) are purposefully omitted?

There are probably many reasons. What you want to know isn't necessarily what somebody else wants to learn. After taking the class you may be able to invent your own "interesting techniques" or reverse engineer them from what you learn in the class. Challenging yourself to be creative can be a better learning experience than being spoon fed.
 
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That's a good question. I asked if she showed techniques and tricks on her own website or in her classes, no she doesn't. She prefers to be secretive about a good deal of the process, but the Pratt series of photos linked from her website do show a lot about the process.

Look closely at some of the pictures, you'll see prices. $500 on up is not unusual for her bracelets.
Emmm...

I've attended two programs from her, one at the Bremerton club, one at the Sequim club.
In both she talked about how she does her work, enough so any one with reasonable skill could do it.
She was also at Portland with a booth, but didn't any any programs
 
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That seems to be true about cutting boards. I have a couple cutting boards that were made about 35 years ago, and no problems there. I've also made numerous laminated bowls with thicker pieces, and of those I'm aware of, every single one of them have separations along the glue lines from dissimilar warping of the woods. I was using Titebond back then.

I don't have digital photos of these bowls, because this was back when I was still using a film camera. It doesn't matter much, because I believe the last laminated bowl I've made was in the early 90's.......my whole philosophy about bowl turning has changed since those times.......:D

-----odie-----
I’ve gotten interested in turning a “tumbling bowl” but it’s difficult to find step by step instructions. Do you know any good sources?
 

odie

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I’ve gotten interested in turning a “tumbling bowl” but it’s difficult to find step by step instructions. Do you know any good sources?

Hello Peter......I'm the wrong person to ask this, because I've never been very successful with laminating bowls. If I had stuck with it, maybe I'd know a little more about it, but my interests have evolved to other things.......

Hopefully, someone will come along and give you the information you need. :D

-----odie-----
 
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Cut, sand, glue and repeat. There are a number of techniques you can use on a table saw and band saw using a miter sled. There are plenty of videos on YouTube that cover the segmented process for various projects. There are a number of books authored by skilled crafts people dealing with the segmented process. You can also search Google for pdf files that cover this process many crafts people have developed various techniques and different materials used in this art form. The finely detailed pieces require precise cutting and angles to achieve proper alignment of the multiple layers laminated. Start with several simple projects and work your way up to the fine detail work, developing a work process and discipline is the key to success in the fine detail geometric designed pieces.
 

odie

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Like a Microsoft of Wood Turning ;-)

Mike.......The general thinking among turners, is most turning instructors do not hold back any information. I think, for the most part, that's true, but I don't consider it to be a universal belief that includes ALL turning instructors, and others who volunteer information for general consumption. The more some information falls into a category of personal insight as a result of individual experimentation, the more likely that person will be inclined to not give away what it took a lot of blood, sweat and tears to acquire! IMHO, this is simply human nature, and don't hold these individuals in contempt for their decision to protect what is theirs through their own individual efforts. :D

-----odie-----
 

Emiliano Achaval

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I talked to David Ellsworth at length about this. When I was trying to start the club here, some turners told me why would they want to tell their "secrets". David encountered this on his first trip to France, many years ago. The French could not believe David was sharing everything he knew. David calls it the "Island" mentality. Not because of Maui, LOL Years later, he went back. People had developed their own style, based on his teachings. We are all individuals, we are on an ever-changing journey. I personally do not care for artists with "secrets" I would never buy a piece from one.
We are celebrating our 5th club anniversary, I have had the opportunity to host some of the world's top artists. One thing they all had in common is their willingness to share everything they know. Can you imagine taking a class from someone, then they tell you, sorry, that I can't teach you that step, is a secret. It's a good thing nobody so far has done that here. If they ever do, I would put their suitcases by the gate and call an Uber for them. Sorry, for the rant, it is personal for me. When I was a very green turner, I called a now-famous turner, but with a rapidly declining career due to his prices, and I asked, well, I begged him, to please give me a few lessons. He told me to call me in a few days. I did, and he told me, sorry, I won't, what I do I do not really want to teach to anyone. This famous artist is now selling pieces of Koa on Facebook to make ends meet.
 
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