Friction polish for glossy finish...pros and cons.

[Grey Darrah]

I've got a couple of larger hollow forms (12 to 14 inches, black cherry and ambrosia maple, both end grain pieces) that I want a high gloss finish on. Understanding that the foundation to any great finish is the prep (I'm going up to 2000 grit on my sanding) I was thinking of trying a friction polish and wondered what any of your experiences with it are. Specifically, I'm considering what's commonly referred to as O. B. Shine Juice, made up of equal parts Bulls Eye Clear Shellac, boiled linseed oil and denatured alcohol.

I'd appreciate any good or bad experiences anyone has had with this type of finish, and I'm open to other high gloss suggestions. Let me say that I have no experience with spraying anything.

Finally, I realize that there are plenty of people who prefer a low to subtle sheen on their work, but I'm really looking for high gloss on these pieces. If we all like the same things, it would be a really boring world.

Thanks for any help,
Grey

 

[Bill Boehme]

I've got a couple of larger hollow forms (12 to 14 inches, black cherry and ambrosia maple, both end grain pieces) that I want a high gloss finish on. Understanding that the foundation to any great finish is the prep (I'm going up to 2000 grit on my sanding) I was thinking of trying a friction polish and wondered what any of your experiences with it are. Specifically, I'm considering what's commonly referred to as O. B. Shine Juice, made up of equal parts Bulls Eye Clear Shellac, boiled linseed oil and denatured alcohol.

I'd appreciate any good or bad experiences anyone has had with this type of finish, and I'm open to other high gloss suggestions. Let me say that I have no experience with spraying anything.

Finally, I realize that there are plenty of people who prefer a low to subtle sheen on their work, but I'm really looking for high gloss on these pieces. If we all like the same things, it would be a really boring world.

Thanks for any help,
Grey

I'm generally not a fan of mixing different kinds of finishes together, however, a number of turners do it so take my opinion to be worth what you paid for it. Of course, shellac and denatured alcohol are meant for each other, but I don't know what is gained by mixing it with linseed oil. I can envision more problems (such as a softer finish) than benefits.

I think that friction finishes can give a nice sheen, but maybe not really high gloss simply because it is a friction finish. My favorite glass smooth high gloss finish is spray lacquer. For practical reasons I use rattle-can lacquer (actually, Deft lacquer doesn't have a marble) and apply many coats. Then I use Micromesh and water to level and polish the finish and Novus 2 polish applied with cotton balls for the final step. This is a HUGE amount of work, but I think that it is worth the effort.

 

[Clifton C]

I Used Mylands early on on smaller items, didn't seem vary durable. For larger items as I remember it was easy to get streaks. Eventually I just moved on to other finishes. I've never used O.B. seems like thinned out shellac with some BLO. BLO adds its own color to wood and sometimes muddies up spalted wood.
Woodturners don't always like shiny but the folks with the money do, so, shiny is good sometimes... For high gloss I like lacquer, there are some good rattle can lacquers. As Bill said, Deft is good, so is H. Behlen, Don't think that thinned Lacquer is the same as sanding sealer, get sanding sealer, I use Behlens B 102-8000.
and lacquer B 104-1406. Remember, the finish can make or break a project. Spray some lacquer... You can do it...

 

[Gerald Lawrence]

I have used O.B. and it will give a high gloss but takes a lot of work. I would call it a french polish in the round. You will make repeated applications with a rolled or padded applicator of soft cloth. In a way it is fool proof because shellac is easy to repair. To me it is finicky to get to that high polish and not a fall off a log finish. My preference for high gloss would also be like Bill lacquer

 

[Eli Polite]

It’s hard to beat a 2 part finish. By 2 part I mean a finish that requires a catalyst. like a 2 part lacquer most often used in the automotive industry. Or a 2 part polyurethane. Even a 2 part clear epoxy is good but than you can run into problems with UV on epoxy. It’s hard to beat the hardness of a 2 part finish. If applied properly and sanded properly there are no waves In the finish it’s as smooth as glass

 

[Mike Johnson]

You also have the traditional finishes that can easily be applied and then easily be repaired or refreshed. Shellac finishes are quick and easy to apply and if they need to be refreshed or repaired you can easily clean the piece and apply a fresh coat which will bond onto the original shellac. Your traditional oil finishes are also quick and easy to apply and if they need to be refreshed or repaired you can also clean the piece and apply a fresh coat of oil finish to the piece. Some of the modern finishes can be somewhat troublesome when repairing or refreshing a finished piece. You need to verify the type of polymer finish that was used on a piece before you can attempt to make a repair or refresh. If you apply a product that is not compatible with the original finish you can encounter a number of problems.

 

[Clifton C]

We used to buy pre-cat lacquer in 5 gallon buckets, had a shelf life, 6 months maybe. I never thought to look for pre-cat rattle can lacquer until now...
Behlen makes one, B103-023 sealer and B103-020 gloss lacquer. Ordered some, so we'll see how it behaves.

 

[Bill Boehme]

Our club buys high solids pre-cat lacquer and sealer. I think it is made by Mohawk.

 

[Gerald Lawrence]

You also have the traditional finishes that can easily be applied and then easily be repaired or refreshed. Shellac finishes are quick and easy to apply and if they need to be refreshed or repaired you can easily clean the piece and apply a fresh coat which will bond onto the original shellac..

A misconception some have on shellac . The next application does not bond to the previous coat, all applications blend as one total coat , no layers , it is all one .

 

[john lucas]

Not a fan of friction polishes on larger objects. Very hard to get smooth. My favorite high gloss finish is Birchwood-Casey true oil. You can buy it in the gun department of Walmart of any good sporting goods store. It's designed as a durable glossy finish for gun stocks and is very easy to apply. You put on a coat, let it dry overnight. Then sand with 600 grit until it's all satin except for small dots or depressions that can be the grain of the wood or other minor defects. Put on another coat and do the same thing tomorrow. Sometimes on the last few coats I use 4/0 steel wool instead of 600 grit. Usually after about 10 coats or so it's build up enough to cover all minor holes and pores. When you can no longer see any glossy dots your ready for the final coat. Put that coat on and let it dry. Then I use automotive polishing compounds to bring it up to a glass like gloss. I have done the same thing with spray on lacquer but takes quite a few more coats. It's also tricky to get the spray to go down without any orange peel unless you have a lot of experience spraying.

 

[Grey Darrah]

"Woodturners don't always like shiny but the folks with the money do"... that's it exactly!

OK, I'm in on trying lacquer. Is there much I need to know outside of general spraying techniques?

1. You mentioned sanding sealer. Is that something I definitely want to put on before my first spray coat?
2. How long after the sealer goes on do I need to wait before spraying my first lacquer coat?
3. What, if anything is done between coats (sanding with 2000 grit...I don'd use steel wool)?

Thanks,
Grey

I Used Mylands early on on smaller items, didn't seem vary durable. For larger items as I remember it was easy to get streaks. Eventually I just moved on to other finishes. I've never used O.B. seems like thinned out shellac with some BLO. BLO adds its own color to wood and sometimes muddies up spalted wood.
Woodturners don't always like shiny but the folks with the money do, so, shiny is good sometimes... For high gloss I like lacquer, there are some good rattle can lacquers. As Bill said, Deft is good, so is H. Behlen, Don't think that thinned Lacquer is the same as sanding sealer, get sanding sealer, I use Behlens B 102-8000.
and lacquer B 104-1406. Remember, the finish can make or break a project. Spray some lacquer... You can do it...

 

[Clifton C]

100 different ways... But you know that by now
This is sort of my schedule, things can change depending on my whims and the weather. Sand till satisfied, clean sanding dust. Spray on wet coat of sanding sealer. let dry (about 15 minutes if the temp and humidity is right) I sand with SiaSoft 800 or 1000 or 1200 whatever feels right. If little hard shiny disks about a 16th to an 8th inch dia. appear on the sanding film the finish is not dry enough, give it a few and try again. It's not a hard rub, more like a wipe, the surface will be silky smooth. Wipe off the dust. Another seal coat, let dry a little longer then the first time. Sand again with whatever was used the first time. Dust. Now it's time for the lacquer. Spray wet coat, sand, dust, repeat. The more coats put on, the longer the wait should be between coats. If the finish is put on quickly, in a week or so, the finish will show the pores of the wood (if there are pores). There is a lot that hasn't been written, the best bet is to get a can of each, a board, and spray away...
Lacquer is a good finish, with a little practice, not that hard to apply.

 

[Bill Boehme]

"Woodturners don't always like shiny but the folks with the money do"... that's it exactly!

OK, I'm in on trying lacquer. Is there much I need to know outside of general spraying techniques?

1. You mentioned sanding sealer. Is that something I definitely want to put on before my first spray coat?
2. How long after the sealer goes on do I need to wait before spraying my first lacquer coat?
3. What, if anything is done between coats (sanding with 2000 grit...I don'd use steel wool)?

Thanks,
Grey

Lacquer is a drying finish as opposed to varnish which is a curing finish. Well actually there are catalyzing lacquers that cure by cross linking.over a period of one or two weeks. There is no reason to sand between coats because each new coat partially dissolves the previous coat. The only reason to sand between coats is to level any surface defects such as orange peel. A good sandpaper grit for leveling the finish is 320 followed by 400. After the final coat of lacquer I start with 1500 grit Micromesh and go through all the grits up through 12,000.

If you use sanding sealer, then you definitely should sand it (that's why they call it sanding sealer). The main advantage of sanding sealer is that it will fill small pores. The main disadvantage is that it contains zinc sterate which will slightly cloud the wood texture. I rarely use sanding sealer except on strongly ring porous wood. Follow label instructions on how long to wait.

When applying the lacquer topcoat use many light coats rather than a few heavy coats. Read the label instructions regarding temperature and humidity. If the humidity is too high the finish is likely to blush. Same thing if the coats are too thick. Keep the spray moving at a constant speed.

 

[Don Jarvie]

I’ve used Shellawax on some pieces that are meant goer display and not daily handling. It’s held up well and takes minutes to apply.

 

[William Rogers]

I usually use Zinzer de-waxed shellac (SealCoat) before applying finish. Two coats sanding each coat. For glossy finish I use either lacquer or wipe on poly. Wipe on poly provides the most gloss. For wipe on poly I usually apply 5-6 thin coats of gloss followed by 5-6 coats of semi gloss on the lathe at around 60 rpm. I wet sand to 4000. I like the Huts crystal coat as it is easily removed if it gets into tight places where some polishes seem to cake and are difficult to remove. Since I'm low volume I use rattle can lacquer, just about every brand. I'm not going to say one brand is better than the other as each has it's place.

 

[john lucas]

I have never found a need for sanding sealer. The first few coat of lacquer do pretty much the same thing especially if you dilute them a little more than the final coats. With any finish you use if you want really really glossy you simply have to apply enough coats to make sure everything is filled and perfectly smooth. Then you have to finish the finish. Most finishes aren't perfect when they dry. They need that final finishing which is why you rub it out is things like Pumice and Rohtenstone or automotive finishes.

 

[Grey Darrah]

So William Rogers (a few post above) feels like wipe on poly provides a higher gloss than lacquer. Any other opinions on that? Also, which is more difficult to get just right?

Thanks,
Grey

 

[Fred Belknap]

I use gloss WOP (wipe on polyurethane) it is easy to put on and it makes a good strong glossy finish. I use a folded paper shop towel to apply. To get a good glossy finish you will need at least four coats. Lite sanding with high grit sandpaper between coats if it feels rough. I just keep putting it on till I get what shine I want.

 

[Gerald Lawrence]

One point about poly is that it imparts more of a yellowing than any other finish. This effect increases with time and light exposure.

 

[Bill Boehme]

So William Rogers (a few post above) feels like wipe on poly provides a higher gloss than lacquer. Any other opinions on that? Also, which is more difficult to get just right?

Thanks,
Grey

Many years ago when I was doing flat woodworking, WOP was my favorite topcoat applied over a thinned blonde dewaxed shellac. I used Varathane polyurethane thinned 50 - 50 with VM&P naphtha for quicker drying or Stoddard solvent for slower drying. Even though the VOCs flash off quickly, the polyurethane actually takes several weeks to fully cure.

 

[john lucas]

If you polish the finish wipe on poly gives the same gloss as lacquer, shellac or True oil. Depth of the gloss is a matter of how thick the finish is. Thick glossy finishes look like crap if they are not perfectly smooth and polished. I see a lot of that at craft fairs. They just brush on a thick layer of whatever and you can see the excess build up and sometimes brush marks. Not a good look. There is a color difference between each one and some change color as they age. My own experience is that wipe on poly gives the least color change but some brands of poly give a bluish tint which is not good on wood. Lacquers and shellac usually gives a warm tint which is better. I have not done enough or kept good records so can't tell you which ones change and which one don't. I do know that from experience wipe on poly (or brush on for that matter) gives a much more abrasion resistant finish. Polyeurethane however can't be touched up if you get a scratch in the finish whereas lacquer and shellac can be touched up.

 

[Dennis Weiner]

I prefer lacquer, but I cannot negotiate the fumes in my small shop.
I’m with you John, Poly can be very glossy.
Lately, I have been using a gloss water-based poly that I dilute with water 1:1. I don’t know the brand because it was excess from my floor refinisher. You apply a small amount and immediately rub it off with a lint free cloth. Allow to dry between coats and repeat until you get the build desired. Depending on the spieces, you may have to lightly sand if the grain is raised. Usually 5 coats is a good foundation for the Bealle Buffing System.
I was taught the dilute, apply and rub off method by a club member who was associated with an old time piano finisher. He uses oil based finishes that he dilutes with paint thinner. After learning this method, I retired my shop made carousel driven by a 5 rpm rotisserie motor.

No runs, no drips no errors!

 

[Alex Leibowitz]

This was a bowl I turned out of old 5 ply oak flooring. All ply's were oak so you know it was old. hade to make it thick and had to do quite a bit of filling. Came out ok. Sure dulled the tools fast...maybe the old glue they used.

 

[Grey Darrah]

So I just finished an ambrosia maple HF with my first-time using spray lacquer (Minwax Gloss Spray Can). I was waiting about 1 hour between coats (the can recommended 30 minutes, so I gave it a little more). Somewhere around my 7th or 8th coat, I noticed that one area where there is some darker ambrosia figure, it got a little cloudy/white-ish looking (not too bad, but I noticed it). I've stopped now at 10 coats and plan to lightly sand with 1200 grit to get a solid matte looking finish, then plan on using a little Meguiar's Polishing Compound to bring out what I'm hoping is a glassy finish.

3 Questions:

1. What likely caused my cloudy area so I can avoid it in the future?
2. Will the light sanding (just trying to knock off the very top layer and make sure it's uber smooth) and polishing likely clear up the slight cloudiness in that one area?
3. If anyone's used Minwax spray lacquer, is it OK to sand and polish a couple hours after my last coat, or do I need to give it 24 or more hours to "fully cure" before doing that?

Thanks,
Grey

 

[Bill Boehme]

So I just finished an ambrosia maple HF with my first-time using spray lacquer (Minwax Gloss Spray Can). I was waiting about 1 hour between coats (the can recommended 30 minutes, so I gave it a little more). Somewhere around my 7th or 8th coat, I noticed that one area where there is some darker ambrosia figure, it got a little cloudy/white-ish looking (not too bad, but I noticed it). I've stopped now at 10 coats and plan to lightly sand with 1200 grit to get a solid matte looking finish, then plan on using a little Meguiar's Polishing Compound to bring out what I'm hoping is a glassy finish.

3 Questions:

1. What likely caused my cloudy area so I can avoid it in the future?

A couple things ... high humidity is the most problematic, but applying heavy coats will exacerbate the situation. As soon as you see the problem stop spraying and move the piece into an air-conditioned low humidity area. As much as possible, avoid spraying during a hot humid day. Apply only very light coats. I generally first apply a very light tack coat, wait a couple minutes and then apply the regular wet coat which is jus barely enough to have a wet surface.

2. Will the light sanding (just trying to knock off the very top layer and make sure it's uber smooth) and polishing likely clear up the slight cloudiness in that one area?

The cloudiness is trapped moisture. It happens when the surface cools as VOCs evaporate. The problem is the worst when the temperature/dew point spread is only a few degrees (a typical summer morning in the South). It normally clears up if no additional coats are applied on top of the cloudy layer. I don't know about ten coats .... that might not completely clear up. Personally, I think that ten coats may be more than you need, but circumstances vary and you will have to be the judge of when enough is enough. I wait until a coat feels dry to the touch before applying another coat and I usually wait overnight after spraying three coats before applying any additional coats

My perspective on getting a high gloss finish is that the bare wood needs to be perfectly smooth and sanded to a very high grit ... to the point where the bare wood shines. Otherwise, it's a huge amount of extra work to compensate for a less than perfect bare wood surface by basically "finishing the finish" to a perfect surface.

3. If anyone's used Minwax spray lacquer, is it OK to sand and polish a couple hours after my last coat, or do I need to give it 24 or more hours to "fully cure" before doing that?

The finish is far from being fully cured after only 24 hours. It might feel fully cured, but under the dry surface the lacquer is still quite soft. You can tell by the strong smell that it is still outgassing. Sanding at this stage is very likely to cause problems in getting a good gloss. Ideally, wait a week or more, but three days if at all possible. The finish will get harder each day. This is especially important with catalyzing lacquer and even more so with polyurethane varnish which should be given about two or three weeks to cure.

 

[Grey Darrah]

Thanks for all the details. Actually, the cloudiness only occurred around the 7th or maybe 8th coat. It had cleared itself not long after I posted this and looks great now. I had originally sanded to 2000 and had a really shiny surface before I started with the lacquer. As you suggested, I'll wait 4 or 5 days before I lightly sand and start polishing.

Grey

A couple things ... high humidity is the most problematic, but applying heavy coats will exacerbate the situation. As soon as you see the problem stop spraying and move the piece into an air-conditioned low humidity area. As much as possible, avoid spraying during a hot humid day. Apply only very light coats. I generally first apply a very light tack coat, wait a couple minutes and then apply the regular wet coat which is jus barely enough to have a wet surface.



The cloudiness is trapped moisture. It happens when the surface cools as VOCs evaporate. The problem is the worst when the temperature/dew point spread is only a few degrees (a typical summer morning in the South). It normally clears up if no additional coats are applied on top of the cloudy layer. I don't know about ten coats .... that might not completely clear up. Personally, I think that ten coats may be more than you need, but circumstances vary and you will have to be the judge of when enough is enough. I wait until a coat feels dry to the touch before applying another coat and I usually wait overnight after spraying three coats before applying any additional coats

My perspective on getting a high gloss finish is that the bare wood needs to be perfectly smooth and sanded to a very high grit ... to the point where the bare wood shines. Otherwise, it's a huge amount of extra work to compensate for a less than perfect bare wood surface by basically "finishing the finish" to a perfect surface.



The finish is far from being fully cured after only 24 hours. It might feel fully cured, but under the dry surface the lacquer is still quite soft. You can tell by the strong smell that it is still outgassing. Sanding at this stage is very likely to cause problems in getting a good gloss. Ideally, wait a week or more, but three days if at all possible. The finish will get harder each day. This is especially important with catalyzing lacquer and even more so with polyurethane varnish which should be given about two or three weeks to cure.

 

[hughie]

I have used a local Australian product that cross links with oxygen and hardens up. But its a lot of work sanding down to the thousand zeros to get the magic finish. So I have moved away from it, nothing wrong with the product just me I am impatient with finishes.

 

[Grey Darrah]

I've now finished some Minwax clear lacquer pieces and love the look. Giving them a couple of weeks to de-gas before using some light sanding and polishing compound to finish.

When I was stocking up on my spray cans, I also noticed a Minwax spray on poly. Has anyone ever tried this product (or any other branded spray can poly)? I was wondering how it compared to the lacquer? I love the look of the lacquer, but waiting for it to cure/de-gas is a real trial of patience.

Grey

 

[Gerald Lawrence]

I use the spray poly on things I want to have a resilient and durable finish. It will buff out easier than lacquer but takes longer to dry. Not as much of a learning curve to apply as lacquer. I do not use it on any of my better turnings , just do not like poly.

 

[Bill Boehme]

I love the look of the lacquer, but waiting for it to cure/de-gas is a real trial of patience.

Well, if waiting for lacquer to dry seems too long then I can't imagine what polyurethane is going to do to you. Polyurethane cures by crosslinking chemical reaction and takes several times longer to cure than lacquer which cures by evaporation of the solvents.

For best results gives polyurethane two or three weeks (longer is better) before you try to do any leveling and polishing. Give lacquer at least two or three days ... a week would be even better.

 

[Grey Darrah]

Thanks to both of you for the reply. I'm sticking with the lacquer. It's a really nice finish, even before I've sanded/polished it.

Grey

Well, if waiting for lacquer to dry seems too long then I can't imagine what polyurethane is going to do to you. Polyurethane cures by crosslinking chemical reaction and takes several times longer to cure than lacquer which cures by evaporation of the solvents.

For best results gives polyurethane two or three weeks (longer is better) before you try to do any leveling and polishing. Give lacquer at least two or three days ... a week would be even better.