Couple of hollow vessel questions.

[Grey Darrah]

I'm going to try out hollowing (using some Trent Bosch tools/rest) and have a couple of questions. Sorry for my ignorance, but we all were new at some point.

1. If you turn the type of vessel that seems to have a relatively small opening with kind of a live edge to it, after it dies and you've finished it, how do you go about removing the chuck tenon? With a bowl you can always use compression from the tail stock to hold it against a smaller turned piece in your chuck, turn down the tenon to a nub, then chisel/saw off the nub. But with the type of vessel I described, I have a hard time envisioning you compressing that small, uneven diameter of the opening to anything.

2. This could apply to a lot of turned objects, but if you're turning green wood to a thin finished state (1/8 to 1/4 inch) and you're planing to let it dry and likely warp to some degree, do most turners do a fair amount of sanding while it's still wet, or is it best to just wait until it's dry to do it all.

Thanks,
Grey

 

[Gerald Lawrence]

1. you would have to make a jamb chuck with the center deep and open. Also you could just carve the tenon off which may be the easiest way to go with Foredom or microcarver.

2. Sand wet but may have to sand again after dry because the drying may cause grain to raise but not too much at the 1/8 because it is mostly dry after turning. Also could try blowing compressed air into the piece and will dry on the lathe literally.

 

[Grey Darrah]

1. you would have to make a jamb chuck with the center deep and open. Also you could just carve the tenon off which may be the easiest way to go with Foredom or microcarver.

2. Sand wet but may have to sand again after dry because the drying may cause grain to raise but not too much at the 1/8 because it is mostly dry after turning. Also could try blowing compressed air into the piece and will dry on the lathe literally.

Thanks for the answers. I didn't think of a long jam chuck...I'm guessing something sort of like a mini baseball bat???

I also wanted the say that this forum is great. Having many interest, I belong to many forums and I'm pleasantly surprised at how friendly and helpful this one is. Forums are always filled with new people asking a lot of the same repetitive questions, making it easy for the responses to become quite snarky.

Thanks to all.

 

[Richard Coers]

https://www.rubberchucky.com/store/p15/Reverse_Chucky/Mini_Reverse_Chucky.html

 

[Grey Darrah]

https://www.rubberchucky.com/store/p15/Reverse_Chucky/Mini_Reverse_Chucky.html

Nice tool...thanks a lot!

Grey

 

[hockenbery]

This could apply to a lot of turned objects, but if you're turning green wood to a thin finished state (1/8 to 1/4 inch) and you're planing to let it dry and likely warp to some degree, do most turners do a fair amount of sanding while it's still wet, or is it best to just wait until it's dry to do it all.

My on the lathe sanding is limited to details like a bead or a cove which can’t be sanded without distorting the feature after the form dries. These features I sand with abranet which sands wet wood quite well.
All other sanding Imdo off the lathe after the form has dried. About 3days after turning.
I try to get a surface that can be sanded with 220.

Sanding on the lathe increases the risk of cracking. The form is drying more unevenly the more you sand. Also while turning I spray water on the form with a plant mister if I think the wood is drying out.

Regarding jamb chucks that has been answered well. There are basically two methods one to use a chuck with a rim that rests in the shoulder of the piece.
Something like the rubber chucky is what I use most of the time. Almost impossible to crack the form with too much pressure from the tailstock.

I use the Bosch bars a lot.

 

[Grey Darrah]

My on the lathe sanding is limited to details like a bead or a cove which can’t be sanded without distorting the feature after the form dries. These features I sand with abranet which sands wet wood quite well.
All other sanding Imdo off the lathe after the form has dried. About 3days after turning.
I try to get a surface that can be sanded with 220.

Sanding on the lathe increases the risk of cracking. The form is drying more unevenly the more you sand. Also while turning I spray water on the form with a plant mister if I think the wood is drying out.

Regarding jamb chucks that has been answered well. There are basically two methods one to use a chuck with a rim that rests in the shoulder of the piece.
Something like the rubber chucky is what I use most of the time. Almost impossible to crack the form with too much pressure from the tailstock.

I use the Bosch bars a lot.

Thanks. All great ideas. I didn't really think about the friction heat created while sanding wet wood on the lathe, but I'm sure it could accelerate drying in areas being sanded and promote possible cracks.

I'm curious...since you don't sand the whole vessel on the lathe, do you usually end up removing the tenon immediately after turning, or wait until it's finished drying?

Grey

 

[John Tisdale]

After the last hollowing/final shaping/final sanding I:
- remove the outter screws from the 6" faceplate
- dive under to make a 4" or less tenon
- cut about 1/4"-rim for the base (the actual area that sits on the table or shelf)
- extend out to about a 3.5" or less tenon
- attached a floor flange for 1/2" pipe, insert about a 10" pipe, and have a great way to handle the piece for finishing
After the finishing is done, time to final cut the concave base
- I use the Kelton mandrel - the "rubber chucky" appears it would work as well
- Mount and then waste the tenon down to about a 1/4" cone
- Carefully take the piece off, snip the little cone with sharp diagonal cutters, sand and your done.

 

[hockenbery]

I'm curious...since you don't sand the whole vessel on the lathe, do you usually end up removing the tenon immediately after turning, or wait until it's finished drying?

I do all the turning in one session including removing the tenon before drying.
Most of my HFs are done on a face plate and a chunk of wood like the faceplate tenon make the form crack.
Also as much as possible I want to blend the turned away waste wood into the outside form.

 

[Dennis Weiner]

This is an example the final stages of finishing a hollow form.




First picture is the HF still on a chuck after I fitted a lid. overall is about 12 x 9. The bottom needs to be finalized and the waste removed. When starting a form I generally turn between centers with the 1 way dead center. It leaves the same indentation as the live center and the wood could be flipped if need be. The original center marks were used in photo 3.’k

2nd picture is a jam chuck that was made from some scrape wood. The tenon is about 4 inches to match the hole in the form. I use wrapping foam between the jam chuck and the work to prevent burning and to promote friction for a better hold.

3rd picture shows the jam chuck and the live center holding the work. The bottom of the piece is reshaped with the waste turned away and Ready to be parted off. I actually sawed it and sanded the nub.

4th photo is the finished piece. It was shellacked and Bealled
I felted the interior.

 

[Grey Darrah]

Thanks so much for taking the time to explain that as well as upload images. It all makes sense and I really like your Jan chuck.

Grey

View attachment 25418 This is an example the final stages of finishing a hollow form.




First picture is the HF still on a chuck after I fitted a lid. overall is about 12 x 9. The bottom needs to be finalized and the waste removed. When starting a form I generally turn between centers with the 1 way dead center. It leaves the same indentation as the live center and the wood could be flipped if need be. The original center marks were used in photo 3.’k
View attachment 25419
2nd picture is a jam chuck that was made from some scrape wood. The tenon is about 4 inches to match the hole in the form. I use wrapping foam between the jam chuck and the work to prevent burning and to promote friction for a better hold.
View attachment 25421
3rd picture shows the jam chuck and the live center holding the work. The bottom of the piece is reshaped with the waste turned away and Ready to be parted off. I actually sawed it and sanded the nub.

4th photo is the finished piece. It was shellacked and Bealled
I felted the interior.
View attachment 25424

 

[Grey Darrah]

Out of curiousity, excluding any finishing work, how much time would you guess you spent turning that HF?

Thanks,
Grey

View attachment 25418 This is an example the final stages of finishing a hollow form.




First picture is the HF still on a chuck after I fitted a lid. overall is about 12 x 9. The bottom needs to be finalized and the waste removed. When starting a form I generally turn between centers with the 1 way dead center. It leaves the same indentation as the live center and the wood could be flipped if need be. The original center marks were used in photo 3.’k
View attachment 25419
2nd picture is a jam chuck that was made from some scrape wood. The tenon is about 4 inches to match the hole in the form. I use wrapping foam between the jam chuck and the work to prevent burning and to promote friction for a better hold.
View attachment 25421
3rd picture shows the jam chuck and the live center holding the work. The bottom of the piece is reshaped with the waste turned away and Ready to be parted off. I actually sawed it and sanded the nub.

4th photo is the finished piece. It was shellacked and Bealled
I felted the interior.
View attachment 25424

 

[hockenbery]

Out of curiousity, excluding any finishing work, how much time would you guess you spent turning that HF?

Thanks,
Grey

Time depends on size.
Bowls go up in time by about the diameter,
A 16” bowl takes about twice what an 8” bowl does

Hollow forms tend to go up by the square.
A 14” diameter Hf takes 4x the time of a 7” diameter form

I do demos of hollow forms an 7-8” diameter with a large opening I can do in about 20 minutes.
From a blank cut round on a bandsaw. The demo time runs about an hour.

A 12” diameter hollow form take a bit over an hour usually.

This is a demo piece turned froma 1/4 log to get the pitcher lip.
I used it to to test some sandcarving

 

[Dennis Weiner]

Grey, it would be very difficult for me to come up with an estimate. I started it about a year ago, restarted and stopped many times. It was very dry cherry 12.5x16 blank and was not very pleasant to hollow. I am a hobbyist, not a professional. If it were green wood, it would probably take me a good 2 days to form and hollow so little sanding is required.

 

[Grey Darrah]

I'm terrible. I'm working on a12x12 bowl today and after 5.5 hours, I've still got quiet a bit of hollowing on the inside left to do.

That piece you showed is awesome.

Grey

Time depends on size.
Bowls go up in time by about the diameter,
A 16” bowl takes about twice what an 8” bowl does

Hollow forms tend to go up by the square.
A 14” diameter Hf takes 4x the time of a 7” diameter form

I do demos of hollow forms an 7-8” diameter with a large opening I can do in about 20 minutes.
From a blank cut round on a bandsaw. The demo time runs about an hour.

A 12” diameter hollow form take a bit over an hour usually.

This is a demo piece turned froma 1/4 log to get the pitcher lip.
I used it to to test some sandcarving View attachment 25432

 

[hockenbery]

I'm terrible. I'm working on a12x12 bowl today and after 5.5 hours, I've still got quiet a bit of hollowing on the inside left to do.

That piece you showed is awesome.

Grey

Be patient, It takes a while to develop skills. People who study those things say it takes 10,000hours to get really good! You can get quite competent after a week long quality class.

Arrowmont and Cambell are great places to take classes. Also there May be mentors in the local clubs.
10” bowls will go quicker.

I started a thread in the tips section on working with green wood. It include videos from a demo in which I turn green bowl for drying and then finish turn a dried bowl. You can see the tools I use and how I work.
http://www.aawforum.org/community/index.php?threads/working-with-green-wood.11626/

 

[Grey Darrah]

Thanks! I'll definitely check it the video and I really appreciate the help.

Grey

Be patient, It takes a while to develop skills. People who study those things say it takes 10,000hours to get really good! You can get quite competent after a week long quality class.

Arrowmont and Cambell are great places to take classes. Also there May be mentors in the local clubs.
10” bowls will go quicker.

I started a thread in the tips section on working with green wood. It include videos from a demo in which it turns green bowl for drying and finish turn a dried bowl. You can see the tools I use and how I work.
http://www.aawforum.org/community/index.php?threads/working-with-green-wood.11626/

 

[john lucas]

Ditto what's being said. More important is to enjoy the process. Speed will come with time but certainly isn't an important factor unless your trying to do production work and make a profitt. What is a proffit. I don't know if I've ever actually achieved that.

 

[George Guadiane]

Thanks for the answers. I didn't think of a long jam chuck...I'm guessing something sort of like a mini baseball bat???

I also wanted the say that this forum is great. Having many interest, I belong to many forums and I'm pleasantly surprised at how friendly and helpful this one is. Forums are always filled with new people asking a lot of the same repetitive questions, making it easy for the responses to become quite snarky.

Thanks to all.

1. Well answered by others
2. I sand to finish with oil. You can even use a drying oil if you ONLY use drying oil
(drying oil over mineral or non drying olive, walnut, etc will probably never dry. The dryers are included to dry the oil they are suspended in) You can then, while the wood is still wet apply as many coats as you like to get the level of gloss that you want. Drying through a small opening slows the process and sanding with any liquid helps keep the wood from drying too quickly while you're working on it.
My answer should probably be a lot longer and more detailed, but I've got things to do. Hopefully someone who works similarly will fill in any blanks that you have.

 

[Grey Darrah]

What are some drying oils (something like tongue or boiled linseen oil?)

1. Well answered by others
2. I sand to finish with oil. You can even use a drying oil if you ONLY use drying oil
(drying oil over mineral or non drying olive, walnut, etc will probably never dry. The dryers are included to dry the oil they are suspended in) You can then, while the wood is still wet apply as many coats as you like to get the level of gloss that you want. Drying through a small opening slows the process and sanding with any liquid helps keep the wood from drying too quickly while you're working on it.
My answer should probably be a lot longer and more detailed, but I've got things to do. Hopefully someone who works similarly will fill in any blanks that you have.

 

[Grey Darrah]

How do some of you deal with pith in an end grain HF? It seems like for most vessels that are bigger than 6" or 8" in diameter, you going to be turning the whole chuck of log, pith included. Right now I've got a really nice 17" wide black cherry trunk. Every piece I've cut off it has a pretty consistent 2" to 3" wide crack right in the center. The top end of the crack gets cut away, but the bottom (tenon) stays. Do you just fill with glue and go on? I could always split the log like for a bowl, but aside from significantly reducing my working diameter, it also leaves an odd wood pattern, with red heartwood on one half and whitish sapwood on the other side.

 

[Mike Johnson]

Grey,

Just like harvesting wood planks from logs when you cut a tree down, you selectively choose the lengths and size of planks that are available. If you have a log that has a split you line up the split so it becomes one side or end of the plank. Turning billets with cracks can lead to accidents when the billet comes apart on the lathe while turning. You need to look at the log and determine what shapes and sizes are available before you start harvesting the billets from the log. Having an inventory of dried wood billets of various shapes and sizes will expand the types of projects you can work on.

 

[hockenbery]

How do some of you deal with pith in an end grain HF? It seems like for most vessels that are bigger than 6" or 8" in diameter, you going to be turning the whole chuck of log, pith included. Right now I've got a really nice 17" wide black cherry trunk. Every piece I've cut off it has a pretty consistent 2" to 3" wide crack right in the center. The top end of the crack gets cut away, but the bottom (tenon) stays. Do you just fill with glue and go on? I could always split the log like for a bowl, but aside from significantly reducing my working diameter, it also leaves an odd wood pattern, with red heartwood on one half and whitish sapwood on the other side.

There was recent thread in leaving the pith in that was pretty extensive.

Most endgrain HF do not include the pith as it will likely crack.
Some folks center the pith. Opening at the top drill out and plug the bottom.
Sapwood -work with the material One side has it one side doesn’t or avoid the sapwood in the blank. Some woods show no sapwood heartwood difference.

I mostly hollow through the face grain. I like the way the wood looks and the sapwood becomes a feature if I wish.

Three boxeledr form from the same tree. One face grain hollowed. Two endgrain hollowed
All are bleached, no pith included, widest from about 10”diameter

 

[Grey Darrah]

There was recent thread in leaving the pith in that was pretty extensive.

Most endgrain HF do not include the pith as it will likely crack.
Some folks center the pith. Opening at the top drill out and plug the bottom.
Sapwood -work with the material One side has it one side doesn’t or avoid the sapwood in the blank. Some woods show no sapwood heartwood difference.

I mostly hollow through the face grain. I like the way the wood looks and the sapwood becomes a feature if I wish.

Three boxeledr form from the same tree. One face grain hollowed. Two endgrain hollowed
All are bleached, no pith included, widest from about 10”diameterView attachment 25489

I just found and read through that "Pith" thread...lots fo good stuff in it.

Beautiful boxelder pieces.

Grey

 

[George Guadiane]

What are some drying oils (something like tongue or boiled linseen oil?)

Those, Mahoney's walnut oil and many others.