Washed out video

[Keith Larrett]

Our club recently purchased a light for the lathe. We have the Laguna lathe and got the Laguna light that mounts permanently on the lathe. The light was the number one requested feature from demonstrators, however, with the addition of the light, the video has deteriorated. The subject matter is washed out. We are trying to compensate by adjusting the exposure manually, but if the exposure is set for the piece on the lathe when you zoom out everything is dark.

We've recently switched from a projector to two large screen TV's. I imagine this problem would be even worse if we were still using the projector.

Any advice on how we can improve the video quality would be appreciated. Camera settings? Light intensity or angle? Some sort of softbox for the light?

It feels like we have taken two steps forward and three steps back.

Thanks

 

[Bill Boehme]

The only solution that I know of would be to increase the lighting so that everything is as bright as the lathe mounted light. One common problem is placing a light very close to the subject. Give the demonstrator a monitor so that they can see what everybody else is seeing. Also, replace the bulb with a lower wattage bulb.

 

[Emiliano Achaval]

There is a very simple solution. Our AAW resident Video expert @AlanZ helped me with my cameras to fix just that problem. Do not use automatic white balance, like I said, very simple. Adjust the white balance manually. Increasing the light as @Bill Boehme suggested wont help. Lets wait for Alan to help us little more. You have not tell us what kind of camera you are using...

 

[john lucas]

The problem is contrast. The camera can't handle the extreme range of very bright to not bright. Our eyes adjust to it quite easily. Used to be I would suggest setting the cameras to manual mode and simply adjusting for the correct exposure for the bright light but you can't do that on many cameras today. So the best option is to simply supply a more even light. You have a couple of options. Your light probably produces a smaller spot that is kind of harsh. The camera tries to average the exposure from the dark to the very bright and probably both lose. If you can bring up the light in the shadow areas the "average" will be higher and the bright areas won't appear so bright. sometimes it can be as simply as adjusting the position of the light so it doesn't produce a hot spot. Back it off or aim it differently and see if that helps. In Video we usually use what we call soft boxes. This produces a nice large lighted area instead of the smaller spot light. That doesn't work well for club situations. I have a small LED light that was really harsh. I built a diffuser for the front by turning a cone and put a piece of frosted milk jug about 3" in diameter in the cone. This made the light a lot less harsh.
So my suggestion is to first try aiming the light different ways to illuminate the subject. Sometimes the light bounces off the turning at what we call an incident angle (think bouncing a pool ball off the rail) The light bounces off the turning right back at the lens so it appears really bright to the camera and the auto exposure adjusts and of course makes everything else dark. By readjusting the light you can sometimes eliminate this and get a better exposure. The second is to bring up the room lights or add a second light so the shadows aren't so dark in relation to the main light. I've done a lot of demos where there is a lot of light right on the turning and the room is dark. Video cameras just can't handle this extreme contrast and something loses, either the bright area washes out, the dark areas get too dark, or both. Another thing that just occured to me and might help.
I hope that helps. When I shoot vidoes of just me with no demo I use one large soft box and then maybe bounce the other lights off the ceiling. That gives an over all even illumination and you don't have those hot spot problems.

 

[AlanZ]

Emiliano,

Bill is correct... but you might not understand why.
What he was saying is that if you put a bright spotlight on the subject, it increases the contrast relative to the rest of the image. So there are two ways to bring the contrast back down to a manageable level. One is to dim the spotlight, so it's not so bright. The other is to raise the level of all the other lighting so that the spotlight isn't so much brighter than the rest of the image.

One nice thing about most modern camera devices is that they generally do well in relatively low light conditions. So my suggestion is to go for flat, mostly even lighting... LED strips, fluorescent tubes, etc. For video, I would rather have good quality lower light levels than poor quality bright lights.

 

[George Stratton]

Bounce Lighting is used quite often in photography. Try pointing the light at a close white wall or projector screen which in turn will light up a large area much more evenly.

 

[Bill Boehme]

Thanks Alan for going into more detail.

The problem for the demonstrator is that he needs enough light to see what he is doing, but the camera sensor can't handle the wide contrast range as John and Alan both said. Obviously, the demonstrator wouldn't be pleased if the brightness of the light that he needs is dimmed. It would help a little if the demonstrator's light were moved back a bit, but the real solution is to increase the lighting in the whole field of view. An important consideration in getting even lighting is to not have the lighting source too close or else you will have the same contrast issue on a larger scale. Multiple light sources placed as far as practical from the scene will give more even lighting.

While white balance should be set correctly it has nothing to do with the contrast issue.

 

[Emiliano Achaval]

Emiliano,

Bill is correct... but you might not understand why.
What he was saying is that if you put a bright spotlight on the subject, it increases the contrast relative to the rest of the image. So there are two ways to bring the contrast back down to a manageable level. One is to dim the spotlight, so it's not so bright. The other is to raise the level of all the other lighting so that the spotlight isn't so much brighter than the rest of the image.

One nice thing about most modern camera devices is that they generally do well in relatively low light conditions. So my suggestion is to go for flat, mostly even lighting... LED strips, fluorescent tubes, etc. For video, I would rather have good quality lower light levels than poor quality bright lights.

I better stick with woodturning advice...

 

[John Torchick]

John Lucas was a professional photographer for many years. The only reason he was a photographer was to feed his woodturning habit. Now that he has retired, he is a full time turner. And a very good woodturner, I might add.

 

[hockenbery]

ur club recently purchased a light for the lathe. We have the Laguna lathe and got the Laguna light that mounts permanently on the lathe. The light was the number one requested feature from demonstrators, however, with the addition of the light, the video has deteriorated. The subject matter is washed out. We are trying to compensate by adjusting the exposure manually, but if the exposure is set for the piece on the lathe when you zoom out everything is dark.

Hi Keith - the camera wash out and washed out screen are the same/similar problem.
If you have a good projector a washed out screen is due to light shining on the screen( usually from one light).
The common answer of dimming the whole room works but repositioning the screen so it is not under a light works even better because the room lights can stay on and image is bright.
What your are seeing on the washed out screen is the light on the screen + the spotlight/floodlight on the screen from one light.
What you see with the lathe light is the room light + the lathe light which is too much for the camera.

I demo lots of places where the projection screens are bright and easy see 80+ feet away.
And a few places where the video is excellent for anyone within 40 feet of the TVs and too small for those seated further away to see any detail or read normal fonts in a PowerPoint.

 

[AlanZ]

I was an advertising/commercial photographer in New York City for many years, mostly doing still life, special effect and editorial illustration photography... but that was in the previous millennium.
You know... back when I had to shovel coal into my computers...

 

[John Torchick]

AlanZ, mu first computer ran with a donkey tied to a pole and turning a wooden wheel.

 

[Bill Boehme]

AlanZ, mu first computer ran with a donkey tied to a pole and turning a wooden wheel.

Hmmmm, so your computer probably had a Coppermine processor.

 

[john lucas]

you notice Alan and I had roughly the same solution for the problem. That's because we have experienced it in our various trials of shooting. the best photographers all have one thing in common. A very good background in the basics. When I participated in a talk on shooting work with Rude Lopez and John Beaver we all commented that it was surprising that we had virtually the same answers for the questions. Not surprising to me. We just answered using our background in the basics. I believe Alan was there also.

 

[AlanZ]

John, folks are going to get suspicious... we apparently all share one brain...

 

[Gerald Lawrence]

We use a screen and like the problem Keith presented get wash out because we have to dim room lights to not get the reflection off the screen. This problem is even worse when using maple or other very light wood in a demo. Now I will have to try some of the suggestions on light placement or bringing up the house lights.

 

[john lucas]

It becomes a problem when you are using projection screens because it's necessary to keep the room dark. All you really need is more light on the subject right around the area that has the hotspot. Some kind of lamp with barn doors so you can aim the light would work pretty well. As long as you can get the light on the person but not on the screen it might work.

 

[hockenbery]

Work lights are a problem in bright lit rooms too.
Here are a couple of screen shots from demo videos that show the light problem with a projection screen in the background. Room lights are full on. Projection screen easy to see because it is bright. Note it is over exposed in the screen shot.

In the first two video screen shots the projection screen in the background is overexposed and the moffit light overexposes where it hits,
the last two are screen shots of a PowerPoint and when the projection screen fills the video frame the camera gets it like close to how the audience sees it. With the room lights on.

 

[Gerald Lawrence]

@john lucas You spoke of LED lights for photo work at the Atlanta symposium. What kind of screw in bulb led would be best for a Moffat light to enhance video? I tried using an auxiliary incandescent Saturday to lighten the area (60W) and could not tell any difference. So now thinking to change the CFL in the Moffat to a more photo friendly bulb.

 

[john lucas]

Gerald I haven't really spent much time working with LED's yet. Mostly it would probably be best to match the color temperature of whatever other lights your using. You can buy LED bulbs in different color temperatures pretty easily. Usually they are listed as something like 5500K or 3200K. Sometimes they just say Daylight or warm light which doesn't tell you much but as long as they are all the same it will work. It's not crucially important for video because our eyes adjust for color pretty well. A 60watt LED would be equivalent to a 100 watt incandescent or close. What you also might try is simply move the light that is too bright further away. It doesn't take much. If it's 16" from the subject and you move it to 22" you reduce the light by a full F stop in photo terms. It will also spread the light which might make it easier to get the other lights too appear brighter and more balanced.

 

[Bernie Hrytzak]

• Energy-efficient replacement for 100W incandescent bulb. 14.5W = 100W
• Soft white light (2700K) Brightness: 1500 lumens

This is for Phillips LED bulbs.

 

[Gerald Lawrence]

Thanks John I thought there might me a color balanced LED by now. Looked at Amazon and it gets really confusing. Will just have to experiment a little.

 

[Bill Boehme]

Thanks John I thought there might me a color balanced LED by now. Looked at Amazon and it gets really confusing. Will just have to experiment a little.

If you're hoping that the color temperature of a light will make a difference in overexposed bright spots, that won't help a bit. Color balancing is making certain that all of your light sources have the same color temperature. While digital is wonderful, the limited dynamic range between pitch black and blown-out highlights presents a significant lighting and exposure challenge.

 

[Gerald Lawrence]

If you're hoping that the color temperature of a light will make a difference in overexposed bright spots, that won't help a bit. Color balancing is making certain that all of your light sources have the same color temperature. While digital is wonderful, the limited dynamic range between pitch black and blown-out highlights presents a significant lighting and exposure challenge.

Thanks Bill that is what I was wondering

 

[Bruce Schoenleber]

... While digital is wonderful, the limited dynamic range between pitch black and blown-out highlights presents a significant lighting and exposure challenge.

The world has gone digital and there is no turning back time. But, you guys who are accomplished photographers, would you still prefer film over digital for everything other than convenience?

 

[john lucas]

I do miss the darkroom. Watching an image come up when you make a print is still magical. I even miss the smell and coming out with brown fingers after a day of printing. Retouching those same prints was always a pain however and digital stopped that. Film also had the same limited dynamic range and you had to use fill in lights the same way we are talking about with video problems. Back to film. the only real reason to use film nowdays is just for the look. The same way photographers used different films or antique processes. Things have changed. when digital first came out people were saying I can shoot all I want and no more film cost. I had a high end 35mm that cost me $700. The same in a digital camera at that time with much lower resolution was $5000. I could by a lot of film for $4300 and get better images. All of that has changed of course. I really miss being under the darkcloth with my large format cameras. You totally involved with creating the image when you under there. Holding a camera at arms length and starting at the tiny screen just isn't the same thing.

 

[Gary Beasley]

I still have my darkroom and large and medium format cameras. Its still a lot of fun though a days shooting might net only a handfull of images with film instead of hundreds with digital. Different tools for different jobs.

 

[Bill Boehme]

I tried developing Ektachrome slides once and it turned out OK, but it was a lot of work and the cost of sending it to a lab was cheap. I always wanted to try printing after watching an uncle do it. However, digital has matured to the point where it has far surpassed film in image quality when comparing them in 35 mm format. The one area where film is still better is in the range of darkest to brightest parts of an exposure without losing detail. With digital you have to expose to make sure that the highlights aren't blown out. I love the digital darkroom (Photoshop) and have been using it for about twenty years for both developing digital photos and also for graphics work. But, like woodturning it is a black hole for money ... actually much more than woodturning.

I have thought about shooting a roll of film, but then I come to my senses. Many years ago I foolishly thought that digital would never surpass film.

 

[john lucas]

I can't even tell you how much ektachrome I processed. Probably did 30 rolls every monday after a football game. 3 or 4 hundred rolls during large week long events. Many many rolls of C41 and back when all press releases were done with B@W sometimes a hundred rolls a week and quite often 500 5x7's for press releases on new students or athletes.

 

[Bill Boehme]

I can't even tell you how much ektachrome I processed. Probably did 30 rolls every monday after a football game. 3 or 4 hundred rolls during large week long events. Many many rolls of C41 and back when all press releases were done with B@W sometimes a hundred rolls a week and quite often 500 5x7's for press releases on new students or athletes.

Just think how many photo labs you put out of business.

 

[john lucas]

We had 2 small photo stores in town that did quite well. We often sent customers to them. The digital age killed them along with all the other stores. The last big photo store in Atlanta just closed so I now I have no where to go other than online.

 

[Ely Walton]

If the goal is to see the turning, you may want to set your camera for spot exposure that will keep whatever is in the center of the screen (i.e., the turning) viewable. Of course, your demonstrator may appear to be in the dark...

Oh yes, to boot my first computer in 1975, I had to key in and execute 12 hexadecimal instructions using four groups of four binary switches each on the front panel. Those 12 hex instructions made it smart enough to read a three-foot paper tape into the ASR-33 teletype console... and that made it smart enough to read a small card deck via a portable reader... and so it went...

Ely

 

[Gary Beasley]

We had 2 small photo stores in town that did quite well. We often sent customers to them. The digital age killed them along with all the other stores. The last big photo store in Atlanta just closed so I now I have no where to go other than online.

At this point Wings Camera is the only brick and mortar store I know in the area I can walk in and buy darkroom supplies and film.

 

[john lucas]

Where is Wings Camera. I'll be driving through Atlanta going to Athens to do a demo on Tuesday. If I'm lucky I'll have time to stop in.

 

[hockenbery]

Oh yes, to boot my first computer in 1975, I had to key in and execute 12 hexadecimal instructions using four groups of four binary switches each on the front panel. Those 12 hex instructions made it smart enough to read a three-foot paper tape into the ASR-33 teletype console... and that made it smart enough to read a small card deck via a portable reader... and so it went.

Brought back memories.
About that same time I got to install a program on a Us Airforce computer in Chickssands England. It was some sort of ruggedized air droppable pdp10 complete with parachute hook. Had to use a short boot strap loader tape which told the computer to load the next tape which was my program. Finding a computer to make the paper tape of my program was fun too. And take multiple copies in case one got torn.

 

[Ely Walton]

Brought back memories.
About that same time I got to install a program on a Us Airforce computer in Chickssands England. It was some sort of ruggedized air droppable pdp10 complete with parachute hook. Had to use a short boot strap loader tape which told the computer to load the next tape which was my program. Finding a computer to make the paper tape of my program was fun too. And take multiple copies in case one got torn.

Yes - great memories indeed! I spent many a night and weekend troubleshooting the DEC PDPs as well as other super-minis... it got a bit dicey having to cut holes in tape or cards with an Xacto knife!... And drum memories that used washing machine motors... After a power failure, it was common practice to hit the top with a two-pound hammer so the dirty slip ring would slide and engage starter windings... And all wire-wrapped circuit boards of course... I could not even see that fine wire today! Making green wood shavings a bit more fun....

Ely

 

[hockenbery]

@Ely Walton
Is that Roy Underhill in your avatar?
Sherry & I met Roy at Williamsburg on a drizzly fall day with no crowds.
The three of us probably talked for about an hour mostly about a timber frame barn he was building and few minutes about turning. A really nice guy.

 

[Ely Walton]

@Ely Walton
Is that Roy Underhill in your avatar?
Sherry & I met Roy at Williamsburg on a drizzly fall day with no crowds.
The three of us probably talked for about an hour mostly about a timber frame barn he was building and few minutes about turning. A really nice guy.

Yes! That is Roy himself! My oldest son and I took a course with him at his school in eastern North Carolina. He is EXACTLY as he is on the Woodwright's Shop -- very real, kind of scattered, goofy sense of humor, but all with a mission to promote traditional woodworking and tools. We cut some dovetails, tenons and mortices by hand... He signed mine and wrote, "Great job." (It still sits on a shelf in my shop!) Perhaps I will be able to take a turning class or seminar with some of you one day. (But for now, that pesky work thing keeps getting in the way until I retire next year! -- And I love the tag line one of you has: "Retired - where every day is Saturday except Sunday." - perfect!)

Ely