• Beware of Counterfeit Woodturning Tools (click here for details)
  • Johnathan Silwones is starting a new AAW chapter, Southern Alleghenies Woodturners, in Johnstown, PA. (click here for details)
  • Congratulations to Paul May for "Checkerboard (ver 3.0)" being selected as Turning of the Week for March 25, 2024 (click here for details)
  • Welcome new registering member. Your username must be your real First and Last name (for example: John Doe). "Screen names" and "handles" are not allowed and your registration will be deleted if you don't use your real name. Also, do not use all caps nor all lower case.

Investing in turning education

Joined
May 28, 2015
Messages
1,554
Likes
178
Location
Bainbridge Island, WA
I'll might get a skewed response here amongst all you serious turners, but how important is it to spend $$ when a great turner/instructor comes to your neighborhood (disregarding going to Symposia, please)? I spent my year's ed fund to go to an all-day demo and an all-day workshop with Glenn Lucas this month, and it was worth every single penny. I was surprised, however, that more people did not attend the demonstration day. (All workshop days were full, I think).

Do clubs, in general, find it a hard climb to bring in well-known (let alone famous) turners and get enough paying customers to make it work (not just because of the $$, but also the work involved)? As a new program coordinator, I want to be progressive but realistic.
 

john lucas

AAW Forum Expert
Joined
Apr 26, 2004
Messages
8,321
Likes
3,576
Location
Cookeville, TN
Our club has been trying to bring in bigger name outside turners in the last few years and have had pretty good success with the all day demos. The Hands on demos that we usually try to connect to the all day's have also been fairly well received but not as good as the all day. don't know if it's the price or if people just don't feel comfortable turning in front of other turners. May be both. We are fortunate in that this club is just a couple of hours from Arrowmont so we try to get instructors coming or going to help them make a little extra dough and to save us some travel money. It's a pretty small club (about 50 or so) so we don't have a lot of cash but can bring in at least one a year.
Of course how can you not learn something from turners like Glen Lucas,Stewart Batty, RAy Key, Richard Raffen, the list goes on. I learn something from virtually every turner. Sometimes it may be how not to do something or how not to teach it but I try to be open and learn something. Most turners have developed some really interesting techniques that you can learn from no matter what their skill level.
 
Joined
Jul 24, 2008
Messages
712
Likes
187
Location
Montfort, Wisconsin
The reason I don't attend the hands on is I can't stand at a lathe that long. Several that I did attend I wasn't the only one quitting early. We sat close by and visited and discussed what we'd learned and watched. The instructor felt guilty about us quitting until we told him it wasn't him, he was great. That's also why I don't attend schools. I don't think I'm alone as a lot of turners are a little long in the tooth. Just a thought.
 
Joined
Jul 26, 2016
Messages
2,326
Likes
1,105
Location
Nebraska
The day you stop learning is usually the same day you can no longer fog a mirror.
Craftsmen that work in different trades will many times approach a problem differently
with novel solutions that challenge us all. When the engineers at work are stumped on
a problem they usually spend a day talking to the different field tradesmen and usually
come up with simple solutions. KISS, Keep It Simple, Stupid
 

john lucas

AAW Forum Expert
Joined
Apr 26, 2004
Messages
8,321
Likes
3,576
Location
Cookeville, TN
Dave that could very well be why some don't attend. I know a lot of people in my classes just can't stand all day and it's not just the older ones. I had a 77 year old lady in one of my classes at John C Campbell who out worked all the men. She litterally worked from 8am to 10pm each day when we had to shut the doors. I had to guys in the same class who were in their 40's who had to sit down about every 2 hours. I had a young guy about 23 in the same class and he and that lady stayed at it until I forced them to leave. I notice at club meetings there are about 5 of us who stand all the time. I just can't sit for long. I get so stiff I can hardly move. My good friend who is also my age said now we know what are parent's meant by being "Stoved Up".
 
Joined
Mar 12, 2016
Messages
74
Likes
33
Location
DFW, TX, USA
One of the reasons that I love woodturning is that it develops skills in a variety of areas and you can continue to learn for a lifetime. There are many approaches to learning, from "just do it" to something more prescriptive and deliberate. At this point, I think that the ideas discussed in Anders Ericsson's "Peak: Secrets from the New Science of Expertise" represent something like a gold standard in learning, which he calls Deliberate Practice. It basically involves continuously working on subjects that are at the edge of our skill level and getting regular feedback. Something like having a highly qualified personal trainer, and working on an expanding set of skills on a daily basis. I'm oversimplifying, of course.

I presume that these clinics are taught by highly qualified trainers, and that they are providing high quality feedback. So they will be providing the kind of experience that is described by Ericsson, at least for the time that they're going on. Unfortunately, they only last a brief time, usually a short number of days. I know it's not really practical, but if we could spread these sessions into shorter sessions over a greater number of days, they would be a lot more effective. As such, I find this kind of intensive learning to be great in the short term, but I don't retain the information so well, because I'm not using it and getting immediate feedback past the time of the clinic. Based on this, as well as the cost, I have chosen not to attend any of these offerings at our club. I don't doubt that these sessions are useful, they just don't represent a compelling trade-off for me at this time.

I do get input from other turners, from books to videos, and watching an occasional demonstration, and some individual queries via my local club, and I try to learn to see and evaluate my own work, in a humble effort to "teach myself". Or perhaps more optimistically, I try very hard to pay attention to the lessons that the wood is providing me. I don't presume that this offers the same quality of instruction and feedback, but it is my effort to deal with the practical challenges of teaching and learning woodturning.
 
Joined
Jan 24, 2010
Messages
3,058
Likes
900
Location
Cleveland, Tennessee
Our chapter has had some great turners who have been most helpful with what to do, what not to do, techniques for turning, tool grinding and shaping, etc. In addition, we have several great turners in the chapter that put on demonstrations. I always learn something. I can't sit or stand for long periods of time- sitting might be the worst. If I did a demo, it would be classified as a comedy routine. :confused:
 
Joined
Apr 10, 2017
Messages
86
Likes
27
Location
Mount Juliet, TN
Training/education is a fascinating subject of course. I've been on both sides in various disciplines. I've found that some people just enjoy taking classes and the people in the class. Some people learn basics and can go on making wonderful items. Some, of course, can take every class available and can not successfully complete a project. Some others, on the other hand, are so smart & talented that no one could teach them anything.
Students that I liked most were those that safely learned basics and then occasionally returned to learn a particular skill or tool. ( my teachings were in electronics, computers, and goldsmithing).
I'm new to turning and am a sponge. One guy in our local club and John Lucas have spent a few hours with me. I can testify that much can be learned from the pro's but, spending time at the lathe (or any other discipline) is mandatory to perfect a skill.
So I say, (FWIW) learn some basics, buy/get cheap wood, turn turn, turn and turn, and then occasionally take a formal class to enhance your skill. "Everyone" can learn something new and grow.

My 2 cents,
Regis
 

hockenbery

Forum MVP
Beta Tester
TOTW Team
Joined
Apr 27, 2004
Messages
8,590
Likes
4,885
Location
Lakeland, Florida
Website
www.hockenberywoodturning.com
Jamie,
Getting an all day demo and hands on is great way to advance both individual skills and the skill base of your club.

Do be aware that very likely you are much more serious about becoming a better turner than many of your club members are or will be. Most every club has members who have no interest in becoming a better turner. They enjoy the meetings, the social aspect the entertainment aspect and whatever level of turning they have achieved suits them. They don't want to learn better techniques.

The clubs here in central Florida benift from the relative closeness of other clubs.
When a club has a workshop or all day dem they give there members a chance to sign up then invite the surrounding clubs' members. Enough people from other clubs would drive 1-3 hours to see a Glen Lucas to help the host club break even.

Al
 
Joined
Feb 6, 2010
Messages
2,959
Likes
1,905
Location
Brandon, MS
Jamie we have had mostly good experience with this type set up for a 2 day, but also have had 2 bad experiences. One we did not get enough participation in the hands on and lost several $$$. Then another on second failure of flight connections we lost $$$ as we paid for flight with no demo resulting and since as Treasurer I did the arrangements and that was the second time I asked to be excluded if we do that again. I do believe there is a place for this type combo just prebook everyone for hands on and demo day will usually work. There are many who feel like Barry and I appreciate his comment and then there are those not confident in their own abilities to do hands on . What we need to do is encourage them that these activities will help them with their turning and as John said learn "how to or how not to" at every demo.
 
Joined
Jul 28, 2005
Messages
390
Likes
124
Location
Alexandria, VA
As a former program guy for our club, good luck.
I enjoyed meeting and working with the demonstrators.
It can be frustrating communicating with some of them. Some are very busy and travel/demo takes a back seat day to day.
Coordinating with other regional clubs was always the goal but due to too many variables it didn't always work out.
Use the experienced turners in your club to generate programs, and save up for the pros. Three short how to demos by local pros can be just as rewarding to members as a full demo ( with fee ) by a pro.
Our meetings on Saturday last from 9am to 2:30pm with lunch for pros or till 12 or so for local demonstrators.
I valued the time spent in workshops, more than the demos. The attendees of the workshops are generally more focused.
I do not envy the demonstrators trying to teach/entertain ( and in some cases provide adult daycare :) ) a room full of old guys.
It brings out the critics, especially when there is a demo fee.
My goal was to try to provide a program with a balance between skill building/basics and showing different techniques ( off set , carving, coloring, hollowing, etc ) to expand turning knowledge in the club.
Also balancing Local talent, Pros, and trying to find up and coming turners without broad name recognition. The latter were my real goal.
Not a unique goal for a good program, but not a goal shared by all members. "Not enough chips flying" was a refrain heard often.
Especially if the demonstrator take "too long" trying to get their motivations/influences/story across to the room. Some demonstrators love powerpoint too much. Some audience members don't.

Enough about that. Drawing the crowd to pay the pro for a reasonable demo fee is harder each year.
It depends on many factors regarding the makeup of your club, and the demonstrator.
Average meeting size, budget, price sensitivity of the members, ability to share travel expenses with other clubs in the area, and changing demographics of the club.
Some demonstrators worked with me to secure dates with travel costs that were reasonable to all.
Some big names were extremely easy to work with to help off set their high fees. Some not so much.
Working with demonstrators who have different levels of business acumen and expectations can provide some challenge to you and your club.
Volunteering always is a crap shoot, when things go right everyone wins, when someone perceives a wrong or does not come through as planned your day can suck pretty fast.
The best you can do it get the program information out to the membership with enough lead time and keep the buzz going if you have workshop slots open. Try to be consistent with policies about workshops and demos and make sure the demonstrators are aware of them.
No one wants surprises that change terms and conditions.
 
Joined
Dec 7, 2012
Messages
272
Likes
115
Location
Albuquerque, NM
Hello, Mark!!

Jamie, I'm the soon-to-be-former-program-planning-chair for our club. We have a relatively smooth tradition of bringing in one professional per year, with a few days of post-demo-hands-on. During one of the club meetings, we will discuss the date when the professional is coming, and get a show of hands (no commitments, just show-of-hands) for hands-on. We then commit to the number of hands-on-sessions to do. This is all in negotiation w/ the board etc. We typically don't charge our members (or guests) for attending the demo; we charge for participating in the hands-on. The club dues, raffles, etc. (and donations from kind members) support the professional's travel & demo day and some of the hands-on.

We've never had problems filling the hands-on-workshops in our club. We've occassionally had to turn people away (in a fair fashion).

At our most recent board meeting, we discussed the diversity of skills of attendees in our hands-on. We have folks ranging from rank beginner to semi-pro attending the hands-on. A project that I'd like to also promote next year (when I become dictator, depending on club interest) is back-to-basics-camp. Refreshers (or new for novices) on workholding, safe practices, controlled cuts, body movement, focusing on the horizon.
 

hockenbery

Forum MVP
Beta Tester
TOTW Team
Joined
Apr 27, 2004
Messages
8,590
Likes
4,885
Location
Lakeland, Florida
Website
www.hockenberywoodturning.com
I am a big believer in 3-5 day classes.
Students tend to learn a10 times as much in a 3 day class as in a 1 day class.

In a five day class - day one Is almost always dedicated to the
Basics - sharpening, riding the bevel, foot placement, body movement...
and the instructor learning about each student.

Then the new stuff with reinforcement..

And quite often in day 4 the magic happens - students begin to explore their own variation and to collaborate with each other.

Whenever I have run five day classes I did two things
1. Set a go/nogo date with the instructor
2. Collected a non refundable deposite ( usually 50%) from each student.

When the go/nogo date arrived we would know if we had enough students to cover the cost or were close enough to take the risk.
If a student had to drop out we would refund their money if their spot was filled. If not they knew we had to pay the instructor whether they came or not.
 
Last edited:
Joined
Jan 24, 2010
Messages
3,058
Likes
900
Location
Cleveland, Tennessee
Good thread but, for me, multi-day classes and the cost for a symposium aren't in the budget. We have demonstrators at our meeting, both members and outside people. I have learned a lot from them and also have a few noted turners set as Favorites so I can watch their videos. Plus, I have been experimenting with various tools and techniques in my shop. I have enough wood to build a small cabin so that isn't a problem.
 
Joined
May 28, 2015
Messages
1,554
Likes
178
Location
Bainbridge Island, WA
Thanks for all your replies. I'm getting the feeling in our area that money is a major consideration. That and how serious people are about their turning. I suspect for the vast majority, turning is an enjoyable hobby but not an all-consuming thing. I've always had a hard time approaching anything in less than an "all-in" fashion, so I have to work hard to see it from a different perspective. The smaller percentage who are real, real serious are either super-talented and teach themselves or spend the $$ to learn from masters who come though (speculating here). There's one club in our area that has a track record for bringing in a Big Name once/year and filling demos and workshops. Not a super-big club either. That may soak up most of the available audience, I dunno.

Getting plunged into this job with only a year in the club, and a newbie to boot, made the first year a bit dicey. I'm meeting more people, getting some networking, and it looks like next year will be a bit easier. Hoping that having the annual symposium in Oregon will help me meet more people from the NW who will be excellent demonstrators and close enough to bring here.
 
Joined
Jan 20, 2006
Messages
2,051
Likes
352
Location
Martinsville, VA
well...after basic gouge cutting & safety lessons I feel that one should pick a series (of form/embellishments) and do it till you get tired of it or you feel you cannot do better...then pick another series...you may not become technically proficient but your body of work will be defined...I struggled with art history....about all I learned of the famous artist is this work is from his "blank" period
 

Bill Boehme

Administrator
Staff member
Beta Tester
TOTW Team
Joined
Jan 27, 2005
Messages
12,884
Likes
5,168
Location
Dalworthington Gardens, TX
Website
pbase.com
Thanks for all your replies. I'm getting the feeling in our area that money is a major consideration. That and how serious people are about their turning. I suspect for the vast majority, turning is an enjoyable hobby but not an all-consuming thing. I've always had a hard time approaching anything in less than an "all-in" fashion, so I have to work hard to see it from a different perspective. The smaller percentage who are real, real serious are either super-talented and teach themselves or spend the $$ to learn from masters who come though (speculating here). There's one club in our area that has a track record for bringing in a Big Name once/year and filling demos and workshops. Not a super-big club either. That may soak up most of the available audience, I dunno.

Getting plunged into this job with only a year in the club, and a newbie to boot, made the first year a bit dicey. I'm meeting more people, getting some networking, and it looks like next year will be a bit easier. Hoping that having the annual symposium in Oregon will help me meet more people from the NW who will be excellent demonstrators and close enough to bring here.

Your observations are exactly the same as mine. Our club has an annual turnover in membership of about twenty percent because some people just don't develop the same passion for turning that the "lifers" who are "all in" have. I was a club member for only four months before I became the newsletter editor and webmaster. In my first year our club received the AAW best website award. When you get heavily involved in a turning club I think that you receive much more in enjoyment than someone who just shows up at meetings but doesn't otherwise participate.
 
Joined
Jan 20, 2006
Messages
2,051
Likes
352
Location
Martinsville, VA
I believe that for you Bill wood turning is extorvant......while some of us are introvert Woodturners...each of us have our own path of wood turning and own learning curve....it's all good....!
 

john lucas

AAW Forum Expert
Joined
Apr 26, 2004
Messages
8,321
Likes
3,576
Location
Cookeville, TN
Jamie I with you on the "All in" aspect of anything I do. When I moved to Atlanta I had to give up pistol shooting because it was too expensive. I bought a 72" recurve bow for $25 at a yard sale and though Archery would be a good cheap hobby. You had reusable ammo and could shoot in your back yard. Long story short in 2 years time I had a state of the art bow with sights, releases, stabilizers. I made my own arrows and bow strings, took up leather work to build my own quiver and some other accessories. I spent more money on Archery than I did on pistols. We used to joke at work If I took up Pea shooting I would probably have a titanium pea shooter and have my peas made in space so they would be perfectly round.
Woodturning was the same way. I couldn't afford to build furniture, made small projects (including hand mirrors) out of scrap wood and then found green woodturning. I thought that would be a good cheap way to go, I drag the tree out of the forest and then cut it up with a box saw and ax. Well 30 years later i have 3 chain saws, a massive bandsaw, a massive lathe, and a mini lathe, a full shop full of tools because I also do lots of glue ups.
It's often hard when working on things for the club to think that others don't feel the same. Most turners in our clubs rarely even turn. For them the club is just a social outlet which can be a problem at times because they want to chat with their friend all the way through the demo. We have local symposiums all around us with 2 to 4 hours drive and yet out of almost 100 people in the various clubs I don't think more than 5 actually go to any of them. We have the Appalachian Center for Crafts less than an hour from all of our members and yet we can't even get the classes to make. Harvey Meyers class was just canceled as well as Sammy woods class. Don't know if Greame Priddles class will make or not. People just aren't spending money on turning education. I desperately want to the do the Greame Priddle class, it's just a weekend but don't know if I can spend the money either.
 
Joined
Aug 14, 2007
Messages
5,435
Likes
2,792
Location
Eugene, OR
I have done a couple of 2 day workshops. They were great. For sure, not every one can afford the full workshops though, kind of like what goes on with the AAW Symposium, which is not in the budget for far too many turners. Day long 'hands on' workshops work fine, and are more affordable. For me, I want to learn a new skill, so I watch a 'big name' turner perform, then learn the skill. Eventually I want to do a demonstration on what I learned. For me, it is fairly simple to see just the demo, and pass on most of the workshops because of my experience level. If it is a topic I really like, then I try to learn it well enough so that I can do a club demo after a bit.

Recent example was Eric Lofstrom, and his turned boxes. All finish cuts on the outside of his box are with a honed skew and a peeling cut rather than a bevel rubbing cut. His use of negative rake scrapers with the burnished burr rather than the grinder burr is very interesting, and one I have been experimenting. I spent about 3 hours making a box. Part of that was grinding new profiles on some old tools. I was able to make a 3 inch diameter box with a lid that when you lift the box by the lid, it takes the bottom about 3 seconds to 'fall' off. Now to do about a hundred of them to perfect the methods. Oh yea, I am having some custom M42HSS scraper blanks made for me by Dave Schweitzer....

robo hippy
 

Emiliano Achaval

Administrator
Staff member
Beta Tester
TOTW Team
Joined
Dec 14, 2015
Messages
3,307
Likes
4,226
Location
Maui, Hawaii
Website
hawaiiankoaturner.com
I'm the club President, and I guess the coordinator for demos... I have a few dedicated turners that are of great help. The rest I wish I could tell what would make them come to more meetings... My wife told me, you have to accept that not everybody is as obsessed with woodturning as I am! lol
 
Back
Top