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anchoring a lathe? cement, or wood?

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Hello,
I am moving soon, will be setting up a new wood shop, in a building previously used for horses. There is a 12' wide cement floor down the center, with 12' wide dirt flooring on either side. I plan on spanning across the barn with wood flooring. I plan on putting the lathe (PM 3520) in the center section. Question: Should I mount the lathe to the cement floor, or to the wood floor? (It is currently on a wood floor, and I get a fair bit of vibration with newly mounted wood. I am hoping the cement is a good idea, that it will help minimize vibration.)
Thanks in advance for sharing your experience/ expertise. Cheers, Rand
 

Donna Banfield

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Hi Randall. My current shop is a 28 x 40 ft barn, that was built specifically for my woodturning. We started with a poured concrete slab. On top of that, we layed 2x4's on end, and layed 1 1/8" tongue and groove plywood over that. Where my lathe (Oneway, 2436 3hp motor with the outboard) was going to sit, we placed 4 x 4's exactly where it would sit, and anchored the lathe through the flooring into those. The 4 x 4's were anchored to the concrete. Maybe overkill, but my lathe doesn't walk.
 
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If you are going to put it on a wood framed floor, then you need extra bracing under the total footprint of the lathe, and preferably one post up under each foot on the lathe. Other wise, directly on the concrete floor. A standard framed floor will bounce. I did residential concrete for 30 years. My new shop will have a concrete slab for the lathe room, and a standard framed floor for the flat work room. This will allow it to be turned into a house some day when I can no longer work in the shop. The concrete floor will be insulated and dead level instead of with a slope like a garage.

robo hippy
 
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If you are going to put it on a wood framed floor, then you need extra bracing under the total footprint of the lathe, and preferably one post up under each foot on the lathe. Other wise, directly on the concrete floor. A standard framed floor will bounce. I did residential concrete for 30 years. My new shop will have a concrete slab for the lathe room, and a standard framed floor for the flat work room. This will allow it to be turned into a house some day when I can no longer work in the shop. The concrete floor will be insulated and dead level instead of with a slope like a garage.

robo hippy

Will you anchor your lathe to the concrete?
 
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Sort of, I level the front then back, but the main difference is I am missing the robust, guess I can talk to the Easter Bunny
 
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There seem to be two sides to anchoring the lathe to the concrete floors. One is a reduction in vibration. The other is because of the rigid anchor, all the vibration goes into the headstock bearings. I just put a bunch of sand bags on mine. I am in favor of not having a rigid mount. New shop will have a concrete slab with hickory floor, so a solid base.

robo hippy
 
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What's the purpose/objective of mounting the lathe to the floor? My lathe sits on concrete garage floor. Never moves. Seems that if your lathe is jumping around, the proper and safe response is to re-balance the piece or turn at low RPM until the piece is balanced.

If you anchor the lathe to the floor (concrete or wood) and the floor is not perfectly level, don't you have to be concerned about applying unnecessary torque forces to the lathe ways when mounting to the floor? - John
 
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Rand,

IMO think it depends on how much anchoring you need.
I do lots of large/heavy unbalanced pieces. So ultimate stability was my goal. Also, I'm 6'3" so wanted to raise the lathe up.

The easy solution was to pour a riser as a base, high enough to raise the lathe. So about 400#'s of concrete. Threaded rod, with nuts and washers on the bottom end, embedded into the poured base. Then lowered the lathe on (used a car jack).

Needless to say, its rock solid. :)
I've tried bolting into the floor joists and that wasn't enough.
Heavy barn beams could work.
 

Bill Boehme

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Sort of, I level the front then back, but the main difference is I am missing the robust, guess I can talk to the Easter Bunny

I think that you're missing the main ingredient for that cake recipe. :D

But, forget about the Easter Bunny ... Mrs. Easter Bunny is the one you should talk to. Without even a hint from me Mrs. B said, "I think that you need to get the Robust American Beauty lathe". I didn't waste much time blazing a trail to the phone.

BTW, casually name dropping the aforementioned lathe or placing the American Woodturner magazine in strategic locations and coincidentally opened to a certain ad page should not be construed as hinting.
 
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here is a 12' wide cement floor down the center
without knowing the thickness of the Concrete you can't use it as an anchor point and know what you are using. A lot of concrete flooring in older substructures and barns is not thick enough to do much with.
 
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There seem to be two sides to anchoring the lathe to the concrete floors. One is a reduction in vibration. The other is because of the rigid anchor, all the vibration goes into the headstock bearings. I just put a bunch of sand bags on mine. I am in favor of not having a rigid mount. New shop will have a concrete slab with hickory floor, so a solid base.

robo hippy
I added sand to the hollow legs of my Robust. I had used the Lyle Jamieson method earlier, then later on decided to lower the bed (The Robust has independently variable legs) and just worked it to be rock steady and vibration free without bolt anchors. If it starts walkin around now, I know that I have to slow it down. I think that is the approach Tim Yoder takes as well.
 

RichColvin

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casually name dropping the aforementioned lathe or placing the American Woodturner magazine in strategic locations and coincidentally opened to a certain ad page should not be construed as hinting.
Didn't I see that in a movie called "A Christmas Story" ??
 

odie

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One thing I have pondered doing is to fill the tube frame of my Beauty with sand. That would work on a Oneway as well.

robo hippy

I wonder if anyone has ever experimented with a shock absorbing gel.......you know, like that which they make auxiliary insoles for shoes.......?

Then again, any vibrations in the lathe itself are "after the fact".....meaning vibrations are generated at the piece being turned, and not anywhere on the lathe. At the source.....that's the point where it would do a turner the most good, if they could control it there. I guess if you can dampen vibrations that are moving through the headstock and further on to the lathe bedways and legs......well, I suppose it would all be good.......but, to dampen/control any vibrations at the source would the the ultimate goal. This is what inventions, such as the Oneway bowl steady, are attempting to eliminate.

ko
 

Bill Boehme

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I wonder if anyone has ever experimented with a shock absorbing gel.......you know, like that which they make auxiliary insoles for shoes.......?

Then again, any vibrations in the lathe itself are "after the fact".....meaning vibrations are generated at the piece being turned, and not anywhere on the lathe. At the source.....that's the point where it would do a turner the most good, if they could control it there. I guess if you can dampen vibrations that are moving through the headstock and further on to the lathe bedways and legs......well, I suppose it would all be good.......but, to dampen/control any vibrations at the source would the the ultimate goal. This is what inventions, such as the Oneway bowl steady, are attempting to eliminate.

ko

There two types of vibrations that we are concerned about, Odie. The one that you are talking about is the wood vibrating as it is being cut ... the vibrations are usually at a frequency that is high enough to be audible. The only way to deal with that type of vibration is at the source. The other vibration that Reed is talking about is the lathe shaking at a low frequency because the wood being turned is out of balance. You can't get a clean cut when the lathe is walking around the shop so the only ways to deal with that are balancing the piece which isn't always possible or anchoring the lathe to a solid foundation. Gel type vibration isolators aren't the solution because they don't stop the lathe from shaking.
 
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One issue to consider about bolting to floor or not is insurance coverage. There might be a difference between residential and commercial coverage but knew of a friends commercial shop that was gutted by fire. First question from the insurance agent was "were the machines bolted to the floor?" If so there was full replacement cost and if not, those items were considered as a consumable at some lesser rate.
 

odie

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There two types of vibrations that we are concerned about, Odie. The one that you are talking about is the wood vibrating as it is being cut ... the vibrations are usually at a frequency that is high enough to be audible. The only way to deal with that type of vibration is at the source. The other vibration that Reed is talking about is the lathe shaking at a low frequency because the wood being turned is out of balance. You can't get a clean cut when the lathe is walking around the shop so the only ways to deal with that are balancing the piece which isn't always possible or anchoring the lathe to a solid foundation. Gel type vibration isolators aren't the solution because they don't stop the lathe from shaking.

I see.....yes, now that you mention it, I do agree with that, Bill......My mind was focused on a single cause of vibration at the moment I posted earlier! :oops:

The only way to deal with an out of balance situation, is to make the lathe immovable. Off hand, I'd say anything like sand isn't going to dampen this kind of kind of vibration......other than what providing extra weight can do. The lead shot idea is probably a better solution than sand......if the lead were heavier for the same amount of volume. Bolting the lathe to the floor (or other means of "anchoring", as you mentioned) would also provide this kind of stability, as well......which is what I've done. I also don't deal with extremely out of round/balance turning, like some other turners do.......but, I do deal with this very thing on a smaller scale.

I remember a time when turners were putting lead shot into the handles of their lathe tools.......maybe they still do. This always seemed like a gimmick idea to me!

ko
 
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I remember a time when turners were putting lead shot into the handles of their lathe tools.......maybe they still do. This always seemed like a gimmick idea to me!


I see on their website that Glaser turning tools are replacing the shot in there handles with a "vibration reducing gel". Not sure that would effect the lathe.
 
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Lead shot is getting hard to source on the secondary markets these days.
The Resource Recovery and Conservation Act (RCRA) lists and monitors a group of eight heavy metals which are commonly referred to as the RCRA 8. The reason being, each of these eight metals is extremely toxic at even small concentrations.
You guessed it lead made it to the list.
 
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Lead shot is getting hard to source on the secondary markets these days.
The Resource Recovery and Conservation Act (RCRA) lists and monitors a group of eight heavy metals which are commonly referred to as the RCRA 8. The reason being, each of these eight metals is extremely toxic at even small concentrations.
You guessed it lead made it to the list.

But, is there someplace we can buy the "Recovered Lead"?
 
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What's the purpose/objective of mounting the lathe to the floor? My lathe sits on concrete garage floor. Never moves. Seems that if your lathe is jumping around, the proper and safe response is to re-balance the piece or turn at low RPM until the piece is balanced.

If you anchor the lathe to the floor (concrete or wood) and the floor is not perfectly level, don't you have to be concerned about applying unnecessary torque forces to the lathe ways when mounting to the floor? - John

Totally agree, John.
 

Bill Boehme

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What's the purpose/objective of mounting the lathe to the floor? My lathe sits on concrete garage floor. Never moves. Seems that if your lathe is jumping around, the proper and safe response is to re-balance the piece or turn at low RPM until the piece is balanced.

If you anchor the lathe to the floor (concrete or wood) and the floor is not perfectly level, don't you have to be concerned about applying unnecessary torque forces to the lathe ways when mounting to the floor? - John

Totally agree, John.

I mostly agree. I always try to statically balance anything that I put on the lathe, but there are times when doing so would require a lot of extra work. Multiaxis and other off center turning are examples where it is more convenient to have the lathe bolted down.

Perfectly flat floors, level or not, are hard to find so shimming would be a good idea if you choose to bolt it down. One solution is to get a Robust American Beauty lathe so that you can independently adjust each of the legs. Mine isn't bolted down, but I might decide to bolt it down one of these days. The thing that keeps me from doing it is that whenever I turn large out of balance pieces I roll the lathe onto the driveway.
 
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Perfectly flat floors, level or not, are hard to find so shimming would be a good idea if you choose to bolt it down. One solution is to get a Robust American Beauty lathe so that you can independently adjust each of the legs. Mine isn't bolted down, but I might decide to bolt it down one of these days. The thing that keeps me from doing it is that whenever I turn large out of balance pieces I roll the lathe onto the driveway.

American Beauty is wonderful but even my 19-year old Oneway 2036 came with adjustable feet and four 1/2" steel plates that the adjustable feet sit on. Again as John points out, if it is out of balance because of off-center turning I just slow it down. Probably no one does worse off-center turning than Derek Weidman. When he demonstrates, he doesn't have the luxury of requesting a bolted down lathe.
 

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Like Andy my 19.5 year old Oneway has leveling screws. My floor is not level so if the lathe ever moves it will vibrate.

I had a really unbalanced 15" NE crotch on the lathe last week.
Got it going way too fast for a little bit too long guessing wrong that it might smooth out with more speed. So it moved and was vibrating on relatively low speed with the unbalanced pieces.

So with a bit of trial and error I adjust each leveler a bit with the lathe running an vibrating just a little to bring it back to level.
I adjust each foot leveler to minimum vibration and increase the speed a little and move to the next foot. Then check for vibration at higher speeds that I will likely turn.
I might repeat the seaquence if I think it is vibrating too much.
The oneway system has basically a large set screw with locking nut on each foot.
put an Allen wrench in it an turn left, turn with find the least vibration spot.
 
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It might be a proverbial old wives tale but here it is: anchoring to concrete will minimize vibration and allow you to turn at higher speeds. However, the lathe-to-concrete joint can weaken over time, depending on how much you turn out of balance pieces and how out of balance they are. A failure can be sudden and catastrophic. Probably not an issue for most spindle and bowl efforts but, if you do larger hollow-forms, something to consider.
I have my Oneway on a 2x8 build-up at the ends and 2x10 build-up under the headstock. And for two purposes: when I hollow, I can stand flat-footed on the floor with a straight back and work the tool against a pivot pin at the opening - the tool rest is inside complete with multiple LED bulbs - I can see what I'm doing and turn just a few inches off the toolrest.
While I like having a wide footprint, I don't tighten the lag-bolts. If a 300-lb log is not balanced, I'll just go slow.

Oneway 2424 - 4650-002.JPG
 
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My large lathe has the stand bolted to the concrete floor, or said in another way, I have a heavy piece of concrete hung under the lathe stand, the lathe itself is levelled and bolted to the stand (10 “ I beam on 12” high pressure pipe).
The worst piece did actually flex the concrete but the lathe has never moved or has any bad effects had on it because of the way I have mounted it.
 
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With my lowly Jet 1236 (old blue version) a bag or two of stove pellets on the shelf does most of what's needed. Lead shot would be nice if I could lift it. Gotta say, though, I'm real gun-shy about bolting a lathe down unless I'm certain that the fastening points are equal to a level surface. Spent weeks trying to track down a problem with the smaller Comet midi-lathe, and it turned out it had twisted from being bolted to a not-square stand. According to one person I talked with, this can happen to even the Big Bad Boys. Is that correct? At least it un-twisted when placed comfortably.
 

Bill Boehme

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With my lowly Jet 1236 (old blue version) a bag or two of stove pellets on the shelf does most of what's needed. Lead shot would be nice if I could lift it. Gotta say, though, I'm real gun-shy about bolting a lathe down unless I'm certain that the fastening points are equal to a level surface. Spent weeks trying to track down a problem with the smaller Comet midi-lathe, and it turned out it has twisted from being bolted to a not-square stand. According to one person I talked with, this can happen to even the Big Bad Boys. Is that correct? At least it un-twisted when placed comfortably.

Having a flat surface is a lot more important than having a level surface. Having both would be icing on the cake, but not being perfectly level would matter only if you have a floor that has an annoying incline that might lead to bad posture while turning. It's not too uncommon for a garage floor to have a very slight incline towards the entrance. It's generally not enough to be noticed. A floor that isn't flat can cause the frame of a lathe to twist when bolted down if all four feet aren't in solid contact. It's easy to shim the one foot that isn't touching.
 
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