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Black shavings!

odie

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Keeping the tools sharp is what's necessary for a clean cut......

The last time I made a bowl from Gabon ebony, it only lasted about a week after I listed it, before someone bought it. Seems as though there will be no problem selling more. I purchased two more pieces recently at a very exorbitant price......two pieces 6x6x2 were $200! It is available only very rarely in any size large enough to make a bowl from.....so, I figured I better get it fast, while it's available.

I know this is a popular species for other turners......mostly for spindle work making knobs. Now, considering the following, I'm wondering just how ethical it is to even be using this wood at all:
Sustainability: This wood species is in CITES Appendix II (for Diospyros species from Madagascar), and is on the IUCN Red List. It is listed as endangered due to a population reduction of over 50% in the past three generations, caused by exploitation.

http://www.wood-database.com/gaboon-ebony/

I roughed one of the two blocks on Friday, and it will not be finish turned until late this year, because the drying process is very slow for this dense wood......about 22%MC, shown here, plus the one I sold last year.
IMG_2613.JPG 1341 gabon ebony (4).JPG 1341 gabon ebony (2).JPG
The beauty of this wood is in a class by itself.......just outstanding! :D

What say you? Do you use Gabon ebony, and does this constitute an unethical practice for us woodturners? This wood may very well be poached......but, how can you tell if it's been harvested ethically?......if that's possible. From my standpoint......all trees do have a lifespan, and thus can be harvested with sustainability in mind.....so to some degree, it's not entirely unethical to be using it in all circumstances. Regardless, there is the realization that humanity isn't always ethical, and left to it's own good intentions, can't be relied upon to prevent greed from being a contributor to the availability of any wood species that can be over-exploited.

ko
 
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Do you use Gabon ebony, and does this constitute an unethical practice for us woodturners? \
This wood may very well be poached......but, how can you tell if it's been harvested ethically?
ko

Odie,

A few years ago I was given an entire log of lignum vitae. It had been lying under a porch for 30 years and the home owner was moving.
BTW a 6' log of LV is bloody heavy...

So while its providence was unknown, I'm comfortable that I am not contributing to deforestation of a rare species.
But if a new piece was offered to me, for commercial purposes, I personally would not have that same feeling and would decline.

I think many of these questions come down to personal choice.
(where not governed by law)

Like many others, I've used only wood that has been cut down for other purposes. And in Southern Ontario, that generally means its not rare.
I have yet to cut down a tree specifically just to turn it. (admittedly...I have the opposite problem.... of oversupply)

:)
 
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Save the shavings and put them in a blender for filling holes if you even do that.... I do have reservations about using exotics, and if I was a long term investor, I would be doing a lot of tree planting. That is the thing about wood, it is renewable and sustainable if we make even the most minimal efforts...

Some years back, some one on another forum had a friend who got a container of ebony, not sure what species. I picked up a piece that appeared to be about a 1/4 log section about 5 feet long and 6 inch diameter. Haven't turned anything out of it, but about half went to guitar fret boards....

robo hippy
 
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nd does this constitute an unethical practice for us

About that, I'll say this:
I've looked at the furniture products being produced for the trade in Russian and Chinese and other markets. There is an astonishing (I mean mind boggling) abundance of wood species in those markets that we deny ourselves.
So my thinking is that I don't understand why I should deny myself when I'd be the only one doing so?
 
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I sold flooring for a while. The oak we sold was from Siberia where I was told there are millions of acres of oak plus other species that aren't in my memory. Oak was the biggie for us.
odie, that is a beautiful bowl!
 
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So my thinking is that I don't understand why I should deny myself when I'd be the only one doing so?

Ahhh, the classic “everyone else is doing it” justification. Why stand on the bridge when everyone else is jumping off?

I think long and hard about using most tropical woods. There are certainly a few pieces of mine that I felt demanded these rare and expensive materials but, overall, I don’t make run of the mill utilitarian pieces from the stuff. Choosing an exotic is only done to fulfill a plan where no other wood will work to the same effect.
 

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About that, I'll say this:
I've looked at the furniture products being produced for the trade in Russian and Chinese and other markets. There is an astonishing (I mean mind boggling) abundance of wood species in those markets that we deny ourselves.
So my thinking is that I don't understand why I should deny myself when I'd be the only one doing so?

I didn't look it up on the wood database until after I'd already made the purchase of these two bowl blanks.....and, it was then that I had some misgivings about my having purchased them. I'm going to follow through with these two bowls, and complete them. They are so rare in any size large enough to make bowls, that I'll have some amount of apprehension for making further purchases.....that is, if anything large enough becomes available in the future. Regardless, I do feel woodturners will not abstain from using it......continuing to make Gabon Ebony a very desirable wood, whether or not it is considered an "endangered" species.

Raul......given your reasoning, the wood will be harvested and used, regardless of who has concerns about it's sustainability. It would be a good thing if certain governments did regulate the harvesting of endangered woods, and ultimately protected the crop from being depleted by aggressive enforcement. (Maybe it already is regulated.....?) Gabon Ebony trees are a living thing, and can be harvested at a rate that is sustainable.....and, with good management policies, even manage to increase the supply. I do fear this particular species will eventually fall victim to mankind's greed.....mainly because it is so beautiful!

ko
 

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About that, I'll say this:
I've looked at the furniture products being produced for the trade in Russian and Chinese and other markets. There is an astonishing (I mean mind boggling) abundance of wood species in those markets that we deny ourselves.
So my thinking is that I don't understand why I should deny myself when I'd be the only one doing so?
Got to disagree in a big way.

Just because some other guy pokes his eye out with a stick is not a good reason for poking your own eye out with a stick.
Doing harm to the environment does harm to the environment. Most of the harmful things are additive. At the end of the day if you don't harm the environment and the other guy does it is less harmed than it would be if you both harm it.
 
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Got to disagree in a big way.

Just because some other guy pokes his eye out with a stick is not a good reason for poking your own eye out with a stick.
Doing harm to the environment does harm to the environment. Most of the harmful things are additive. At the end of the day if you don't harm the environment and the other guy does it is less harmed than it would be if you both harm it.

Very well said.
Just because "somebody else" is screwing things up, doesn't mean I have license to screw things up.

As for sustainable policies....well...I've heard for year years about how Canada's logging activities are sustainable.
And I've cycled through clear cut areas - that look like a war zone.
Our logging industry has decline dramatically because those polices were not sustainable.
And our forests have declined. Even for fast growing trees.

I'll have the temerity to suggest that such polices in Africa will be worse than here. Especially for slow growing species.
 

odie

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At the end of the day if you don't harm the environment and the other guy does it is less harmed than it would be if you both harm it.

Well, not necessarily so in this case, Al........o_O

Here's why Raul is right (in a general sense).......There is only a certain amount of Gabon Ebony wood that is, or will be available.....and that amount will be sold, and used, no matter what our own "feelings" about using it are. If one's own conscience does not allow us to use this wood, it will make no difference whatsoever to the supply.

The only things that will help the problems of not having a sustainable crop.....is public awareness, AND governments becoming more involved in environmentally regulating the supply. (Not just words, but aggressive enforcement.)

I remember back in the 70's and 80's, when exotic woods were dirt cheap, and the battle cry was targeting the unregulated cutting down of the "rain forest" with no regard to sustainability. There are two sides to the issue of a sustained crop.......those who want to use the raw materials, and those who feel completely cutting off the supply is the only solution to the problem. All over this planet, since that time, we've seen increased governmental regulations about preserving wood availability, through environmental awareness, and regulation of the supply. Now, I suppose the success of that "awareness" could be argued as it relates to a global scale.......but, we've seen a great increase of forest management efforts in many places throughout the world.....and, especially in the south and central Americas. Even though efforts to control the supply are on the rise, this still doesn't mean poaching and general dishonesty in the legal distribution will not occur.....for this, my only suggestion is to make the consequences of taking the risk, more of a concern than the motive for taking the risk.

ko
 
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Odie, I salute you for looking into the implications of your purchase.

Having spent some time in South America, I've seen guys coming out of the forest with chainsaws, just trying to put food on the table. I can't blame these fellows at all, even though what they're doing is not in their best interest long term. The real criminals aren't the guys poaching wood, but the middle men buying the wood. If we don't buy the wood, we don't create a market.

On the other end of the spectrum, searching out truly sustainable forestry is actually better than not participating at all...because it becomes part of the solution. It takes some homework, but many tropicals can be bought responsibly. Of course you need to be careful.

This is a part of the reason I starting turning seriously. I turn woods that are often several hundreds of years old that I harvest myself from trees that have died natural deaths and otherwise would be compost. The forest can always use more dirt of course, but on the other hand, I'm making something valuable from the forest in an ethical way. To my eye, the forest stays healthy, and there's a small economic reason to keep it there. I go through the process to get US Forest Service permits for commercial use, and it's well received by the agency and gets some good press. Often we protect what is of economic importance.

Things to think about! That's about as close as I hope to ever get to politics in this forum. Thanks for the opportunity to discuss this.
 
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If only wood turning blanks grew on trees our problems would be solved. :) The trees will still be around
long after man has done himself in, the planet usually does a pretty good job of ridding itself of pests on a
regular basis.
 
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Wood dilemma, huh?

How about mine? I have a couple 5 gallon pails of small cutoffs of elephant ivory.

The circumstance is 20 years ago we had a job to CNC turn hundreds of small ebony display stand bases. I never gave much thought to what they were for. I assumed jewelry since we did lots of high end retail store fixture display stands.

Come to find out the lady I was dealing with was the daughter of a major ivory importer back in the day when it was legal. She had a small factory, operating under the radar, manufacturing ivory trinkets sold in tourist resorts.

Even though this ivory is legal I don't want to use it. So what do I do with it?
 

odie

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Wood dilemma, huh?

How about mine? I have a couple 5 gallon pails of small cutoffs of elephant ivory.

The circumstance is 20 years ago we had a job to CNC turn hundreds of small ebony display stand bases. I never gave much thought to what they were for. I assumed jewelry since we did lots of high end retail store fixture display stands.

Come to find out the lady I was dealing with was the daughter of a major ivory importer back in the day when it was legal. She had a small factory, operating under the radar, manufacturing ivory trinkets sold in tourist resorts.

Even though this ivory is legal I don't want to use it. So what do I do with it?

As you say, the elephant ivory was harvested legally......I'd think about looking up some high end custom handgun grip makers, and see if there is any interest. Maybe some fine jewelry makers might be interested, too.

It would be a shame to see such rare and beautiful materials wasted.

edit: Bill may have a point......might check on the legal issues here, too........

ko
 

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The real criminals aren't the guys poaching wood, but the middle men buying the wood. If we don't buy the wood, we don't create a market.

To carry that one step further, if it weren't for the end user market, the middlemen never would have come out of the woodwork. OK, so it's a bad pun, but we shouldn't succumb to the argument that the wood would just go to waste if we don't "rescue" it or that we're just helping some poor peasant feed his family. We all know who we're helping ... the middleman.

Some parts of the world have already ruined their fragile ecosystems and as a result altered their local climate. The large island of Madagascar used to be mostly a lush tropical rain forest. Now, it's mostly a wasteland and with an even more desperate population with its once bountiful natural resource gone for good since the soil is too poor to grow anything. Large areas of the Amazon rain forest appear to be rapidly on a collision course with the same fate.
 

odie

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To carry that one step further, if it weren't for the end user market, the middlemen never would have come out of the woodwork. OK, so it's a bad pun, but we shouldn't succumb to the argument that the wood would just go to waste if we don't "rescue" it or that we're just helping some poor peasant feed his family. We all know who we're helping ... the middleman.
.

In the end, the solution isn't going to be as simplistic as public awareness, to a theoretical degree that it will regulate the supply by default. This is idealistic and not capable of taking into consideration that which drives the market. The market will not be bent into submission by social correctness. The realistic solution will not be a total denial of the supply, but a systematic regulation of the supply, with the objective of achieving a sustainable resource. As previously stated, anything that is a "living" source of any supply, is also a sustainable resource.

Yes, public awareness needs to be a part of any attempt at regulation......but, lawful management of the source needs to be an equal partner in that. Just because some areas of the world have been raped by greed, doesn't mean a total ban on any sustainable resource is the solution. Yes, it is complicated......but, what is needed is intelligent management of the resource, and not knee jerk solutions.
 
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I hear ya. But it's not merely somebody else. It's nearly everybody else.
My point wasn't go and squander. It was more that guilt about any of this is a waste of emotion, it's pointless. I work almost entirely with local materials but I'd feel not a twinge if someone dropped a truckload of exotics on my lap. I'd be happy about it.
 
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Wood dilemma, huh?

How about mine? I have a couple 5 gallon pails of small cutoffs of elephant ivory.

The circumstance is 20 years ago we had a job to CNC turn hundreds of small ebony display stand bases. I never gave much thought to what they were for. I assumed jewelry since we did lots of high end retail store fixture display stands.

Come to find out the lady I was dealing with was the daughter of a major ivory importer back in the day when it was legal. She had a small factory, operating under the radar, manufacturing ivory trinkets sold in tourist resorts.

Even though this ivory is legal I don't want to use it. So what do I do with it?

Here is a website where you may find answers
https://www.fws.gov/international/travel-and-trade/ivory-ban-questions-and-answers.html

Yah the Fed says you can sell it. even across state lines given certain specifics. But the sticky part is that you may end up in the ugly position of having to document how you came across it. And THAT my friend is where the Devil will be lurking because prosecutors and enforcement won't find a tale about a lady who bought it during an age of innocence very compelling, you'll need paperwork.
 
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Odie,
The CITES listing says "Madagascar" and Gaboon ebony is reportedly from WEST Africa. Something is incorrect in the Wood Database listing. That being said and recognizing that there are many potential qualifiers, I agree with those who have expressed reservations about using endangered wood. Raul, do you really want to emulate the ethics of Russia and China, two of the most egregiously self-centered and exploitive countries?
 
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Raul, do you really want to emulate the ethics of Russia and China, two of the most egregiously self-centered and exploitive countries

Well I look at it like this:
There's only so much and all the neighborhood kids are running off with it. I Mean there's little Juli who says she won't, but her brother is hauling off little red wagon loads and soon it'll be gone.
So I'm snagging some while it's there.
Ya see; the Russian Indian and Chinese posture renders any self denial on my part pointless. I become a nullity in a sea of takers; the one man who believes that in a gun fight, you should stand out in the open.
 

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Here is a website where you may find answers
https://www.fws.gov/international/travel-and-trade/ivory-ban-questions-and-answers.html

Yah the Fed says you can sell it. even across state lines given certain specifics. But the sticky part is that you may end up in the ugly position of having to document how you came across it. And THAT my friend is where the Devil will be lurking because prosecutors and enforcement won't find a tale about a lady who bought it during an age of innocence very compelling, you'll need paperwork.

Trying to document the provenance might be difficult unless there are records existing from the previous owner. If I owned raw ivory I think that I would try to see if I could somehow get it documented so that it could be used. Otherwise, it would seem more like a liability that could create problems down the road.

The September 2015 issue of National Geographic focused on the illegal ivory trade. They managed to track the trade route using fake ivory tusks outfitted with GPS transmitters and even interviewed smugglers. During 2010 to 2012 there were 100,000 African elephants killed for their ivory tusks and no indication of it slowing down. I don't recall the exact prediction, but I think it was within a decade or so that they will be extinct or down to an unsustainable number.
 

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Odie,
The CITES listing says "Madagascar" and Gaboon ebony is reportedly from WEST Africa. Something is incorrect in the Wood Database listing. That being said and recognizing that there are many potential qualifiers, I agree with those who have expressed reservations about using endangered wood. Raul, do you really want to emulate the ethics of Russia and China, two of the most egregiously self-centered and exploitive countries?

Some of the information in the Wood Database website doesn't always seem to be reviewed for accuracy. Maybe it's somewhat like a wiki that relies on community input. I noticed that they referred to Gabon Ebony as "Gaboon" Ebony possibly confusing the spelling with Cameroon which is also a source. I have a large piece of Macassar Ebony that I bought at least ten years ago at the local Rockler's store which were incorrectly labeled as Madagascar Ebony. As far as I have been able to determine, there is no such thing as Madagascar Ebony.
 

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Well I look at it like this:
There's only so much and all the neighborhood kids are running off with it. I Mean there's little Juli who says she won't, but her brother is hauling off little red wagon loads and soon it'll be gone.
So I'm snagging some while it's there.
Ya see; the Russian Indian and Chinese posture renders any self denial on my part pointless. I become a nullity in a sea of takers; the one man who believes that in a gun fight, you should stand out in the open.
All depends on what your goal is. It's a common way to justify behavior that is bad for the environment.

Consider the atmosphere as a bathtub. When it gets full of contaminants we all suffer a degraded quality of life and when it overflows we all die. Two taps are running wide open filling the tub with contaminants. We control one tap the other guy controls the other tap.
.
Argument 1 says: if I turn off my tap we will all live longer and the other guy has more time to turn his off before we all die.

Argument 2 says : it doesn't do any good for me to turnoff my tap while the other is guy running his open.

Argument 2 is totally false no matter how popular it is with lots of people. 2 open taps always make things worse faster than one open tap.
 
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Bill Boehme

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Politics and ethics are two separate subjects. So, you're wondering about the responsible use of epoxy to insure its sustainability as future demand exponentially increases? I think that we need a catalyst to strongly bind us together on this sticky issue ... Something that "resin-ates" with woodturners.
 
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Illegal ivory is sold at auction to raise money for more game enforcement. I recall that there has to be documentation or a sort of paper trail to show it was bought legally. Anyone else have anything to add? Or subtract?
 
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Some of the information in the Wood Database website doesn't always seem to be reviewed for accuracy. Maybe it's somewhat like a wiki that relies on community input. I noticed that they referred to Gabon Ebony as "Gaboon" Ebony possibly confusing the spelling with Cameroon which is also a source. I have a large piece of Macassar Ebony that I bought at least ten years ago at the local Rockler's store which were incorrectly labeled as Madagascar Ebony. As far as I have been able to determine, there is no such thing as Madagascar Ebony.
It's "Macassar," not "Madagascar."
 
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Joe, what a waste! Thanks for the link. But, destroying it, I guess, makes the market non-existent. If the confiscated ivory were sold, then the illegal market would also exist to a greater degree than it does now. Peter Hathaway Capstick deals with the ivory trade and the elephant population issue in his book, Death in the Long Grass. Excellent book from the perspective of a professional hunting guide. Brings out a lot of things that most people aren't aware of in this world.
 

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Supply and demand often overwhelm scientific principles of biodiversity being in the best interest of mankind.

We are evolving. In the early part of the 1900's a scientific expedition found what they believed to be themlast four of a species of Galapagos tortoise. Acting in accordance with current science of their time, they killed them and preserved the specimens for study by future generation.

Market hunting and the subsistence hunting( especially during the depression) made many species extinct locally in our own country.
Took 40-60 years for the whitetail deer populations to rebound.
 
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"Acting in accordance with current science, they killed them and preserved the specimens for study by future generation."
Oooops! Someone goofed.
 
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I think there was a place in Chattanooga, TN that got in hot water over some wood they were using.
 
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