Paste grits

[Jon Murphy]

I just saw a video by Carl Jacobson on pierced wood boxes and in it he tries a product called Yorkshire grit as a final "sanding". I decided to look it up on the web, I found the description bore a resemblance to the EEE-Ultra Shine I've used for years when doing pens. The EEE-US is sold by Penn State Industries in the US, in conjunction with another Australian product (Shellawax Cream).

PSI, like some other vendors, is oriented toward "project turners" - the EEE-US is sold specifically for pens and such. I don't fault them, that is their market, and for those who don't know PSI they are a great source for low priced tools of decent steel - I use them for tools I know I'll be continually re-shaping for specific purposes, that way I don't cry as I regrind them and lose steel <g>.

Carl's video made me take another look at the paste grits. In his video he uses it as a final sand, although it also imparts a shine tone to the wood due to the paste - his overlay finish in the video is a beeswax paste. Conveniently I happened to be at the point of final sanding of the innards of a small semi-enclosed bowl, so I tried my EEE-US on it. Looks good. Feels good. And with a beeswax paste (2 lb mix with mineral oil, home made) it might make for a good finish.

OK, I've rambled on with the background, let me address the issue. Yorkshire grit is described on their web site as a mineral oil and beeswax and un-named grit (which wears down as it is used). EEE-Ultra Shine is described as a paste that contains Tivoli grit (which wears down as you use it). Both say to sand to about 240, or high 300s, then apply a finish (for the PSI ad the finish is the Shellawax). The Yorkshire detailed descriptions also suggest a finish before use on some surfaces.

Wow, it is getting confusing. The one thing I know is that I'd like to experiment with this a bit, the other thing I know is that I don't have the time or money to stock both and test them in many ways.

One major difference is that the Yorkshire comes from England (and Yorkshire Grit is the title of a book on the toughness of the Yorkshireman), and EEE- Ultra Shine comes from the Aussies. In both cases we have single US suppliers (PSI for EEE and Walnut for Yorkshire).

Cost is another question. The EEE comes in a tub of 250 ml. at about $25, the Yorkshire in a tub of 227 g. (if my memory is correct) for about $22. Typical of the Aussies and Brits, they speak a different language <g>. And for any who call me chauvinist, I'm the senior US citizen in my family, the older members are spread between England and Australia. If I knew the density of the pastes I could equate the ml.to the grams, but the tub in Carl's hand looked about half the size of the EEE tub I have.

Pardon the ramble, I confess I'm having a bit of fun. But there is a real question. Have any of you had experience with one or the other of these paste grits? Have any of you tried a comparison? I'm tempted to buy a small tub of the Yorkshire (and it does look a lot smaller than the EEE) From the little I can see from Carl's video the Yorkshire looks to be a harder paste than the EEE. For comparison, I make two beeswax pastes - a 2 lb mix and a 4 lb mix - for different purposes. The EEE is like the 2 lb in consistency, the Yorkshire on Carl's cloth looks more like the 4 lb.

Enough, enjoy,

Best, Jon

 

[Charlie Knighton]

Sounds like products a crow would like

 

[Mike Johnson]

I like to make my own finishes and spent a couple a hours researching these products several years ago.
There are different grades of "grit" available and a person could easily mix up a polishing compound if desired.
You can get as good a finish taking your item to the buffing wheels and applying the different compounds and
polishing your item that way. The paste grits provide a quick and easy way while your item is mounted on your lathe to get a nice polished finish.

 

[Jack Brown]

What is a 2 lb. mix and a 4 lb. mix?

 

[Raul McCai]

I believe the EEe products is pumice. And the Tripoli product is Rottenstons. I was introduced to it back in the 1970s when I took up lutiher work. I was in all the literature but no one I ever met used it.

Pumice is a fine product I don't prefer was abrasives because I do'nt think you can ever really get rid if them. They will work in an always be part of the work.
If you want to skip all the cost just buy pumice and rottenstone not in a was suspension and work it into a formula yourself with some paste wax and BLO or MO.
Grizzly sells a huge can of just pumice stone
Here's a short and sweet write up on both
http://www.leevalley.com/us/shopping/Instructions.aspx?p=41066

 

[Hy Tran]

Volume, weight:

Mineral oil has specific gravity a bit less than 1 (or if you prefer density, call it 0.85 grams/ml). Beeswax is about 0.95 grams/ml; tripoli powder's density varies depending on the innate porosity, but I would guesstimate 1.5 to 2.5 grams/ml.

To one decimal place of accuracy, you can estimate the volume of a 227 gram container of yorkshire grit to be the same as the volume of a 250 ml container of EEE.

That said, your "paste grit" title sounded like a recipe; add cheese & shrimp, and yorkshire grit sounded like yorkshire pudding made with corn grits rather than flour...

Automotive detailing compounds and household polishing compounds (used for granite, silestone, corian countertops) may be items you already have in your household... I went the other way: I use my "hut plastic pen polish" routinely to clean our stove's glass cooktop surface.

 

[Mike Johnson]

Buy s small box of Rainbow Pumice Powder and Rainbow Rottenstone Powder and add it
to standard paste wax and you have a life time supply of easy to use wood finish polishes.
E-Bay and Amazon have plenty of listings for various grades.
Start with the Pumice and finish with the Rottenstone/Tripoli.

 

[Mike Peace]

You might also check out a similar US made product available from Craft Supply https://www.woodturnerscatalog.com/...-FREEE-Woodturners-Polishing-Wax?term=dr+kirk
I have not been using long enough to really make a comparison with EEE US which I have used for years. Dr Kirks Scratchfree EEE is supposed to be a more environmentally friendly product due to the solvent used.

 

[Jon Murphy]

What is a 2 lb. mix and a 4 lb. mix?

 

[Jon Murphy]

What is a 2 lb. mix and a 4 lb. mix?

I should have said "cut" rather than "mix", but assuming your question is real and not picking on my vocabulary <g> I'll answer. Whenever making a mixture of a soluble solid and a liquid you need to know the proportions in order to get the mixture you want. A cook making a sauce may use tablespoons per cup, but the artisans of old - who might be painting a house - used pounds per gallon. The more pounds of the solid per gallon the thicker the mixture.

We, of course, don't mix our finishes in gallon amounts - but using the same proportions is easy. A gallon is 128 fluid ounces, a pound is 16 ounces. Scale them down to the amount you want. I use 250 ml. "Mason jars", small wide mouthed pots that are quite cheap at Michaels Craft Supplies stores, for my pastes. A half pint (8 fl.oz.) of solvent fits nicely with plenty of room for the additional volume of the beeswax. I can make the mix in the jar. A 2 lb cut/mix is 2 oz of beeswax to 8 fl. oz. of solvent. A 4 lb cut/mix is 4 oz. of beeswax to the 8 fl. oz. Do the math - 8 fl. oz. is 1/16 of a gallon, 2 oz. is 1/16 of 2 pounds (32 oz., at 160 oz. per lb.) - hence a 2 lb. cut. Sounds complicated, but it is a lot easier than using percentages as the total volume changes once the ingredients are mixed.

A 2 lb. cut has a consistency similar to your lady's face cream, a 4 lb. cut more like furniture wax. The softer paste will go deeper into the wood, the harder more a surface coat. Wax, as a finish, is a bit of a misnomer. I don't think I could put a finish on anything by rubbing one of those solid blocks of beeswax on one of my pieces.

 

[Jon Murphy]

My thanks to all. Note that I've added an Avatar, but the angle is a bit off - have to work on that. I became a fan of David E's hollow forms some years back - the coin in the middle is a US penny.

Thanks Hy for the lesson on the specific gravities of the ingredients, that is a help. BTW, specific gravity/density, same old thing here on earth, but a bit of a problem in space <g>. Also you mention Yorkshire pudding - my English mother was an expert. She was not a great cook but her Yorkshire pudding was the best. I knew she was fading when she made one at age 87 and it was flat, she left us at 88 (in 1990).

You all have just saved me some money and given me a project. I agree with Mike, I prefer to use my buffing wheel on my finishes. But for small items that can be difficult. I have almost finished the small bowl I mentioned in my initial post, I have reversed it on the lathe and finished the outside and am ready to do the final cut off. Using the EEE Ultra Shine I have a good surface, I haven't put the beeswax paste overlay on it yet. I took it to 220 grit sanding then applied the EEE US, the surface is very fine and consistent.

I'll stick with my liquid finishes for much of my work, but I'll experiment with the paste for the small items. Any thoughts from any of you as to a starting point as to how much "grit" to use, whether it is pumice, Trivoli or whatever? Assume 2 oz. of chopped beeswax and 8 fl. oz.of mineral oil (2 lb. cut). A teaspoon, a tablespoon, or more or less? Making the paste from scratch, and stirring it as it gels, will distribute the "grit" - I just need a good guess as to where to start, I'll adjust from there as I see the results.

Thanks again, this is fun,

Best, Jon

 

[Jack Brown]

Jon,
The question was real, thanks for the answer.

 

[Bill Boehme]

Jon, to answer your implied question about your avatar, it needs to be a square 300 X 300 pixels. If it's anything other than that, it will be squeezed or stretched to make it fit the square space. Software is like a dumb sledgehammer. It will beat to fit and paint to match, but it it has no sense of artistic judgement. A 300 X 300 pixel window is pretty small so a simple subject works best.

 

[robo hippy]

Never used the polishing mixes, in part because I mostly do bowls. I had heard about the Yorkshire grit from Mike Waldt (do check out his videos, excellent!). I had figured it was some thing like the old rotten stone or padding that was typically used as a wet finish with lacquer and a buffing ball. The part that puzzles me is bees wax and mineral oil. Bees wax is too soft, and I would think that carnuba wax would be far better. Mineral oil would do okay as a lubricant, but I can't see it for a finish given that it vanishes on wood. I would think walnut oil or any other 'hardening' oil would be far better...

robo hippy

 

[Steve Worcester]

Packards sells EEE
http://www.packardwoodworks.com/Mer...e_Code=packard&Category_Code=finish-shellawax
Although I am not a big fan of wax based finish for anything that is handled alot

 

[Michael Nathal]

The part that puzzles me is bees wax and mineral oil. Bees wax is too soft, and I would think that carnuba wax would be far better. Mineral oil would do okay as a lubricant, but I can't see it for a finish given that it vanishes on wood. I would think walnut oil or any other 'hardening' oil would be far better...

I remember that Mike Meredith of Doctor’s Woodshop described using 4F pumice with walnut oil (or perhaps one of his waxes) to achieve the same thing. Also Brad Sears did a demo for our club, he also used a french polish recipe with a walnut oil/pumice step. The finish he achieved on his pepper mills was quite impressive.

 

[Jon Murphy]

Jack,

Thanks for the response, and for not pointing out that I typed 160 for 16 in oz. per lb.

 

[Jon Murphy]

Robo, and Steve,

I concur, beeswax is soft. I also agree that a wax finish is not the best for things handled a lot. I must comment to Steve that I spent a summer in England in 1948 at age 13. Much of it was on the farm of my mother's best schoolgirl friend. The farm had been in the family a long time, and the dining room table was beautiful. Lucy (the owner) was often asked how they kept it so well. Her answer was - You start with good wood and then you polish it once a week for 400 years. A soft wax polish would work for that, but a hard one wouldn't.

Coming back to Robo, the grit paste isn't intended as a finish, only a finishing process. The mineral oil is meant to disappear, it is only there as a solvent for the beeswax. BTW, if any of you think beeswax is soft try hitting your head with a block of it <g>.

I'm enjoying this thread, and learning from it, as most of my work has been with finishes that affect the wood. When I started turning, learning from David Ellsworth's book and videos, I stuck with his recommendation of Waterlox, a combination of Tung oil and a varnish and a few other things. Since then I've made my own combinations with shellacs or varnishes and different oils.

I finished that small bowl I used the EEE US on, and applied 2 lb. cut beeswax paste while still on the lathe to the outside. I showed it to my wife, who doesn't care how I make it, just has an eye for color. She loved it, the lightness of wood coming through. I didn't tell her that the shine would soon disappear.

There is purpose to all finishes, and that is affected by the use the piece will be put to. Some sink in and both preserve and color the wood, others are surface coats - one size does not fit all projects, or woods - but I do have a golf cap with the label "one size fits most".

 

[Jon Murphy]

Jon, to answer your implied question about your avatar, it needs to be a square 300 X 300 pixels. If it's anything other than that, it will be squeezed or stretched to make it fit the square space. Software is like a dumb sledgehammer. It will beat to fit and paint to match, but it it has no sense of artistic judgement. A 300 X 300 pixel window is pretty small so a simple subject works best.

Bill,
I am a long retired software techie, I fully understand your comment.

In this day and age of planned driverless cars and fears of robotic take overs let me offer two comments.

The first is an old joke from the '60s. As the airliner starts to take off the PA system sends a "this is your pilot" announcement. This is your pilot. I am a computer. I assure you that nothing can go wrong .....go wrong ...... go wrong.

The second refers to your dumb sledgehammer. In the mid '60s I was hired as a consultant with CMP and, as I had a background in the underlying basics of computers from being at IBM as a machine language programmer I was assigned to introduce the computer's technical aspects to our management seminars. One hour on the techie stuff, then three days of sales pitch for our consulting firm.

My spiel was "the computer is a lever for the human mind". A lever increases the mechanical advantage of our muscles, the computer increases the speed of our minds. But if you lift a heavy weight with a lever and drop it in the wrong place you have disaster greater than the one you could cause without it. With an industrial crane I can lift tens of thousands of pounds and drop them in the wrong place. The same applies to the computer, it can make simple errors so much faster than you can that it can cause destruction before you can stop it.

The computer doesn't think, even if it seems to. The computer is programmed by people, and if they didn't think of all the possibilities and branches the computer will be lost. Neal Armstrong overrode the computer in his moon landing, otherwise they would have crashed. Some would say that it was a primitive computer, and it was - but the same applies today. The computer weighs the known risks programmed into it and chooses a course. It is infallable, to the extent of known risks. It can learn from its mistakes, but only learn from the list of mistakes it is given.

Sci-Fi movies be damned, and the same for the modern advocates (I'm sure none of them know bit level programming). A computer is born dumb, a hand held calculator is born smart. The calculator can add and subtract and do logarithms and such, the computer can do nothing without a program. Man is smarter, he designs the calculator and programs the computer. If he programs into the computer a learning algorithm the computer will learn - but if it is the wrong algorithm the computer will learn the wrong thing.

The computer is a tool for the mind, not a substitute. Any tool can be badly used. Please pardon the ramble, but you started me off with that "sledgehammer" comment - with which I fully agree.

 

[Bill Boehme]

I've been messing with compunters since the mid-sixties starting with the Univac 1108 Belchfire Behemoth that occupied a half-acre basement at the University of Houston and needed tons of air conditioning to do what seems so primitive today. I sort of miss some of the early things like the decks of Hollerith cards that you could drop on on the way to the card reader. They had so many practical uses like shimming a table leg or marking a page in a textbook. We even found creative ways to use the chaff from the keypunch machines.

I was an engineer and for most of my career we had to write our own programs and do sanity checks on the results to verify and validate that we were giving the computer the right instructions. Gotta stop, I'm waxing nostalgic ... As they say, nostalgia ain't what it used to be. The good old days are a lot better now than they were the first time around.

 

[james nix]

I would have to look at my ratios later but I mix bees wax,tripoli,pumice, and mineral oil. The bees wax keeps the abrasive suspended,mineral oil thins it and acts as a lube, it works well. But I go over it with wax after buffing it off for the most part. I use microcrystalin wax

 

[Jon Murphy]

I believe the EEe products is pumice. And the Tripoli product is Rottenstons. I was introduced to it back in the 1970s when I took up lutiher work. I was in all the literature but no one I ever met used it.

Pumice is a fine product I don't prefer was abrasives because I do'nt think you can ever really get rid if them. They will work in an always be part of the work.
If you want to skip all the cost just buy pumice and rottenstone not in a was suspension and work it into a formula yourself with some paste wax and BLO or MO.
Grizzly sells a huge can of just pumice stone
Here's a short and sweet write up on both
http://www.leevalley.com/us/shopping/Instructions.aspx?p=41066

A bit late getting back, other things came up. Turns out from further research that EEE is made with Tripoli. I found the mfg's web site (ubeaut.com) .

 

[Jon Murphy]

I would have to look at my ratios later but I mix bees wax,tripoli,pumice, and mineral oil. The bees wax keeps the abrasive suspended,mineral oil thins it and acts as a lube, it works well. But I go over it with wax after buffing it off for the most part. I use microcrystalin wax

Thanks, let me know if you come up with your ratios. Sorry to be slow replying.

 

[Bill Boehme]

A bit late getting back, other things came up. Turns out from further research that EEE is made with Tripoli. I found the mfg's web site (ubeaut.com) .

The name "EEE" is nothing more than a homophone of the name "Tripoli". It's easy to imagine that someone hearing the name of the abrasive might assume that they are hearing "triple E" and probably assuming that the number of E's is an indication of how fine or coarse the abrasive might be.

One might wonder how or why the abrasive came to be called Tripoli in the first place. The answer is that originally it literally came from the shores of Tripoli (or that area of Northern Africa, but I don't know about the halls of Montezuma). Some products are branded as EEE and you might actually be getting rottenstone rather than Tripoli. The distinction between the two probably isn't as important to woodworkers rubbing out a finish as it would be to metal polishing. Tripoli is a fine crystalline silica while rottenstone is decomposed siliceous shale. For more than you might ever want to know on the subject, here is a US Geological Survey report on Tripoli.

Pumice is another mineral used by woodworkers for rubbing out a finish. It is much more aggressive than either rottenstone or Tripoli because the particles have sharp edges. Here is another USGS report on Pumice.

 

[Roy Hennagir]

When using a wax based polishing grit aren't you limiting yourself to a wax based finish? I know shellac isn't to particular about a small amount of wax but most other finishes are.

 

[hockenbery]

When using a wax based polishing grit aren't you limiting yourself to a wax based finish? I know shellac isn't to particular about a small amount of wax but most other finishes are.

That's is true if you use something like EEE on bare wood.
Usually it is used to finish the finish.

For Native American hardwood sanding to 320 or only 220 is sufficient to to give a clean smooth surface that doesn't get better with higher grits on bare wood.
Once a finish is applied higher grits smooth out the finish

 

[John Murray]

I know this is an old thread, but, as a newby, this is exactly why I joined AAW and this forum.....to learn as much as possible about all things turning. This is a fascinating read, not only for the information on paste grits (both purchased and home made concoctions) , but some nostalgic history as well. Thank you all for sharing.

 

[Mike Peace]

I have a video scheduled to be released 11/9 reviewing some of the commercial blends and how to use an abrasive paste. A follow up video is scheduled for 11/16 on a DIY recipe for making your own abrasive paste. https://www.youtube.com/mikepeacewoodturning

 

[Alan Dick]

Mike,
I look foward to seeing these videos, and have enjoyed watching your videos for years.
Alan

I have a video scheduled to be released 11/9 reviewing some of the commercial blends and how to use an abrasive paste. A follow up video is scheduled for 11/16 on a DIY recipe for making your own abrasive paste. https://www.youtube.com/mikepeacewoodturning

 

[Emiliano Achaval]

I have a video scheduled to be released 11/9 reviewing some of the commercial blends and how to use an abrasive paste. A follow up video is scheduled for 11/16 on a DIY recipe for making your own abrasive paste. https://www.youtube.com/mikepeacewoodturning

Looking forward to the video Mike. I started using this kind of finishes a few years ago, when after more than a decade without making boxes, I got back into it, due to my obsession with chasing threads. Most commercial available products do a good job, and are very similar... I have heard that the Yorkshire Grit, was developed using the home made brew of a youtube guy by the name of Daniel Villarino.

 

[Pat Harris]

I Have been using EEE for a number of years on my ornamental bird houses, small boxes and other ornaments and finials with very satisfactory success. It really enriches the darker woods coloring and set us a nice sheen. However after sanding to at least 320 grit before apply Tripoli EEE, I follow it by applying Mylands Friction Polish and finish with the process with Renaissance Micro Crystalline protective was. I get a beautiful hard, high gloss finish. However, I use this process primarily on spindle turning because it is most difficult to get the heat buildup on bowls, etc needed in the application process.

 

[Pat Harris]

PS: I posted about my shiny finishing process because a number of YouTube Turning videos I have watched are taunting how good Yorkshire Grit and Hampshire Sheen are and I too would love to know who else has used these finishing product and the comparative difference in the finishes durability and high gloss sheen.

 

[Emiliano Achaval]

I Have been using EEE for a number of years on my ornamental bird houses, small boxes and other ornaments and finials with very satisfactory success. It really enriches the darker woods coloring and set us a nice sheen. However after sanding to at least 320 grit before apply Tripoli EEE, I follow it by applying Mylands Friction Polish and finish with the process with Renaissance Micro Crystalline protective was. I get a beautiful hard, high gloss finish. However, I use this process primarily on spindle turning because it is most difficult to get the heat buildup on bowls, etc needed in the application process.

I use the Mylands polish on some of my boxes. On bigger things, I always get streaks, not an easy thing to apply. Maybe you can give me some pointers as to how you apply it, how many coats, etc. Aloha

 

[John Torchick]

Interesting thread on another way of finishing. When I read the title about paste grits, it reminded me of some restaurants where I ate.

 

[Vicki Hayden]

I should have said "cut" rather than "mix", but assuming your question is real and not picking on my vocabulary <g> I'll answer. Whenever making a mixture of a soluble solid and a liquid you need to know the proportions in order to get the mixture you want. A cook making a sauce may use tablespoons per cup, but the artisans of old - who might be painting a house - used pounds per gallon. The more pounds of the solid per gallon the thicker the mixture.

We, of course, don't mix our finishes in gallon amounts - but using the same proportions is easy. A gallon is 128 fluid ounces, a pound is 16 ounces. Scale them down to the amount you want. I use 250 ml. "Mason jars", small wide mouthed pots that are quite cheap at Michaels Craft Supplies stores, for my pastes. A half pint (8 fl.oz.) of solvent fits nicely with plenty of room for the additional volume of the beeswax. I can make the mix in the jar. A 2 lb cut/mix is 2 oz of beeswax to 8 fl. oz. of solvent. A 4 lb cut/mix is 4 oz. of beeswax to the 8 fl. oz. Do the math - 8 fl. oz. is 1/16 of a gallon, 2 oz. is 1/16 of 2 pounds (32 oz., at 160 oz. per lb.) - hence a 2 lb. cut. Sounds complicated, but it is a lot easier than using percentages as the total volume changes once the ingredients are mixed.

A 2 lb. cut has a consistency similar to your lady's face cream, a 4 lb. cut more like furniture wax. The softer paste will go deeper into the wood, the harder more a surface coat. Wax, as a finish, is a bit of a misnomer. I don't think I could put a finish on anything by rubbing one of those solid blocks of beeswax on one of my pieces.

What amount of pumice or rottenstone would be added you the mixes you mentioned above? In ounces or cups. TY

 

[Matthew Ferriter]

Interesting thread on another way of finishing. When I read the title about paste grits, it reminded me of some restaurants where I ate.

Do not substitute cheese grits for Yorkshire grit. Or vice versa.

 

[John Torchick]

Good advice. Either way will cause gastric distress in one way or another.

 

[John Turpin]

I too would love to know who else has used these finishing product

I have used YG and HS for over a year now and like them both. The grit product does put an impressive polish on bowls. I like the Hampshire Sheen High Gloss over the traditional. But, neither are food safe and that means that I can't use them on my salad bowls. They are also expensive and don't appear in stores (that I've ever seen). But, they do a great job.

 

[Mike Peace]

I just released a video today on using abrasive pastes and review the three main ones on the market.

View: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yI6j9WyGKJU&t=27s

 

[Don Wattenhofer]

I believe the EEe products is pumice. And the Tripoli product is Rottenstons. I was introduced to it back in the 1970s when I took up lutiher work. I was in all the literature but no one I ever met used it.

Pumice is a fine product I don't prefer was abrasives because I do'nt think you can ever really get rid if them. They will work in an always be part of the work.
If you want to skip all the cost just buy pumice and rottenstone not in a was suspension and work it into a formula yourself with some paste wax and BLO or MO.
Grizzly sells a huge can of just pumice stone
Here's a short and sweet write up on both
http://www.leevalley.com/us/shopping/Instructions.aspx?p=41066

I have an old box of pumice and one of rotten stone which I have been using to polish my pieces finished with lacquer or CA. The urn in my cover photo has about 4 heavy coats of lacquer sanded between coats to 320 then rubbed with pumice (mineral oil soaked rag with pumice) on the lathe first then rotten stone. The residue from polishing is removed with clean soft cloths the apply a carnauba wax.