Video equipment

[Emiliano Achaval]

At our last club meeting/demo I had 24 people at my studio!! Andy Cole showed us how to use the McNaughton system... Great demo. I was finally able to core a bowl!!
People in the back row could not see much. We have decided to start using some sort of camera equipment. We want to have one above the lathe and one more on the side. How can you hook up 2 cameras 2 a TV, or projector? How do you switch from one to the other? From a computer? Is there any help on how to do this?
I own a HD video camera, with all the modern ports available, fire wire, Usb, HDMI... The second camera could be a GO Pro?
Thank you.

 

[john lucas]

Yes you can buy switching devices. I haven't looked to see where to get them. Both clubs I belong to have one and they vary a lot in price and quality. Others will have to chime in on manufacture and price I have not been in on the selection of our units.

 

[hockenbery]

Yes you can buy switching devices. I haven't looked to see where to get them. Both clubs I belong to have one and they vary a lot in price and quality. Others will have to chime in on manufacture and price I have not been in on the selection of our units.

We have avoided HDMI because there is a delay in switching. I was told this is the logic that determines the I put is legal.

 

[Barry Crowder]

Gwinnett Woodworkers has a YT video titled "Behind the scenes at the GWA classroom/studio" that has some ideas you might find useful. As I recall, they discuss several of the issues that you are asking about.

 

[Hy Tran]

The symposium uses HD camcorders (either Sony or Canon, I forget). The rig is a "fixed" overhead camera mounted over the lathe, and a relatively mobile camera on a tripod. The symposium uses HDMI cables from the camcorders to a switchbox, and the output of the switchbox to both a monitor where the camera operator and the lathe demonstrator can see what is being shown to the audience, and a big projector projecting to a screen. The switchbox used at the symposium seems pretty fast.

Our club has a single camera (small club, average budget). We use a Canon HD camcorder (one of the Vixia models) on a tripod. HDMI cable from camcorder to a HDMI splitter, HDMI splitter going to 2 big-screen TV's. We bought the camcorder and switchboxes from B&H Photo/Video, and the big-screens at Costco.

Our audience actually has a better view looking at the big-screen TV than sitting in front of the room (well, somewhat camera operator dependent; we're working with getting the camera operator more experience).

At home, I bought a HDMI switchbox to switch between our Amazon fire video set-top box and a variety of DVD/Blu-Ray players. That switchbox seems to autoswitch pretty well, and if I push the physical button, it cycles through the inputs pretty quickly. I just went by price and customer reviews on Amazon.

Technology changes so fast, that if I told you what TV we bought (and we just bought them in December 2015), you couldn't get them at Costco now.

 

[hockenbery]

Tv or projector is a tough decision. Either can be more difficult to move and store depending on your facility.

I do demos with both systems. Most clubs and symposiums that use tv use two.

Generally if you have more than about 4-5 rows of seats you will want a projector.

TVs are hard to see from far away unless they are really big.
Projectors give a really big image, they also take up a couple seats from the first row.
Tvs are clearer closeup projector screen can look a blurry close up but that is usually where the projector is.

 

[Douglas Ladendorf]

I used to do some videography and I can recommend B&H Photo/Video mentioned above. Great on knowledge and helping you select what you need for your application.

Doug

 

[Jamie Straw]

Our chapter, which sets up chairs about 8 rows deep, uses two large flat-screen TVs, two cameras with remotes, and various accessories that are relatively new. I'll suggest that you contact the guy in our chapter (or any other chapter that has a good set-up) who researched and bought the equipment to get details. Jeff Childs is our videographer, and you can find his phone number under "Staff Positions" on this this page <click>

 

[Bill Boehme]

Tv or projector is a tough decision. Either can be more difficult to move and store depending on your facility.

I do demos with both systems. Most clubs and symposiums that use tv use two.

Generally if you have more than about 4-5 rows of seats you will want a projector.

TVs are hard to see from far away unless they are really big.
Projectors give a really big image, they also take up a couple seats from the first row.
Tvs are clearer closeup projector screen can look a blurry close up but that is usually where the projector is.

I tried to reason with our club officers several years ago when they wanted to go with a projection system, but with visions of movie theater size screens they ignored common sense and did it anyway. What does an electrical engineer know anyway. Unless you get a really high dollar high powered projector, they are dim, you have to darken the room, and it still is unsatisfactory, The image is always distorted because the screen isn't perpendicular to the projector and they are always in the way of where people want to walk. Because of ambient room lighting the contrast of a projected image is always poor when compared to an LCD display. Finally, everybody got thoroughly fed up with the poor quality of the projection system and we went with a first class system with two 60 inch LCD displays with LED back lighting. They are wonderful. They are bright and large enough to be easily seen from anywhere in the room. The cost of large brand X displays can be as low as $200 at certain times of the year (Black Friday, Super Bowl etc.) We also got some really nice remote control video cameras. We also added a monitor for the demonstrator so that they are able to see what the audience is seeing. Initially we tried going wireless, but the delay was driving everybody crazy, especially the demonstrator. So, that idea got scrapped and we went back to a wired system.

 

[Emiliano Achaval]

Thank you!!

You know you are doing too much Facebook when you read replys to your comment and look for the like button!!
Thank you for all the answers!! I will be contacting the fellow turner who bought the equipment for his club... Aloha

 

[Emiliano Achaval]

I tried to reason with our club officers several years ago when they wanted to go with a projection system, but with visions of movie theater size screens they ignored common sense and did it anyway. What does an electrical engineer know anyway. Projectors are dim, you have to darken the room, and it still is unsatisfactory, Finally, everybody got thoroughly fed up with the poor quality of the projection system and we went with a first class system with two 60 inch LCD displays with LED back lighting. They are wonderful. They are bright and large enough to be easily seen from anywhere in the room. The cost of large brand X displays can be as low as $200 at certain times of the year (Black Friday, Super Bowl etc.) We also got some really nice remote control video cameras that are really nice. We also added a monitor for the demonstrator so that they are able to see what the audience is seeing. Initially we tried going wireless, but the delay was driving everybody crazy, especially the demonstrator. So, that idea got scrapped and we went back to a wired system.

Are all projectors hard to see? You get what you pay for? Since I will be the one storing it, a small projector is easier than a 60 inch tv... $200 sounds very reasonable, not sure fi they are going to be that cheap here in Hawaii... Next meeting is may 14th.... Still debating... Aloha

 

[Bill Boehme]

A club that is big enough to need as video system will need something much better than a small projector. It';s easy enough to calculate the relative brightness of a monitor vs. a projector and screen. Don't forget to consider the screen when considering waltzing all the equipment around. Some of the LCD displays these days are really thin and light weight. Our club has an enclosed trailer, but currently we are able to store all of our equipment on the premises of where we meet.

 

[hockenbery]

I tried to reason with our club officers several years ago when they wanted to go with a projection system, but with visions of movie theater size screens they ignored common sense and did it anyway. What does an electrical engineer know anyway. Unless you get a really high dollar high powered projector, they are dim, you have to darken the room, and it still is unsatisfactory, The image is always distorted because the screen isn't perpendicular to the projector and they are always in the way of where people want to walk. Because of ambient room lighting the contrast of a projected image is always poor when compared to an LCD display. Finally, everybody got thoroughly fed up with the poor quality of the projection system and we went with a first class system with two 60 inch LCD displays with LED back lighting. They are wonderful. They are bright and large enough to be easily seen from anywhere in the room. The cost of large brand X displays can be as low as $200 at certain times of the year (Black Friday, Super Bowl etc.) We also got some really nice remote control video cameras. We also added a monitor for the demonstrator so that they are able to see what the audience is seeing. Initially we tried going wireless, but the delay was driving everybody crazy, especially the demonstrator. So, that idea got scrapped and we went back to a wired system.

It is all about distance. Tvs just don't work from long distance.
They did not work for some viewers at swat for the last row.

Most of the central Florida clubs have projectors. None of them dim the lights.
Some of the newer projectors have picture in picture. Seems like a great thing for demonstrators who want to have a slide in the corner.
Big TVs are getting lighter and cheaper.
You can also go to a 4 Tv setup with tvs down the side walls.

This chart may be old on price. Gives an idea of distance.

 

[hockenbery]

I should also add that a skilled videographer can help people see further with TVs by getting closer close ups so people in the back row can see detail on a tv
a normal shot would show on a projector screen

 

[Bill Boehme]

At our last club meeting/demo I had 24 people at my studio!! Andy Cole showed us how to use the McNaughton system... Great demo. I was finally able to core a bowl!!
People in the back row could not see much. We have decided to start using some sort of camera equipment. We want to have one above the lathe and one more on the side. How can you hook up 2 cameras 2 a TV, or projector? How do you switch from one to the other? From a computer? Is there any help on how to do this?
I own a HD video camera, with all the modern ports available, fire wire, Usb, HDMI... The second camera could be a GO Pro?
Thank you.

High Definition or even 4K HD is the way to go. The price of cameras continue to come down and makes it much easier to afford than even just a couple years ago. Whether to use LCD HD televisions or a projector depends on several factors such as the size of your club, room configuration, and especially budget. For our club which meets in a large brightly lit facility and average attendance of about a hundred members, we found that using two large LCD HD displays gave far superior results to using a projection system. If you meet in a location where the ambient lighting is much lower such as in your home living room, then a projector might work. In either case, there are trade-offs. In either case, the objective is to be able to see things in detail as if you were standing at the lathe yourself. Equipment by itself doesn't solve your videography requirements ... you need members willing to learn to use the equipment fluently. Knowing how and where to point the camera and not make everybody seasick by waving the camera around ... a good solid tripod is essential. Having remote controlled cameras is especially nice. I might also mention that people will tolerate some video problems, but when it comes to sound, people are a lot fussier.

Here are a few things to consider:

• The main reason that people want projection systems is to have a very large picture. You need to look at the room and seating arrangement to see how well that works. Will the projector be in the way of people or will peoples heads be in the way?
• Size matters ... A good quality LCD HD TV with LED backlighting will have a maximum brightness of about 1,000 cd/m[SUP]2[/SUP] and if we wanted to project the video onto a screen that is 96 inches wide by 54 inches tall in the same environment as our club's well lit meeting place the projector needs to have an output of about 5,500 ANSI lumens. The thing about projectors is that you can find ones that are affordable, ones that have a high output, and ones that have high definition output, but not all three at the same time. If you want both high brightness and HD then the price goes up to about $2K and higher -- and don't forget the screen. A high quality screen can get amazingly expensive. I was in Fry's Electronics a few weeks ago and was surprised how thin and light some of the HD TV's had become. Don't go overboard on picture size. With a projected image, making the image larger just means that you have to spread the same amount of light over a larger area. Suppose that the brightness is just right when projected 45 inches wide. The you get greedy and project it 90 inches wide ... same amount of light, but four times as much area ... that like going down two f-stops on a camera lens ... makes the picture look really dim.
• Image sharpness: The resolution of of an LCD TV is the size of a screen pixel ... in other words really small image detail limited only by the camera resolution, lens focus, and frame rate (motion blur). By contrast, the light in a projector is also affected by the projector lens and light scattering within the lens elements as well as the scattering created by the reflective beads on the screen. Both of these effects add additional blur. If you go too far on the projected image size, it will be at thew expense of image quality.
• Vignetting: When light passes through a lens, it is brightest at the center and drops off towards the edge. LCD screens, on the other hand doesn't have that problem.
• Viewing angle: LCD HD TV's generally have a very wide viewing angle ... almost 180° on some of the better screens. The viewing angle on projector screens s far less ... dead center is best and 60°
• Contrast: The kind of screen you use with a projector makes a huge difference. Don't even think about using a bed sheet or white wall. Screens range from low cost random glass beads to very expensive fancy prismatic surfaces. But, in all cases, the blackest black that you can see on a projected screen is the same black that you seen when no image is being projected and room ambient light it hitting the screen ... basically a light to medium gray ... or, in other words, a long ways from black. A projector can only project light ... it can't project darkness, so this means that light gray represents black ... and, yes, I know that you can buy a "black light" at Hobby Lobby. LCD display devices will show black as somewhere between dark gray and almost black depending on the quality ... and, of course, price.
• Keystoning: Keystoning is where parallel lines converge ... like looking down railroad tracks that disappear into the horizon. The effect ixs most noticeable when using camera lenses with short focal lengths. It also happens with projected images when the lens centerline isn't perpendicular to the screen. This makes it important to set up the projector and screen to minimize this effect. Of course, this is also a good reason to keep your video camera horizontal except when necessary to see close-up details.

You can get HDMI switchers for as low as $20 for very simple systems up to very fancy equipment for about $1000 that you can control with a laptop computer.

If you want to be on the cutting edge then consider a camera mounted on a drone. It might intimidate the demonstrator, but otherwise would be interesting.

 

[Charlie Knighton]

If you want to be on the cutting edge then consider a camera mounted on a drone

.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nZZ504TGDpE

 

[AlanZ]

In case you are attending the symposium in Atlanta, I will be hosting a Special Interest Night session on Thursday evening.

It is entitled. "Rethinking Demonstrations: Using Live Video"
Although its primary focus is showing presenters how to do multi camera video without having to leave their shop, and have live interactive sessions via the Internet, the equipment could also be used at a club's location.
The setup allows for hi-def, picture in picture, PowerPoint slides, photos, prerecorded videos, and the entire presentation can be recorded.

I will be bringing a full set of equipment with me, for folks to play with and think about.

We may record the session, and make it available for those who cannot attend.

 

[Charlie Knighton]

I wonder how the picture in picture veidio would work with say Jason Breach's work say Orbital Ark box rotation?????????????

 

[Joe Greiner]

Keystoning

Newer projectors avoid distortion by adjusting the source. I don't know if it's done in software/firmware or optically like the shift lens in a view camera. I've seen some seriously off-axis installations - as much as 30 degrees (H) and 10 degrees (V) off axis. Room lighting too. Probably wasn't cheap.

 

[hockenbery]

I wonder how the picture in picture veidio would work with say Jason Breach's work say Orbital Ark box rotation?????????????

I think picture in picture would be great!

With most club set ups showing PowerPoint requires a source change on the monitors or the projector.
Takes a minute or so. It isn't bad if you do it once. But the audience gets restless if you do it twice.

At the FLORIDA symposium the VGA fed into a converter box the camera switch box. The remote from the switch could select one of 3 cameras or the PowerPoint with a click.
We go one for our club and in my last demo I could switch to a slide I wanted to show at a certain point in the demo.
Picture in picture would have been nice....

Converter boxes are about $15 at Amazon.

 

[AlanZ]

Picture in picture, side by side, over and under... We typically don't realize just how often these techniques are used by the program's we watch on television... and they are often used for very good reasons.

 

[hockenbery]

Alan,
I hope you do a video of your session.
I have plans for Thursday evening but I'm about half way to changing them to see your presentation.
A video could let me do both

 

[Bill Boehme]

Newer projectors avoid distortion by adjusting the source. I don't know if it's done in software/firmware or optically like the shift lens in a view camera. I've seen some seriously off-axis installations - as much as 30 degrees (H) and 10 degrees (V) off axis. Room lighting too. Probably wasn't cheap.

T-S lenses are expensive, but the professional projectors that I saw run well over $100K in price which would make the lens seem cheap by comparison. In either case, it requires operator intervention to to set things up. It takes serious computing horsepower to do the scaling on the fly in software. I would think that some sort of T-S lens would still be necessary to maintain focus across the screen. In either case, off-axis projection results in some compromises in image quality because of bit remapping. It's not like vector graphics used in animations where all of the image details being math calculations are easily scalable on the fly. Also. off-axis projection will result in screen brightness being skewed towards one side of the room.

 

[Gerald Lawrence]

I have read this with great interest. I handle the website and video (live only) for our club . We do it with a flat screen , a wireless relay and a panasonic camera. I would like to extend the capability to 2 cameras with switching and remote capability, however the equipment to do so is rather pricey.
I would like to see a set of recommendations for low cost , median cost and Cadillac cost systems so that smaller clubs (we have 55 members) could pick a system to match the bank account and with notes on similar equipment from other companies.

 

[Hal Taylor]

I too am interested in what Gerald proposed. We have just set up a system (small club, basic system). A question for you Gerald - what is your wireless system?

 

[Gerald Lawrence]

I too am interested in what Gerald proposed. We have just set up a system (small club, basic system). A question for you Gerald - what is your wireless system?

I found the Sain Sonic AV wireless sender on Amazon.

http://www.amazon.com/SainSonic-PAT...0124&sr=8-1&keywords=sainsonic+av+transmitter

 

[Bill Boehme]

Our club discovered that a 2.4 GHz wireless system might not be able to give satisfactory results depending upon location where there is interference from other sources in the same frequency range. The wireless solution is a lot neater and costs much less than a wired system, but a wired system is more reliable. Also syncing audio and video isn't a problem in a wired system.

 

[Douglas Ladendorf]

Gerald (or anyone), where would you peg the budgets for this systems? $1K, $2.5K and $5K or something different? It would be easier to spec systems if there is a ballpark budget.

Doug

 

[Steve Worcester]

Gerald (or anyone), where would you peg the budgets for this systems? $1K, $2.5K and $5K or something different? It would be easier to spec systems if there is a ballpark budget.

Doug

It depends on if you want to record the output, that about doubles it.
Figure about $500-$100 per camera without a rig to support them. About $500-$1000 per HDTV (and I would recommend them over a projector). And if you are running multiple cameras, you need a switching device. And for that look at $150+ + cabling. I haven't tried wireless, but any lag in the audio/video will noticeably drive the audience nuts. We tried cheap video over CAT5 and couldn't get it to run the 3 tvs we needed without lag, and at under 100' each.

If you are going to record the whole deal, you would need to feed it all into a computer with a capture device and probably post process it to come up with a watchable video. For that I would say $2-$4K and potentially plus some post processing software costs.

Also understand you need power where each unit is, I don't recommend extension cords in this environment.

 

[Gerald Lawrence]

I do not know anything about the higher cost systems, but here goes.
1. Small system for viewing on 1LED TV and not recorded with seperate audio system and 1 camera wireless transmitter. Lets assume in this system someone donates or uses thier own tripod or camera support. $1000
2. Medium system still only for viewing and not recorded same as #1 with possibly 2 TV and 2 cameras and switching capability, wireless transmitter. $2000 +/-
3. Large system (the sky is the limit) Possibly 2 large TV and 2 small monitors ; wireless transmitter and switching capable; 2 cameras with remote capability; sound compatable with recording capability. Conservative estimate $5-6000.
I am not a professional and these are just my ideas. as I said the sky is the limit and the low cost end could be much lower than 1000.

 

[AlanZ]

Now folks might realize why I have titled the special interest night session "Rethinking Demonstrations"

The configuration I use has high def webcams as inputs to a computer that runs video switching software. The computer outputs to a monitor or projector and can simultaneously record to disk and/or stream via the net.

I have spent the last 9 months testing this approach on both high end, and low end laptop and desktop machines. The hardware and software can be very cost effective.

I can also connect an iPhone as a wireless camera, or use an HDMI to usb3 converter to stream camcorder input into the computer. I have captured CCTV camera, fiber optic inspection camera, and even stream video from a Nikon or Canon DSLR camera. I have also connected remote keyboards and midi controllers to manipulate the video switching software. Oh, and I use chroma key (green screening) to drop myself into any image. Let's face it, I am in it for the toys!

I will be showing many of these toys/techniques in Atlanta.
However complicated it might sound with all the options I have implemented, a simple 2 or 3 camera system can be set up whereby single key presses move between cameras, so even a novice can control the cameras.

As you can see, I have explored many many options. Actually I found getting good audio to be the most challenging part, as I always wear a respirator helmet and run my dust collector... So finding active noise cancellation microphones that work with this equipment was quite a search.

So keep a open mind, and perhaps think a bit outside of the box. I will be offering some suggestions that may change/enhance some folks' approach to doing demonstrations.

 

[KellyDunn]

Alan, I dont know about the dust collector sound but I also wear a dust helmet. Did a demo in Hilo not long back and was given a headset to wear. Put my helmet on and the audience could not hear the loud noise I always hear. So was very pleased. I will try it again with another system to see if it works all the time. Would love to just put my helmet on to turn. For demos have just used a faceshield or my glasses as eye protection. And a dust mask when i sand. Always thought the motor noise of the helmet would be just to much.

 

[Bill Boehme]

Alan, I dont know about the dust collector sound but I also wear a dust helmet. Did a demo in Hilo not long back and was given a headset to wear. Put my helmet on and the audience could not hear the loud noise I always hear. So was very pleased. I will try it again with another system to see if it works all the time. Would love to just put my helmet on to turn. For demos have just used a faceshield or my glasses as eye protection. And a dust mask when i sand. Always thought the motor noise of the helmet would be just to much.

That sounds very interesting, Kelly. Keep us informed about what you learn.

 

[Joe Greiner]

Now folks might realize why I have titled the special interest night session "Rethinking Demonstrations"

The special interest night always involves some hard choices.

Will you be recording your session?

Joe

 

[AlanZ]

Kelly,

I have used a variety of headset microphones under my helmet respirators. One cardioid (directional) unit with passive noise canceling was particularly good plugged into a wireless transmitter.

The one I use with the computer is self contained wireless and uses DECT protocol into a USB connection. Interesting tools. I tested about a dozen different microphones, both wired and wireless... each have their strengths.

Quality audio is actually more important than the video.

 

[AlanZ]

Joe,

I hope to record the session.

 

[Douglas Ladendorf]

Wish I could make it this year. Hope to catch the recording Alan.

 

[Emiliano Achaval]

Maui

I wish there was only one good option. I hope you can write more about the set up. Not sure if I will make to Atlanta. But, yes, I can see why you are having a discussion... Thanks for your help. Aloha

Now folks might realize why I have titled the special interest night session "Rethinking Demonstrations"

The configuration I use has high def webcams as inputs to a computer that runs video switching software. The computer outputs to a monitor or projector and can simultaneously record to disk and/or stream via the net.

I have spent the last 9 months testing this approach on both high end, and low end laptop and desktop machines. The hardware and software can be very cost effective.

I can also connect an iPhone as a wireless camera, or use an HDMI to usb3 converter to stream camcorder input into the computer. I have captured CCTV camera, fiber optic inspection camera, and even stream video from a Nikon or Canon DSLR camera. I have also connected remote keyboards and midi controllers to manipulate the video switching software. Oh, and I use chroma key (green screening) to drop myself into any image. Let's face it, I am in it for the toys!

I will be showing many of these toys/techniques in Atlanta.
However complicated it might sound with all the options I have implemented, a simple 2 or 3 camera system can be set up whereby single key presses move between cameras, so even a novice can control the cameras.

As you can see, I have explored many many options. Actually I found getting good audio to be the most challenging part, as I always wear a respirator helmet and run my dust collector... So finding active noise cancellation microphones that work with this equipment was quite a search.

So keep a open mind, and perhaps think a bit outside of the box. I will be offering some suggestions that may change/enhance some folks' approach to doing demonstrations.

 

[Andy Chen]

AAW Equipment Sale

In case you are interested, this just came out today:

AAW Video Equipment For Sale to Chapters
AAW has a number of items no longer needed in our inventory. In addition to the listings below (see attached JPG file), we still have one safety shield apparatus available. If you are interested in more information about these items, please contact Linda Ferber at 651-484-9094, 877- 595-9094 (toll free) or linda@woodturner.org.

 

[Tom Cadwalader]

AAW equipment

I seem to recall an article that detailed the equipment that is used at the symposiums. It talked about the framework that supports everything as well as the A/V equipment. At least that's what I remember. I have searched the archives for an hour but can't find it.
Anyone else remember this?