turquoise and brass crack filler

[Bob Strand]

Hi,
Picked up some coarse ground turquoise while down in AZ and ground it up with a kitchen mortar and pestle to a fine powder and filled some cracks in bowls of cottonwood, black walnut and applewood. Worked pretty good but I don't want to go through the hand grinding process with the mortar and pestle much more. I'd like some input on what sort of product may work well and where to buy it. I'm using super thin CA as an adhesive for doing this. Would that be right?

Thanks,
Bob

 

[john lucas]

I like Inlace chunks. They sell Inlace which is a resin of some sort that has pre mixed powders in it but you can also buy just the powders and chips and use what ever epoxy or glue you like. I get mine from https://www.turtlefeathers.net/product-category/inlace-products/

 

[Dean Center]

You can make a metal 'mortar and pestle': take a short section of metal pipe and screw or solder a cap on one end, place the turquoise in the 'cup' you've made, then crush it with a metal rod of slightly smaller diameter. The chunks are contained and you have decent control over how small you make the pieces. There are undoubtedly many ways to make things nicer, but that's the basics of the method.

 

[Gil Jones]

Pulverizing Turquoise

I use an electric coffee bean grinder...(the kind with a stainless steel 2-winged spinning blade).
It works quite well, and I am able to grind the small chunks down to a relatively fine powder.
Plus, the grinding is rather rough on the grinder, so I try to find used ones in Goodwill and such stores.
The only drawback lately is the high cost of turquoise.
The last price was $110 per pound of the stuff they sweep off the floor. I would pass on that cost.
Gil

 

[Bill Boehme]

Hi,
Picked up some coarse ground turquoise while down in AZ and ground it up with a kitchen mortar and pestle to a fine powder and filled some cracks in bowls of cottonwood, black walnut and applewood. Worked pretty good but I don't want to go through the hand grinding process with the mortar and pestle much more. I'd like some input on what sort of product may work well and where to buy it. I'm using super thin CA as an adhesive for doing this. Would that be right?

i have made a pipe mortar and pestle very similar to what Dean Center described. Turquoise is very hard and fragments will fly all over the place if not we'll contained. We have a coffee grinder, but I'm sure that I would be in big trouble if I used it to grind up "rocks".

There are two different types of filling that I do: defects and a turned groove. The wood needs to be thoroughly dry so that it won't move. When I am filling with real stone, I always use clear Inlace resin. CA becomes very brittle and chips easily when turning it. All epoxy turns very yellow-orange over time even the stuff labeled as clear. Inlace turns better than epoxy or CA and remains crystal clear. Most minerals are very hard ... after all they are just pretty rocks and rocks are very hard on tools. So make sure that when you fill that the stone will be below the level of the finished surface. You will find out why this is important if you don't heed this advice.

Inlace also offers premixed artificial turquoise and other stone like fillers. These "stones" are made from the same plastic resin as the clear resin. I like the turquoise Inlace since it goes very nicely with mesquite. Inlace has a large assortment of nuggets, granules, metallic flakes, and dyes so that you can create a wide variety of effects.

If you want to go straight to the source for Inlace acrylester: http://www.inlaceonline.com/

The clear resin is Reichhold Polylite 32153.

 

[John K Jordan]

...The wood needs to be thoroughly dry so that it won't move...

This worries me since even dry wood moves with the seasons. I've seen (and heard reports of) the fill in pieces separating after years of wood movement, in one case even popping out of the crack. Has anyone else seen this?

I suspect this would be more of a problem for certain size, geometry, thickness, and wood type. It might be more likely to survive if the kept in a humidity-stable environment.

Maybe a flexible filler would be more durable - I have some flexible CA glue I want to try with brass inlay.

JKJ

 

[Gretch Flo]

We have a coffee grinder, but I'm sure that I would be in big trouble if I used it to grind up "rocks"....

I have 2 coffee grinders (about $12-13 ea- got at local food/general merchandise store.) One is for shellac flakes to make own sanding sealer, other is for bark-black walnut,maple mostly for filling cracks with epoxy or CA. Not sure what it would do with inlace. I tried to make some CSUSA inlace to make more powdery, and I don't think it did much to make it finer. Can;'t say that it made the 2 blades duller. With bark it makes it powder.

Gretch

 

[hockenbery]

This worries me since even dry wood moves with the seasons. I've seen (and heard reports of) the fill in pieces separating after years of wood movement, in one case even popping out of the crack. Has anyone else seen this? . JKJ

I had it happen to a piece in a gallery show about 15 years ago.
A multi center platter about 16" diameter dry (maybe not as dry as I thought) cherry.
I had filled a grove with inlace that I had cut on one of the centers.
Got a call one morning from the gallery manager who reported the ring popping up an 1/8 inch.
She knew I would want it out of the show but could I repair it before the end of the show.

I did not dovetail the groove which probably would have kept the ring in place.

For some reason the inlace did not bind to the wood well.

I rarely use any fillers - maybe the bad experience has influenced that.

 

[Richard Coers]

Pretty sure inlace is polyester resin, sure smells like it. PR shrinks as it cures, so can loosen the bond with wood even before the wood shrinks.

 

[John K Jordan]

I rarely use any fillers - maybe the bad experience has influenced that.

Same here. I've have been experimenting with metal fillers, especially brass but I try to pay close attention to the wood and stick to grooves or carving - I have never filled a crack.

I do love wood with natural voids and defects, but generally do not like cracks. If a piece of wood cracks before turning it gets cut into a smaller blank, a crack during or after turning sends it to the burn pile. I figure if some stress has caused a crack, that stress may not be entirely stabilized and might even crack more. Besides, I personally don't like the look of a filled crack. (This is certainly not said in detriment to those who do like filled cracks - there is plenty of room in the world of wood for different viewpoints!!)

JKJ

 

[Bill Boehme]

This worries me since even dry wood moves with the seasons. I've seen (and heard reports of) the fill in pieces separating after years of wood movement, in one case even popping out of the crack. Has anyone else seen this?....

I haven't, but I am sure that it can happen. I realize that everything moves to some degree so I try to analyze what will or won't work. A thin ring with a large diameter in wood that moves is likely to crack. Give the ring a large amount of fill material such as turquoise granules and dust and it is guaranteed to crack. If the groove is smooth, the material will pop out. If the wood isn't completely dry then wait for it to dry before doing any kind of inlay. I go for a wide and deep groove that is significantly undercut and the undercut area is left rough. Color the groove with a black Sharpie and then use super thin CA to stabilize the surrounding wood before adding the Inlace resin. Well behaved wood like mesquite can be constrained from moving so that it doesn't cause cracks in the inlay ... or itself. If the wood is thin, it is harder to crack the inlay. One thing that I have considered, but haven't tried is to use the equivalent of expansion joints in sidewalks.

BTW, John, I bought a book a few days ago and tonight while reading on page 120 .... there was your name. I'm sure that you know the book is "River of Destiny" and a person named Binh Pho saw your presentation on woodturning at a woodworking show. He was so taken by what he saw that he bought a lathe before he left the show. You never know where things will lead.

Pretty sure inlace is polyester resin, sure smells like it. PR shrinks as it cures, so can loosen the bond with wood even before the wood shrinks.

Polyester resin is somewhat of a general term that covers a broad range of resins with diverse properties. Unlike some isophthalic polyester high styrene laminating resins such as those used in fiberglass work, Reichhold Polylite 32153 is an orthophthalic casting resin that is water clear and has zero shrink when curing. Reichhold makes a wide range of resins for applications like molds, laminates, counter tops, fiberglass, bowling balls, etc. Some of the resins are rigid and some have various amounts of flex.

While Inlace probably doesn't bond as strongly as epoxy, in my experience it appears to make a good bond with wood. Of course Inlace, CA, and epoxy all cure hard. Some wood moves a lot more than others so it makes sense to only use well behaved wood for inlay work.

 

[John K Jordan]

John Jordan and John K Jordan

BTW, John, I bought a book a few days ago and tonight while reading on page 120 .... there was your name. I'm sure that you know the book is "River of Destiny" and a person named Binh Pho saw your presentation...

I don't know that book but I'm pretty sure that is the other John Jordan. We are both the same age, both live in TN, and both turn wood. He is famous professional woodturner, teaches for money, does demos in major venues, sells each piece for thousands of dollars, and has pieces in galleries and museums all over, even in the Smithsonian. I run a llama farm, teach kindergarten Sunday School, teach woodturning for free, do demos at local clubs, give away most of what I make, and have pieces in the hands of kids and friends all over!

I always go by "John K Jordan" but it's still confusing - people have sent me facebook requests and tools. I told him so far no one has sent me any of his money. He did tell me that at the last TN symposium people kept coming up and telling him how much they liked my amazing carved bowl in the instant gallery so he finally just started smiling and saying thanks!

I do have a nice block of wood he gave me of the size to make one of his carved hollow forms, but it sits on the shelf waiting for someone who wants it. I don't have much interest in hollow forms.

Here we are together:



And a picture outside the 2010 symposium with
Doug Thompson, John Jordan, John Lucas, and me:



JKJ

 

[Gretch Flo]

I don't know that book but I'm pretty sure that is the other John Jordan. We are both the same age, both live in TN, and both turn wood. He is famous professional woodturner, teaches for money, does demos in major venues, sells each piece for thousands of dollars, and has pieces in galleries and museums all over, even in the Smithsonian. I run a llama farm, teach kindergarten Sunday School, teach woodturning for free, do demos at local clubs, give away most of what I make, and have pieces in the hands of kids and friends all over!


View attachment 9593

And a picture outside the 2010 symposium with
Doug Thompson, John Jordan, John Lucas, and me:

View attachment 9592

JKJ

You forgot-you have more hair than he!!! Gretch

 

[Bob Strand]

filler

Thanks for the info. There's a lot of grey area between the black and white. I have a piece of round, 2" solid brass that I'll chuck up and file to get some product. I'd thought of looking up a power hacksaw to get some brass filings but the file trick should do it.

Thanks again.

Bob

 

[John K Jordan]

...I have a piece of round, 2" solid brass that I'll chuck up and file to get some product. I'd thought of looking up a power hacksaw to get some brass filings but the file trick should do it.

Bob, my experience is it's easy to get filings too coarse and the inlay looks too grainy to me. I bought the powders recommend/sold by Ted Solokowski and they looked grainy too. I bought some from Amazon as fine as talcum powder and the CA glue would not soak in. I tried mixing the two with mixed results. I recently acquired some extremely fine filters so my next experiment is going to be filtering the finest grains from the powdered metal and dusting those on the top surface of the inlay to see if that would look smoother.

If you find something that works well for you, I'd like to hear about it.

BTW, a 2" round rod of solid brass is valuable to a machinist!

JKJ

 

[Bill Boehme]

Thanks for the info. There's a lot of grey area between the black and white. I have a piece of round, 2" solid brass that I'll chuck up and file to get some product. I'd thought of looking up a power hacksaw to get some brass filings but the file trick should do it.

Thanks again.

Bob

If you want brass filings, I have a coffee can full of brass filings that I can't seem to give away. Years ago, I "won" the can of key filings at a club meeting. I was thrilled until I discovered that I didn't really like how it looked although I probably shouldn't blame the filings for my ineptitude. I would throw it in the trash, but it's sort of like owning a white elephant. Pay the postage and it's yours.

Sorry, John K. for my faux pas. The other John Jordan is also a member of this forum and I wondered why he stopped using his avatar. Looking at the pictures, I think that the two of you could pass for fraternal twins. I have met both Doug Thompson and John Lucas. Maybe I'll have the pleasure of meeting you and the other John Jordan. I suppose that not everyone in woodturning has a unique name. I'm still looking for the rich and famous Bill Boehme.

The book that I mentioned is a biographical sketch that relates Binh Pho's works to his life's experiences including being beaten, tortured, and starved in Communist prison camps, finally escaping Vietnam in a sinking boat, and meeting Vi and finding true happiness. The book was released in conjunction with his exhibition at the Long Beach Museum of Art. I found the book to be a page-turner and it gave me a tremendous insight into his works.

 

[Dean Center]

Bob,
If you stop in at Markle's, they'll happily empty the drawer under their key machine into a container and you can have all the brass filings you want for free. Hard to know if they're actually brass, but they're the right color. I found them hard to work with and if you brush your finger over a filled surface, you're likely to get a golden sliver in your finger which is very, very hard to see.

Bill,
Modern epoxies don't have to turn yellow/amber. The ones we use on fishing rods are formulated to stay colorless indefinitely.

 

[Gretch Flo]

Bob,

"Bill,
Modern epoxies don't have to turn yellow/amber. The ones we use on fishing rods are formulated to stay colorless indefinitely.

"


Dean-how can you tell with the epoxies that are in hardware stores if they stay colorless??? Gretch

 

[Nate Hawkes]

Bob,
If you stop in at Markle's, they'll happily empty the drawer under their key machine into a container and you can have all the brass filings you want for free. .

I've done this at my local hardware store, and had good results. Just be careful you don't get filings under your fingernails. Depending on the cutters in the machine, sometimes they are large and sharp enough to pierce soft skin. FYI, for me this worked better with epoxy than CA glue, which made it somewhat cloudy looking.