Reverse rotation: perfect for undercuts and finishing cuts on bowls

[Sergio Villa]

Hello everybody, in a recent thread the problem of making undercuts on bowls in a fixed head lathe was discussed. Unless the lathe has a short, very short lathe it can be difficult. I'm right handed and found that using the lathe in reverse makes this cut very easy, almost natural. This is true also for finishing push cuts done with a gouge on the ouside of a bowl. The problems with reverse rotation starts in the transition line in the undercuts and to a point dictated by the shape in the outside finishing cuts. Here it is better to go back to the normal dire tion of rotation.
Here are pictures of a shallow bowl I was turning today with a shight undercut as part of a nested bowl set.

 

[Bill Boehme]

Do you find it necessary to use a setscrew on the chuck to keep it from unscrewing while turning in reverse?

 

[Sergio Villa]

Bill, the Vicmarc has a very secure safety collar to hold the chuck. When I go in reverse I generally use light cuts. The chuck never got loose even when I did not use the collar.

 

[odie]

Nice work, Sergio!

My first thought was the same as Bill's.....the need for a set screw. Most spindles, these days, have hardened spindles, so set screws are an option that won't damage the spindle threads. My lathe doesn't have a hardened spindle, so that option isn't a good one, in my particular case.

What is this safety collar you speak of? Is it something that compresses against the spindle threads......sort of like a collet chuck?

ko

 

[Fred Belknap]

I have brass tip set screws on my Oneway chucks. On a lathe I use to have they screwed down on the threads of the spindle so I got brass tip grub screws to prevent damage to the spindle threads. I always use the set screw when using reverse, had a piece come off one time, not a fun situation. Use thread lock on the grub screw threads or they will come out and get lost in the shavings.

 

[Andy Chen]

Hello everybody, in a recent thread the problem of making undercuts on bowls in a fixed head lathe was discussed. Unless the lathe has a short, very short lathe it can be difficult. I'm right handed and found that using the lathe in reverse makes this cut very easy, almost natural. This is true also for finishing push cuts done with a gouge on the ouside of a bowl. The problems with reverse rotation starts in the transition line in the undercuts and to a point dictated by the shape in the outside finishing cuts. Here it is better to go back to the normal dire tion of rotation.
Here are pictures of a shallow bowl I was turning today with a shight undercut as part of a nested bowl set.

I hardly ever turn platters or bowls but for the last couple of years I have been turning hollow forms in reverse, just the final cuts. You have your arm tucked and the tool handle close to your body this way. It is just more comfortable and you have much more control this way.

 

[Sergio Villa]

Odie, the Vicmarc uses a collar that goes around the particular shape of the assembly spindle/vicmarc chuck.is basically a collar.
As said you can use brass or perhaps stainless steel set screws if you use the Oneway chucks.
I found that with heavy chucks snugly screwed against the spindle and light cuts the chuck do not get unscrewed. Different story with chucks like the Talons etc.
The interesting thing about turning in reverse is how natural it is for a right handed, different story for a left handed I believe. You do not have to turn your body or make any strange acrobatics.

 

[hockenbery]

. The interesting thing about turning in reverse is how natural it is for a right handed, different story for a left handed I believe. You do not have to turn your body or make any strange acrobatics.

Quite a few people hollow turn with the lathe in reverse. For many it is having good posture.
I occasionally run the lathe backwards and may go to the other side.

Learning to turn with ether hand forward is a good thing. It took me years and to get good.
Being able to use either hand forward solves a lot of problems of seeing the profile, having good posture, and keeping chips out of your face.
I started out switching hands when I roughed things so I couldn't do much damage.
After a long long time I began to feel equal comfort with either hand forward.

Have fun,
Al

 

[odie]

Odie, the Vicmarc uses a collar that goes around the particular shape of the assembly spindle/vicmarc chuck.is basically a collar.
As said you can use brass or perhaps stainless steel set screws if you use the Oneway chucks.
I found that with heavy chucks snugly screwed against the spindle and light cuts the chuck do not get unscrewed. Different story with chucks like the Talons etc.
The interesting thing about turning in reverse is how natural it is for a right handed, different story for a left handed I believe. You do not have to turn your body or make any strange acrobatics.

Sergio......

I had a couple of Vicmarc chucks that used "tommy bars", some 25 years ago, and don't recall this. I suppose the newer versions are updated with this collar.....and, it sounds like a very good upgrade.

Since I am a faceplate turner, using faceplates that have no provision for set screws, it would be difficult for me to pursue this safely. I do have some Stronghold chucks that have provision for set screws, but only use them for roughing bowls in preparation for moisture content stabilization.

The whole concept of turning in reverse rotation is new to me, and an interesting concept, for sure. Thanks for bringing this up.

ko

 

[Bill Boehme]

Sergio......

I had a couple of Vicmarc chucks that used "tommy bars", some 25 years ago, and don't recall this. I suppose the newer versions are updated with this collar.....and, it sounds like a very good upgrade.

Since I am a faceplate turner, using faceplates that have no provision for set screws, it would be difficult for me to pursue this safely. I do have some Stronghold chucks that have provision for set screws, but only use them for roughing bowls in preparation for moisture content stabilization.

The whole concept of turning in reverse rotation is new to me, and an interesting concept, for sure. Thanks for bringing this up.

ko

I have two fairly new Vicmarc chucks and I didn't follow what Sergio meant in his description. Maybe the locking collar is something that is part of the Vicmarc lathe. It isn't a part of the Vicmarc chucks.

I have a couple EWT faceplates and they came with setscrews that have rounded tips rather than the typical cup tips. The cup tips are really intended for permanent installations where the tip digs into the metal helping to insure that the screw stays there... forever. The more gentle types of setscrews are harder to find ... most hardware stores don't stock them, but they are the only way to go if you want to lock a chuck or faceplate to the spindle. I have seen the rounded tip setscrews with tips of steel, brass, and nylon.

 

[Lee Tourtelotte]

I have two fairly new Vicmarc chucks and I didn't follow what Sergio meant in his description. Maybe the locking collar is something that is part of the Vicmarc lathe. It isn't a part of the Vicmarc chucks.

I have a couple EWT faceplates and they came with setscrews that have rounded tips rather than the typical cup tips. The cup tips are really intended for permanent installations where the tip digs into the metal helping to insure that the screw stays there... forever. The more gentle types of setscrews are harder to find ... most hardware stores don't stock them, but they are the only way to go if you want to lock a chuck or faceplate to the spindle. I have seen the rounded tip setscrews with tips of steel, brass, and nylon.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Bill -- FYI
The locking collar that Sergio referred to is part of the Vicmarc lathe, and is not supplied with Vicmarc chucks. It is a split cylinder, held together by two cap screws, and is grooved underneath on both ends to fit over the Vicmarc spindle and Vicmarc chucks. It stores, when not in use, on the hand wheel side of the spindle. It solidly prevents Vicmarc chucks from spinning loose when running the lathe in reverse. Can attach a picture if you want to see in more detail.

Lee Tourtelotte

 

[JeffSmith]

The more gentle types of setscrews are harder to find ... most hardware stores don't stock them, but they are the only way to go if you want to lock a chuck or faceplate to the spindle. I have seen the rounded tip setscrews with tips of steel, brass, and nylon.

Bill: McMaster-Carr carries all the variations - steel, brass and plastic tipped set screws in various sizes. I switched over to brass tips after boogering up the threads on the Jet I used to turn on. Unhardened spindles can be a pain if you're not paying attention. Got enough of them for all my chucks and a few to stash for when they wind up in the shavings.

Learned to hollow in reverse from Dave Schweitzer. Bought his hand hollowing tool - it's available for either reverse or standard use. He showed me the advantages of reverse turning when hollowing. Now it's my standard method even when using my Jamieson-style captured bar. Much easier to see what you're doing and a more comfortable position that's easier on the back.

 

[john lucas]

I frequently turn my hand mirrors in reverse. I do this because I use a push cut and it allows me to turn a sloped or convex outside while cutting downhill with the grain. It's also handy for turning undercut lips on bowls and platters. I use Vicmarc chucks and I install the chuck and then lock the spindle and give it an extra push with the chuck key. I haven't have one come off yet. These are smaller items, usually under 12".

 

[Bill Boehme]

... The locking collar that Sergio referred to is part of the Vicmarc lathe, and is not supplied with Vicmarc chucks. It is a split cylinder, held together by two cap screws, and is grooved underneath on both ends to fit over the Vicmarc spindle and Vicmarc chucks. It stores, when not in use, on the hand wheel side of the spindle. It solidly prevents Vicmarc chucks from spinning loose when running the lathe in reverse. Can attach a picture if you want to see in more detail...

Thanks, Lee (in Baja Canada ). I was beginning to suspect as much because that would explain the groove in the spindle adapter on the Vicmarc chucks. When I first got a Vicmarc chuck I puzzled over the odd looks of the spindle adapter and the fact that it stuck out so far from the body of the chuck.

 

[Sergio Villa]

Here is a copy of the page of the Vicmarc manual that shows the safety collar. You can buy them but they fit in the particular specular simmetric shape of the spindle and chuck thus they will not work on the oneway. Obviously I do not use the one that is normally in the outboard side but a spare one. They are cheap enough to buy.

 

[Sergio Villa]

Quite a few people hollow turn with the lathe in reverse. For many it is having good posture.
I occasionally run the lathe backwards and may go to the other side.

Learning to turn with ether hand forward is a good thing. It took me years and to get good.
Being able to use either hand forward solves a lot of problems of seeing the profile, having good posture, and keeping chips out of your face.
I started out switching hands when I roughed things so I couldn't do much damage.
After a long long time I began to feel equal comfort with either hand forward.

Have fun,
Al

Hi,
left or right hand when you turn in the conventional direction of rotation you have to negotiate with the headstock. Vicmarc is particularly good at letting you cut from left to right, ie it has a good head, but still the head is in the way. In reverse you do not have to mess with the headstock and can still see what you are doing, in a natural way, without years of left hand training.
As I said before, if one is naturally left handed he is out of luck.

 

[Andy Chen]

Thanks, Lee (in Baja Canada ). I was beginning to suspect as much because that would explain the groove in the spindle adapter on the Vicmarc chucks. When I first got a Vicmarc chuck I puzzled over the odd looks of the spindle adapter and the fact that it stuck out so far from the body of the chuck.

Bill, if you had bought the VM chuck WITH the insert (made by VM) you'd have that groove for the locking collar. Third-party inserts don't have it. I have drilled a hole and tapped threads where that groove is because that's just about where the groove on the Oneway spindle is (only on 1640 and larger). All Oneway holding devices that I have (Strogholds and face plates. I don't own a Talon) have setscrews for securing them onto the spindle where that groove is. The Oneway spindle is hardened and the screw shouldn't mar the groove. (The same thing can't be said about all brands of lathes.) Still, it would be better to use setscrews with flat tip like the ones that come with Oneway chucks/face plates. You are most likely to find only setscrews with cupped tip in your local hardware store. It is hard to safely grind that cup flat but you can find just about any screw in the McMaster-Carr catalog, http://www.mcmaster.com/, even the metric ones for the Oneway.

 

[KellyDunn]

Don Derry teaches turning in reverse for hollow vessels. The trick is to cinch down your chuck or faceplate. most of my faceplates were made by Howard Borer. A wrench fits on them very nice. so I had a two foot long wrench made to fit them. My straka chucks weigh a bit. I do a lot of reverse sanding so number one rule is to really cinch it down. When I have forgotten to do so its a surprise when it unscrews. But never had one come off after cinching it down. Thats after more than 25 years of doing this.

 

[Bill Boehme]

Bill, if you had bought the VM chuck WITH the insert (made by VM) you'd have that groove for the locking collar. Third-party inserts don't have it....

I'm fairly certain that the inserts that came with my chucks that I bought from Craft Supplies are genuine Vicmarc parts. They do have the groove for the locking collar, but I didn't know why the groove was there nor why the insert stuck out so far from the chuck body compared to my Oneway chucks until Sergio mentioned the locking collar. Your solution for a setscrew drilled in the groove sounds like a great idea. I haven't done much reverse turning except for very light duty stuff, but I'll file that idea in one of my memory banks and hope that I will be able to retrieve it if needed.

Here is what the insert on my Vicmarc chucks look like:

 

[Sergio Villa]

Yes, it is a shiny Vicmarc chuck with an insert. The VM 120 and 150 come also without the insert but with a direct thread 11/4/8 or metric. Much much better, I'm not fond of the little set screw on the insert or of adaptors in general. I have four of them and only one with the insert.

 

[Jeff Smith]

Sergio,

I was turning a small platter just lately and at one point during the process I wondered if I could turn it in reverse. I just figured because it's not mainstream there was a logical reason why everyone isn't doing it. I'm going to give a try now. Thanks!

Jeff

 

[hockenbery]

Sergio, I was turning a small platter just lately and at one point during the process I wondered if I could turn it in reverse. I just figured because it's not mainstream there was a logical reason why everyone isn't doing it. I'm going to give a try now. Thanks! Jeff

If you get an idea that seems safe try it.
If you go to a few symposium you will see quite a few folks turning in reverse.
It isn't all that rare to see someone reverse the lathe in a demo.

More common in hollowing .

Al.

 

[KurtB]

Be aware that the larger the diameter, or the greater the mass of the piece, the greater the possibility of hitting the stop button and watching the piece, along with faceplate or chuck simply unscrew itself from the lathe! This can be very intimidating, don't ask me how I know... The use of a set screw can help reduce this, and gradually slowing down the lathe will also help.

 

[Bill Boehme]

Be aware that the larger the diameter, or the greater the mass of the piece, the greater the possibility of hitting the stop button and watching the piece, along with faceplate or chuck simply unscrew itself from the lathe! This can be very intimidating, don't ask me how I know... The use of a set screw can help reduce this, and gradually slowing down the lathe will also help.

I'm a believer. It was a bit exciting the first time that I turned a piece of mesquite that weighed about 75 pounds and it came very close to unscrewing itself. I didn't have any setscrews that were the right size so, after that, instead of hitting the stop button, I stopped the lathe using the Power/Emergency Stop button which just lets the lathe freewheel to a stop instead of the normal ramp-down braking.

 

[Jeff Smith]

If you get an idea that seems safe try it.
If you go to a few symposium you will see quite a few folks turning in reverse.
It isn't all that rare to see someone reverse the lathe in a demo.

More common in hollowing .

Al.

I'm a little out of touch because I haven't turned anything to speak of for the last couple years or so and am getting back into it because of my new job so I'll be going to some symposiums around the country and get up to speed. It sounds like the first thing to do is try to find that set screw for my chuck.

Jeff

 

[JeffSmith]

It sounds like the first thing to do is try to find that set screw for my chuck.

Jeff - I got a dozen or so set screws for all my chucks after a piece decided to unscrew itself on the Jet 1642 I was turning on at the time. I hollow in reverse and ocaisionally sand in reverse, too. Since it had an un-hardened spindle, I elected to get the brass tipped screws to give the threads on the spindle a little protection from galling. Found them online at McMaster Carr. They carry steel, brass-tipped and plastic tipped screws. They now reside permanently in every chuck I've got.

 

[Bill Boehme]

I'm a little out of touch because I haven't turned anything to speak of for the last couple years or so and am getting back into it because of my new job so I'll be going to some symposiums around the country and get up to speed. It sounds like the first thing to do is try to find that set screw for my chuck.

Jeff

Oneway chucks do not come with setscrews. I don't know about Nova or the low cost ones. Vicmarc chucks need to be modified before you can use them with a setscrew. I like the setscrews that EWT supplies with their chucks and faceplates -- they are all steel with a tip that is smooth and slightly rounded.

 

[Gerald Lawrence]

Oneway chucks do not come with setscrews. I don't know about Nova or the low cost ones. Vicmarc chucks need to be modified before you can use them with a setscrew. I like the setscrews that EWT supplies with their chucks and faceplates -- they are all steel with a tip that is smooth and slightly rounded.

Nova has a set screw and I think it is the hardened type with the cone like end.

 

[odie]

My faceplates do not have provision for set screws, so reverse rotation is not an option for me....except I do use it for sanding.

I was wondering about how a right handed person does reverse rotation turning.....it does seem a bit awkward to me. Do those who do use reverse turning, do you do it left handed?

ko

 

[Sergio Villa]

Odie, if you look at my first picture, you see that the tool rest is specularly position respect to the normal way. This allows to use the tool with the right hand pushing from the rim to the center for the inside. Easy, really easy. For the outside there are limitations such shape size and the loking lever of the toolrest shaft. I believe only oneway has a very good tool rest with the tool rest in the midle of the banjo and the lever in the perfect position. In any case the cut is the same, a push cut nice and easy from the bottom to the rim usually for the first third of the bowl. Obviously the bowl must be hold with a vacuum chuck otherwise the banjo will make it impossible.
If you sand in reverse my feeling is that you can cut too, as long as the chuck is heavy and snagged against the shoulder of the spindle. There are aslo set screws with brass point that I use for the two small oneway chucks I have.

 

[hockenbery]

My faceplates do not have provision for set screws, so reverse rotation is not an option for me....except I do use it for sanding. I was wondering about how a right handed person does reverse rotation turning.....it does seem a bit awkward to me. Do those who do use reverse turning, do you do it left handed? ko

The cut can be made with either hand forward.
I would choose my left hand forward.

Like most things in woodturning the reverse turning to hollow a bowl has trade offs.
A plus It can be done with the right hand forward where as hollowing with forward rotation on the left side of the bowl the right hand forward is very difficult if even possible.

When I choose which hand to have forward I consider Posture, sight lines, and where the chips will go.

Sight lines: I like to follow the outside wall as I hollow. Working on the opposite side of the bowl makes it difficult to see both sides. In natural edge bowls I can seen both sides on the left and with cut rim bowls I can follow the outside even when I cannot see the tool tip.

Posture: Reaching across the lathe on a small bowl I will be erect, Large bowls I would have to lean - bad for my back.

Cutting backwards the chips will be coming my way too.

These trade offs will be different for each person.

Al