Update on 2 inch stretch wrap.......and, something new!

[odie]

I'm not completely satisfied with the performance I'm getting with the 2" flat twine stretch wrap....after several experimental attempts. My intent was to overlay a cloth tape and this doesn't work very well, as it pushes off center the stretch wrap......can't handle the pressure applied very well. Without the cloth tape, and with 4-5+ wraps, it becomes stable enough to support the wheels of the Oneway bowl steady (without the cloth tape).......and, it does conform to uneven bowl profiles.

Bill, I haven't tried any of the delicate surface masking tape yet......but, it's on the list!

Out of curiosity, I tried some plain ol' regular cellophane office tape, and overlaid the cloth tape over that. I let the wheels rotate on this (sanded to 600gt) surface for 10 minutes at 1200 rpm on a 10" partially spalted curly maple bowl......I expected this to fail, but when I applied the Danish Oil over this surface, I found that it worked great....to my surprise! After this test, there was no adhesive from the cellophane tape that was stuck in the pores of the wood surface. This doesn't mean it's an overall solution for every species of wood, or every application, but it did work this time......meaning it's, at the very least, a partial solution that can have applications some of the time.

Thanks to those who understood I wasn't looking to change my basic objectives and/or methods, and gave input that applied to the problems I was attempting to solve.

This isn't over yet.......but, it looks like I've made a discovery that might help!

ko

 

[Douglas Ladendorf]

Odie, it just occurred to me that another thing you could try is the athletic wrap that sticks to itself. That won't be as even a surface but maybe good enough to experiment. The drug store usually carries it and I'm sure it can be had cheaper online.

Doug

 

[odie]

Odie, it just occurred to me that another thing you could try is the athletic wrap that sticks to itself. That won't be as even a surface but maybe good enough to experiment. The drug store usually carries it and I'm sure it can be had cheaper online.

Doug

Good idea, Douglas......thank you. I'm putting this into my mental notebook.

ko

 

[Bill Boehme]

Naphtha is good for removing tape residue and it evaporates completely after you have cleaned away all of the goo. I don't know how it might impact resinous woods like paduak or rosewood.

Another tape that I forgot to mention is a tough stretchy tape that the post office has. I got this from Johannes Michelsen. The tape has a noticeable amount of stretch to conform to odd shaped packages.

 

[Gretch Flo]

Out of curiosity, I tried some plain ol' regular cellophane office tape,
elp!

ko[/QUOTE]

What is that?? I only know "scotch" ( or knock offs) tape. Gretch

 

[odie]

Out of curiosity, I tried some plain ol' regular cellophane office tape,
elp!

ko

What is that?? I only know "scotch" ( or knock offs) tape. Gretch[/QUOTE]

Hi Gretch.......

It's just regular household/office tape sold at Walmart. Sorry my description got you confused there.....

The plastic housing is green, and it says "invisible tape" on it.....sort of cloudy, not clear tape.

later......ko

 

[Shawn Pachlhofer]

I don't recall what you're using the tape for - but I do recall Johannes Michelson saying that he likes the USPS "priority mail" tape from the post office for use in stretching and holding the brims of his hats when he's bending them.

you might give that a shot.

 

[Bill Boehme]

What is that?? I only know "scotch" ( or knock offs) tape. Gretch

Hi Gretch.......

It's just regular household/office tape sold at Walmart. Sorry my description got you confused there.....

The plastic housing is green, and it says "invisible tape" on it.....sort of cloudy, not clear tape.

later......ko

Odie, Scotch Invisible Tape in the green dispenser is not cellophane, it is a much newer type of plastic. The original Scotch tape in a red and yellow plaid dispenser was cellophane. They probably haven't made cellophane tape in fifty years so it was before your time, Gretch. Cellophane tape was high gloss and transparent ... closely related to the celluloid substrate used in camera film, if you remember that. Several things that led to the demise of cellophane tape:

• High gloss on paper was distracting
• it turned orange after a few years
• the adhesive stained the paper
• the tape eventually fell off when the adhesive dried up.

I don't recall what you're using the tape for - but I do recall Johannes Michelson saying that he likes the USPS "priority mail" tape from the post office for use in stretching and holding the brims of his hats when he's bending them.


you might give that a shot.

That is what he used when he made a hat for me at SWAT 2011. The tape has a bit of stretch, doesn't leave a residue, and best of all is free. We had a mutually beneficial agreement. He used my lathe to promote his business and I received a hat in return.

 

[odie]

Odie, Scotch Invisible Tape in the green dispenser is not cellophane, it is a much newer type of plastic. The original Scotch tape in a red and yellow plaid dispenser was cellophane. They probably haven't made cellophane tape in fifty years so it was before your time, Gretch. Cellophane tape was high gloss and transparent ... closely related to the celluloid substrate used in camera film, if you remember that. Several things that led to the demise of cellophane tape:

• High gloss on paper was distracting
• it turned orange after a few years
• the adhesive stained the paper
• the tape eventually fell off when the adhesive dried up.

That is what he used when he made a hat for me at SWAT 2011. The tape has a bit of stretch, doesn't leave a residue, and best of all is free. We had a mutually beneficial agreement. He used my lathe to promote his business and I received a hat in return.

OK, thanks for the correction, Bill.....the tape is what it is. It's not Scotch brand, but a generic brand sold at Walmart. I looked for a manufacturer, and it wasn't there......might be that I removed it.

Picked up some of the "delicate application" masking tape yesterday at Lowes, but haven't experimented with it yet.......

My post office has an announcement in the lobby that states the priority mail tape that was once free, is no longer available......never tried any of it when it was free. Probably too many people using it for things other than what it was intended for......

ko

 

[Bill Boehme]

.... Probably too many people using it for things other than what it was intended for......

Ya think so? Word probably spread pretty fast about free tape. I mailed a priority package a couple weeks ago and they used a different kind of tape to seal the package that was transparent with the Post Office logo on it. The previous tape was red white and blue with the logo ... and probably a warning about using it to shape hat brims.

 

[Gretch Flo]

Odie They probably haven't made cellophane tape in fifty years so it was before your time, Gretch.


Hmmmm-probably is not a true statement!!!!!
Bill-how do you know all this stuff????
Now if you could tell me how to care for my cat with hepatic lipadosis, I'd be grateful. Have been spending 4+ hours a day on is care-runied an afternoon of turning today!!!!!. May be out of the woods, Gretch

 

[Bill Boehme]

Odie They probably haven't made cellophane tape in fifty years so it was before your time, Gretch.

Hmmmm-probably is not a true statement!!!!!
Bill-how do you know all this stuff????
Now if you could tell me how to care for my cat with hepatic lipadosis . . . .

Which part -- 50 years or before your time? They changed the name of cellophane tape in 1961 to Scotch Transparent tape. Their current transparent consumer tapes appear to be something other than cellophane, perhaps acetate. However, I did find that in their Industrial Tapes that they still make a cellophane tape. It is called Scotch 610 Cellophane Tape. You would have to really want it badly to pay $860.00 for a 3/4 inch X 72 yards roll.

So technically they still do make cellophane tape, but the price is a bit too rich for my blood.

I wish that I knew what to do for our furry friends. I am giving my kitty prednisone and insulin because the steroid caused him to become diabetic. He isn't a big fan of the prednisone, but he actually tells me it is time for his insulin and then sits calmly while he gets the injection. I know that sometimes it hurts because he flinches, but he still sits still and doesn't complain.

 

[Gretch Flo]

[QUOTE
I know that sometimes it hurts because he flinches, but he still sits still and doesn't complain.[/QUOTE]

They have very little feeling around the neck (if can be given sub q. )-Dewey doesn't know he's getting them. After all mother cats,lions, dogs , etc transport the little ones by grabbing their nape-protective mechanism I guess. My mother must not have done that as I have sensation there!!!!! Gretch

 

[Sean Boyle]

Odie check this out

Lee Valley
Bundling Tape, 1" x 50'
23K30.23

Not only is this tape strong, it is also reusable since it has no adhesive backing. Slightly stretchy, it sticks only to itself, and when wrapped and overlapped it holds firmly and seals completely until you unwrap it. In addition to bundling cords or wires or wrapping a tool handle, it excels as a quick non-marring clamping material to hold odd shapes while gluing. Since you can write on it, it's a great way to identify antiques or other items that you don't want marred with adhesive.
Made of high-tensile strength polyvinyl chloride (PVC), the tape is unaffected by heat or cold and is UV resistant. Each 1" wide roll is 50' long.

 

[odie]

Odie check this out

Lee Valley
Bundling Tape, 1" x 50'
23K30.23

Not only is this tape strong, it is also reusable since it has no adhesive backing. Slightly stretchy, it sticks only to itself, and when wrapped and overlapped it holds firmly and seals completely until you unwrap it. In addition to bundling cords or wires or wrapping a tool handle, it excels as a quick non-marring clamping material to hold odd shapes while gluing. Since you can write on it, it's a great way to identify antiques or other items that you don't want marred with adhesive.
Made of high-tensile strength polyvinyl chloride (PVC), the tape is unaffected by heat or cold and is UV resistant. Each 1" wide roll is 50' long.

Hi Sean......sorry, I forgot you posted this the other day. This bundling tape is the same as the other tape I just tried out, and it didn't work as well as I had hoped it would. Thanks for the heads up on this. It looks like I am going to need some amount of adhesive for my purposes....in order to prevent any slipping under the bowl steady wheels.

I did try out the delicate surface masking tape a couple days ago, and it removed cleanly after the bowl stead ran over it while doing the interior of a bowl. The only problem I had, was the tape doesn't have any elasticity. I was able to get the tape down by putting a series of short strips around the circumference. This worked, but the ends of the tape were peeling by the time I was done.

ko

 

[Bill Boehme]

I might be wrong, but the problem that you are having could be caused by the wheels on the Oneway steady being too hard. If that is the only thing that you are using the steady for, you could consider using softer wheels. There are some softer inline skate wheels which I presume are for indoor skating rinks. One upon a time I had planned to build a steady rest and have some inline skate wheels. Their hardness is about the same as the soles on my Brooks running shoes. I think that softer wheels might be good for reducing vibration and also would be more gentle on the wood. Just a thought that this rather than tape might be the way to go.

 

[odie]

I might be wrong, but the problem that you are having could be caused by the wheels on the Oneway steady being too hard. If that is the only thing that you are using the steady for, you could consider using softer wheels. There are some softer inline skate wheels which I presume are for indoor skating rinks. One upon a time I had planned to build a steady rest and have some inline skate wheels. Their hardness is about the same as the soles on my Brooks running shoes. I think that softer wheels might be good for reducing vibration and also would be more gentle on the wood. Just a thought that this rather than tape might be the way to go.

That's something I hadn't considered......maybe.....don't know. The wheels seem fairly soft to me, and are the original wheels supplied with the bowl steady. They are modified, however......instead of a round running surface, I've reshaped them to a "V" shape. The wheels run on a pinpoint, rather than a round profile.

ko

 

[Gerald Lawrence]

That's something I hadn't considered......maybe.....don't know. The wheels seem fairly soft to me, and are the original wheels supplied with the bowl steady. They are modified, however......instead of a round running surface, I've reshaped them to a "V" shape. The wheels run on a pinpoint, rather than a round profile.

ko

This may be part of the problem with the adhesive. Since wheel is running on an extremely narrow surface that would intensify the pressure and not spread it out as a flatter surface wheel would. So maybe try new wheels.
By the way what problem did you see that caused you to change the profile and did that solve it?

 

[Bill Boehme]

This may be part of the problem with the adhesive. Since wheel is running on an extremely narrow surface that would intensify the pressure and not spread it out as a flatter surface wheel would. So maybe try new wheels.
By the way what problem did you see that caused you to change the profile and did that solve it?

That is a thought, but I suspect that more often than not the wood itself is a curved surface which means that the contact area will be small. Add to that the fact that the wooden turning and the wheel are both round means that that even if the wheel were wide and ran on a section of wood that wasn't curved end-to-end means that the contact area is still small. If the wheel had some cushion that could reduce the pressure several fold.

He said that the original issue was tape residue down in the pores of the wood. Given the potential for damaged wood fibers from the repeated pounding of the wheels, I wonder if tape residue really is the issue. Odie, if you haven't already done a test to rule out other causes, I would suggest running the wheels on bare wood to see the effect. FWIW, I can't imagine tape providing any meaningful degree of cushioning. Rather than deciding on a fix and trying to force it to work, you might have reached the point of backing up to study the issue for other approaches to a satisfactory solution.

Also, something to consider is that we are working with wood and not metal. Wood has some limitations in how precise it can be finished. It never stops moving, especially if you are thinking in terms of thousandths of an inch.

 

[hockenbery]

That Rocky. Mountain symposium has Glenn Lucas and David Ellsworth.
An opportunity to watch David Turn a natural edge bowl and the see Glenn turn a functional bowl.

I've only seen Glenn turn once and he is down right good!!!!
David I have seen dozens of times and I still learn something every time I see him work.
Two marvelous turners and class individuals.

A couple of options for excellent results.al

 

[Mark Hepburn]

For what it's worth, Al, I've seen them turn and I agree. But Ive seen you too, would put you in that same class.

Regarding the wheels, how about some tire inner tube cut to width and stretched over the workpiece? Just a thought.

 

[hockenbery]

For what it's worth, Al, I've seen them turn and I agree. But Ive seen you too, would put you in that same class. Regarding the wheels, how about some tire inner tube cut to width and stretched over the workpiece? Just a thought.

Mark,

Thanks for the favorable a comparison. Those guys are really good. I'm not in their class but is sure nice to get a compliment.

Regarding the inter tube. Have you tried it? It seems like it could work.
I would want to be sure they would not leave black marks on the wood, and not break a thin bowl getting it on or off

There are wide rubber bands that might do the job however they would break a thin bowl if they had to stretch much.

Al

 

[Mark Hepburn]

No, I have not tried it. But many many years ago I was what you call a handle jobber and sold wood handles out of my van to co-ops and hardware stores and such.

I cut innertubes to make big heavy rubber bands to wrap axe handles or sledge or whatever kind of handle by the dozen for sale. Of course, back then you can go just about any tire shop and get some inner tubes for free. Truth is I don't even know if they're available anymore come to think of it

I'm thinking that it would probably leave some marks on the wood but it would sand out. Huge rubber bands really work well definitely cleaner.

(edited this post. Man, I hate using a mobile device for data entry. Makes me look even more illiterate than I actually am

 

[Bill Boehme]

Rubber bands and inner tubes

I believe what Odie wants is something that has a very uniform thickness which means that even things like creases in thin tape and overlapping joints seem to be a problem as far as eliminating low level vibration is concerned. His ultimate goal if I understand it correctly is to be able to get a sufficiently precise roundness that he would be able to put very fine detail grooves on the surface without any observable variation.

From what I have seen about rubber inner tubes is that thickness uniformity would not be adequate to satisfy his requirement. While I haven't tried inner tube rings, I have some very large rubber bands 3/4" wide and 1/16" thick and I believe that their surface texture and slight variation in thickness would rule them out. In fact I did give the rubber bands a try last year on a hollow form and the problem is that they walked out on me rather quickly no matter how light the wheel pressure. One of the problems that you will encounter with any kind of rubber ring is the same as what happens when a new tire is installed on a bandsaw wheel. They fit very tightly and in the process of stretching them on, the band tension is not uniform all the way around the wheel. This means that the band is stretched more in some places than others and that means that the thickness will vary slightly. On a bandsaw, the solution to making the tension more uniform is to insert a couple polished steel bars (I just used a couple very large #3 Phillips screwdrivers) between the tires and wheel and then work them around the perimeter several times while stretching the tire away from the rim. "They" claim that this works, so that is what I do when I install new tires on my bandsaws. How well it works ... who knows.

One solution that I did last year on a very tall mesquite jar with some exposed bark and voids at the largest diameter was to go to the trouble of building a hard raceway for the steady rest wheels using clear Inlace molded to the surface of the hollow form. This is definitely not something that I would recommend as a normal practice because it was very time consuming, messy, and too costly to be considered as a regular practice because of the amount of Inlace and other materials used.

 

[Mark Hepburn]

On a bandsaw, the solution to making the tension more uniform is to insert a couple polished steel bars (I just used a couple very large #3 Phillips screwdrivers) between the tires and wheel and then work them around the perimeter several times while stretching the tire away from the rim.

Well there you go. Problem solved. Just put on the inner tube and jam a couple screwdrivers to work around the perimeter and presto!

Just kidding of course. The forum is getting kind of quiet and dry lately.

It's quiet...

... it's too quiet.

 

[Bill Boehme]

.... It's quiet...

... it's too quiet.

reep . . . reep . . . . . . re-e-e-e-e-e-e-ep!

 

[Gretch Flo]

Just kidding of course. The forum is getting kind of quiet and dry lately.

It's quiet...

... it's too quiet.

I agree. Time for Odie to stir the pot!!! Gretch

 

[odie]

This may be part of the problem with the adhesive. Since wheel is running on an extremely narrow surface that would intensify the pressure and not spread it out as a flatter surface wheel would. So maybe try new wheels.
By the way what problem did you see that caused you to change the profile and did that solve it?

Hi Gerald......Actually, the V shaped wheels aren't as pointy as can be envisioned. The contact area is.....maybe 1/8th to 3/16ths, or so. This is very similar of a contact area, to what it would be if they were not modified. Compression is minimal, since I only use slight pressure between wheels and wood surface. The main difference is I'm using spacers to track wheels exactly matching each other......so that they both run on the same very narrow path, such as what would be encountered by a very narrow rim edge of a bowl. In the original configuration, the wheels do not run exactly on the same path, because the thickness of the scissor arms mean there is an offset in the tracking between one over the other.

That is a thought, but I suspect that more often than not the wood itself is a curved surface which means that the contact area will be small. Add to that the fact that the wooden turning and the wheel are both round means that that even if the wheel were wide and ran on a section of wood that wasn't curved end-to-end means that the contact area is still small. If the wheel had some cushion that could reduce the pressure several fold.

He said that the original issue was tape residue down in the pores of the wood. Given the potential for damaged wood fibers from the repeated pounding of the wheels, I wonder if tape residue really is the issue. Odie, if you haven't already done a test to rule out other causes, I would suggest running the wheels on bare wood to see the effect. FWIW, I can't imagine tape providing any meaningful degree of cushioning. Rather than deciding on a fix and trying to force it to work, you might have reached the point of backing up to study the issue for other approaches to a satisfactory solution.

Also, something to consider is that we are working with wood and not metal. Wood has some limitations in how precise it can be finished. It never stops moving, especially if you are thinking in terms of thousandths of an inch.

Hello Bill......

Yes, correct......the cloth tape I had been using has an adhesive that compresses into the pores of the wood, and is unacceptable. The tape itself, is what I wish to continue using, but the adhesive is a problem. Without any tape at all, I'm having problems with sanding dust compressing into the pores under the wheels......this is also unacceptable. I've found the cloth tape to increase the dampening effect of the wheels, because it compresses, and makes a "furrow" in the tracking of the wheels. This effect is what I'm attempting to preserve, by using the cloth tape. By using a tape underneath the cloth tape (the delicate use blue tape), I am able to eliminate both problems I've been having. It appears that I'm having some success with eliminating the problems I've been having, but the solution, so far, isn't perfect......it's usable, though.

Also correct......this isn't like machining metal......but, I think it could be assumed you'll agree that as close to geometrical perfect the shape is, the better the details will look to the observer. As I said before, perfection isn't possible, but aesthetic appearance can be improved with the attempt to achieve perfection. There is only one thing that will improve the geometry......and that is to eliminate as much sanding as is possible. The only thing that will eliminate as much sanding as is possible......is to perfect tool handling prior to sanding, and therefore start sanding with 320, or finer grits. This whole thing with the tape and redesigning of the Oneway bowl steady, is part of the equation in achieving that.......

ko

note: For those interested in some things that will improve the performance of the Oneway bowl steady, see post #204 page 21 here:

http://www.aawforum.org/vbforum/sho...hop-and-quot-evolving-shop-quot-photos/page21

I agree. Time for Odie to stir the pot!!! Gretch

Ha, ha!

You know, Gretch.......Sometimes I do get tired of defending my ideas and methods from those who refuse to readily show us the results they are capable of getting. My mind set is to exchange information on these AAW forums......not to argue with people who have a "you're wrong, and I'm right" kind of attitude. :mad:

ko

 

[hockenbery]

QUOTE="odie;108749"] Sometimes I do get tired of defending my ideas and methods from those who refuse to readily show us the results they are capable of getting. My mind set is to exchange information on these AAW forums......not to argue with people who have a "you're wrong, and I'm right" kind of attitude. :mad: ko[/QUOTE]

Kelly,
We all come to this forum with various goals of learning and sharing our woodturning experiences. We all have achieved different levels of success with different techniques. Any technique that is safe and produces repeatable good results is an ok technique. That does not mean it is one of the better techniques for others to adopt. It could be.
You began a thread because the lathe steady was giving you bad results. Your immediate goal was to find a fix for the lathe steady. A lathe steady is a useful tools in many situations. If you get better results with a lathe steady no one is saying it is wrong for you to use it.

What people are saying is that most of us do not use a lathe steady on medium to small size bowls because we get good results without it and using one will mar the surface. The problem you are experiencing.

Many of us have seen the best bowl turners in the world use gouges to complete a flawless bowl in a 90 minute demo period explaining their process.
You have developed a style of turning that suites you and it's working well.
Can you improve? absolutely! We all can!

One of the best things any turner can do is to watch other turners in person.
The demonstrators at the big symposiums spend a good bit of time picking the brains of the participants and watching a demo or too.
They are still learning.

Have fun
Work safely,
Al

 

[odie]

Kelly,
We all come to this forum with various goals of learning and sharing our woodturning experiences. We all have achieved different levels of success with different techniques. Any technique that is safe and produces repeatable good results is an ok technique. That does not mean it is one of the better techniques for others to adopt. It could be.
You began a thread because the lathe steady was giving you bad results. Your immediate goal was to find a fix for the lathe steady. A lathe steady is a useful tools in many situations. If you get better results with a lathe steady no one is saying it is wrong for you to use it.

What people are saying is that most of us do not use a lathe steady on medium to small size bowls because we get good results without it and using one will mar the surface. The problem you are experiencing.

Many of us have seen the best bowl turners in the world use gouges to complete a flawless bowl in a 90 minute demo period explaining their process.
You have developed a style of turning that suites you and it's working well.
Can you improve? absolutely! We all can!

One of the best things any turner can do is to watch other turners in person.
The demonstrators at the big symposiums spend a good bit of time picking the brains of the participants and watching a demo or too.
They are still learning.

Have fun
Work safely,
Al

That's fine, Al.......

Does this mean I'm not going to get any more PM's from you with your negative critiques/evaluation of my work?

ko

 

[hockenbery]

Kelly,

I never meant to be negative about your work.
Rather I have encouraged you to attend symposiums and do self critiques of your work.

You are rightfully proud of your work and you should be.

What I encourage you and all woodturners to do is interact with other woodturners.
Put turnings in an instant gallery like the Rocky Mountain symposium.
Attend some demonstrations at a symposium.
Regardless of skill, any turner will get a better appreciation of both accomplishments and your skills by attending a sympsoium.


I also offered to send you an unsanded bowl
Al

 

[Bill Boehme]

Odie,

You are a very valuable contributor to this forum because you often start new threads that pose the type of questions that are out of the ordinary typical question and as a result, your threads get people thinking or as Gretch phrased it, "stir the pot". That is how ideas get shared. If we all thought the same way then there wouldn't be any need to share ideas, but each of us has something unique to bring to the table. And, naturally each of us feels somewhat passionate about our own ideas. At the same time, we are curious creatures who want to see what other the guys and gals are doing to see if we can pick their brains and "steal" some of their ideas.

To borrow from one of your analogies, Odie, you might sometimes feel like a lone wolf in danger of being trampled by the herd, but actually the herd is just inviting you to join them at the watering hole.

 

[Mark Hepburn]

I'll second what you said, Bill.

It's the difference of opinions that makes discussion valuable. Don't need a forum full of sheep that all agree with one another.

But wait a minute, I'm doing just that right now.

Bill, I couldn't disagree more!!

 

[Gretch Flo]

Hi Ger
Ha, ha!

You know, Gretch.......Sometimes I do get tired of defending my ideas and methods from those who refuse to readily show us the results they are capable of getting. My mind set is to exchange information on these AAW forums......not to argue with people who have a "you're wrong, and I'm right" kind of attitude. :mad:

ko

Sometimes. "you got to know when to hold"em". when to fold "em". I think about this song when I am struggling with putting a tough fracture together. Do I want to be proud of the xray that every one sees, or proud that I stopped with perfection so that I didn't get into further problems, like infection with tissues exposed to more air (bacteria in air),, more damage to the soft tissues leading to joint stiffness etc and less cost to a pet owner I think I am an excellent clinician, but not an excellent technician in surgery as I have the patient and owner at "heart" . I think I have a good grasp of when to "fold em".
In some of the discussions in the last few years in this forum , there is a time to "fold em", and not whip a "dead horse". Off the podium, Gretch