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Help me compare the Powermatic 3520B vrs the Robust Liberty

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I'm about to upgrade from a Delta 46-460 midi lathe to a full size lathe. And what I expect will be my last wood lathe. I've turned a little on a 3520B, and really like it. But in looking over the full sized lathes, I'm also considering a Robust Liberty. I read a thread on another forum comparing the 3520B to the American Beauty, but that was so far apart in both size and cost, it seemed a little unrealistic to me. Although the OP in that thread was wanting a justification on the price difference, not which was better.

Here are my requirements:

Sliding headstock so I can stand at the end of the lathe. (This eliminates the Robust Sweet 16)
2 hp 220.
Good warranty
Ability to do platters up to 30"
16" minimum throw
35" bed is about all I have room for.

Here's what I like about the PM:
5 year warranty (Apparently it covers everything including the motor and inverter)
20" Throw. Even if I never use that much, it's available.
The 18" extension with the extended tool rest. I don't have the room to leave this on permanently, so I'll be taking it off when not in use.
Lots of positive feedback.

Here's what I like about the Liberty:
7 year Warranty (although it's only 1 year on the motor and inverter)
Swing away tailstock that's also a 6" extension that I can leave on
Moveable controls
Better Spindle lock that cuts power
Made in America

Almost everything in the specs about the powermatic is better:
Longer tailstock spindle travel
20" Throw
heavier by about 150 lbs
Apparently a better motor and inverter warranty and great service reputation
And it cost less . . . . . . and will go on sale at least a few times a year to save even more.

A few things better about the Liberty:
3 spindle bearings vrs 1 for the PM (I think)
tapered headstock
Stainless ways. (Although the weight and vibration dampening of cast iron may be a bigger seller)
Made in America - Which to me means more and more everyday.
Smaller company (Less red-tape) if I need service. And from what I can find, service is second to none.

There are no local dealers of either machine. The closest is about 120 miles for the powermatic, and 350 miles for the Robust. And there is no Liberty to see at the closest Robust dealer.

So, what am I missing. I'd like to hear from a Liberty owner if possible, but probably any Robust owner can give me in-site.
 
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I would say that for comparison purposes, the PM3520 is more equivalent to an AB than a Liberty due to the "throw" on each

you can make your own set of "moveable controls" for your PM if you wish.
 
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I spent several days turning on a Oneway 2436 (although the owner is well over 6' tall, and I'm barely 5'7", so we had to cobble up things for me to stand on); a Powermatic 3520; and a day on a Robust AB. The Robusts were not on my radar screen until I got a raise recently.

For me, the Robust AB has better ergonomics than the Powermatic 3520. The belt is easier to change; the spindle lock does not require field modifications (or the add-on that Powermatic now gives away for the lock switch). The access to get behind your work (back side of bowl after reversing) is definitely better. Tilt-away headstock as-manufactured, rather than a homemade add-on. Having Robust give you the leg length you want, rather than having to do field modifications on the Powermatic legs. Better clamp on the toolrest post. Stainless ways.

So, the question would be: Are the improved ergonomics (and it's admittedly small improvements in ergonomics; the Powermatic has very good ergonomics) sufficient to justify the additional expense? For me, given an expected 15 years (25+ with good luck with my genes and environment) of use, it was. (Without the raise, I would have regretfully said, I'll save the $ and put it towards a turning class with a professional--I'm still intending to do that, btw).

The cost-benefit calculation for you would be your own. Find someone with a Robust nearby (just e-mail Robust and ask them). There were no Robust dealers within 400 miles of where I live, but there was someone with a Robust AB about 50 miles away, who very graciously let me (and two friends) turn on his machine.

Hope that helps!
 

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I would also point out that
A 17" outboard on a ONEWAY lathe or an outboard on a general 260 lets you stand in front of the lathe.
Just saying you can have a fixed bed lathe with a short bed stand in front on one end and between centers set up on the other.

To use the short bed side I have to walk 3 feet and turn the switch to reverse.


:). You may find it more convenient remove the tailstock, to walk around the lathe, unlock the headstock., slide it into position and lock the headstock. :)

The powermatics and robusts are fine machines that will sever well.
Owners of these machine often perpetuate the myth that the sliding headstock is the only way to have a stand in front experience.

You said you wanted that lathe you could stand in front of. I think your logic that eliminated ONEWAY and general was a bit flawed.
You might want to take a hard look at the ONEWAY 1640.

anyone going to the AAW symposium in Pittsburgh should go watch Christian Burchard hollow.
He will stand in front of the the outboard side of the ONEWAY to hollow.

Al
 
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Thanks for the replies.

The throw of the PM is almost right between the 2 Robust lathes. In fact it's an inch closer to the Liberty. And being within months of being 60, and having back surgery twice, I think 20" + bowls are probably not going to happen. So the AB is really not a choice to me. I can't find a reason to spend the extra money.

I agree that the ergonomics of the Robust are better. And there is the added benefit of not having to change the belt at all on the Liberty.

My biggest complaint about the oneway is the spindle size. But I also think the 40" bed is a bit bigger than what I have room for. The extension on the PM would have to be removed after turning, or my wife would have to park outside. And you know the old saying "If Mom's not happy, nobody's happy. However, I guess I should at least give it a better look.

I should also point out that I can order it next month, and have it delivered to Waco for SWAT. That way I don't have to pay freight, and I get a free motor upgrade. That saves me some money (sort of).

EDIT: After looking at the Oneway site, it says the standard length is 60" without the extension. I can't find the specs on the extension, but that would be too big for sure. So I'd be back to taking it off after use. But I'd use the end of the lathe feature a lot without having to use the extension on the PM. The only time I'd use the extension is for platters. Where as I could use the sliding headstock feature for hollowing a Christmas ornament. I wouldn't bother to set up the oneway for something like that, so I'd be leaning over the lathe on anything small.
 
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Bill Boehme

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People tend to be biased towards whatever lathe they own so take my comments with that in mind:

I have the Robust American Beauty. Robust lathes are custom built to order so as far as I know you won't find any on display at a dealer. There are a number of options for the AB (I don't know about the Liberty) and if you visit the Robust website you can get the full details. I have most of the options on my lathe including the outboard tool rest and steady rest, both of which are very heavy duty.

The often heard story about cast iron "absorbing" vibrations better than steel doesn't hold water. It can't be acoustic vibrations -- just Google "Cast Iron Bells". The cost of making major lathe components from cast iron is much less than the cost of machining and welding steel components. A disadvantage of the type of iron, known as gray iron, used in imported Asian machines is that it is quite brittle and subject to many problems during the pour such as voids, cracks, and internal stresses. Most of the time this isn't a problem, but these castings are not very forgiving if subjected to shock loads. Our club had a Powermatic 3520B that traveled to and from the meeting location as well as to the SWAT symposium, but after a few years a couple very large cracks developed in one of the legs so it was auctioned off and we bought a smaller Jet. Powermatic was kind enough to loan a 3520B to the SWAT symposium, but unfortunately due to rough handling during shipment the headstock was cracked and it couldn't be used. The good news was that somebody got a great deal on it and it was covered under warranty so he got a new headstock.

Structurally, a well built steel bed can be made more rigid than a cast iron bed. If you are thinking about the lathe "walking" due to an unbalanced load, it doesn't matter whether it is iron or steel. The headstock, toolrest base (AKA banjo), and tailstock of the Robust lathes are American made castings of very high quality -- definitely not the rough castings typically seen on imported stuff.

On my lathe, the motor is a US made Leeson industrial motor. US made motors are much better quality construction and materials than imported Asian motors that I have seen (not including Japan and Korea). The motor on the Liberty may be a different US made brand. The inverter on my lathe is a Toshiba sensorless vector type. The Liberty also uses a sensorless vector inverter. I have found it to provides far smoother control of speed than the old technology volts-per-Hertz drive on the Powermatic when turning at very low RPM and moderate torque. The Powermatic is much easier to stall at low speeds.

Other very nice features include:
  • adjustable height of the legs
  • tilt away tailstock
  • ON-OFF-SPEED control on a pendant
  • spindle lock
  • indexing

There are also a number of options that are available.

I have turned a lot on the Powermatic 3520 lathe and it is a fine machine, but you asked specifically for feedback about Robust. When I was given the green light to choose any lathe that I wanted, I considered choosing Powermatic or ... choosing Beauty because I like her more ... and I do.
 
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hockenbery

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Bob,

I have turned a couple hundred hours on powermatics
Only a few minutes on the Liberty, 10 hours on the Robust
20 hours on a ONEWAY 1640

Thousand of hours on ONEWAY 2436.

At this point my favorite lathe would be the ONEWAY 2416 with a 17" outboard extension.

I suggest you compare the ONEWAY 1640, Liberty, and the powermatic.
The first two will end up costing you $5-6k depending on options and shipping.
Powermatic is around $4k

I love to demo on the powermatic but I will probably never own one because of the blocky headstock which limits turning from the headstock side when shaping a hollow form. I'm demos I just when the headstock get in my way I just make a joke about it and move on. M mthe ONEWAY and Robust have plenty of clearance.

I actually like the Powermatic spring loaded spindle lock. It is quick and easy to use.
On the ONEWAY and the Robust you have to lock and then unlock the spindle. With the powermatic it locks while you are unthreading/threading a chuck or face plate and then unlocks itself.
I do not do any operations with the spindle locked.

The powermatic does not have adjustable legs, a useable Index Wheel, remote switch.

Regarding banjos. ONEWAY the best in the industry, Robust is fine, powermatic is useable but hard to move and it does not lock the post very well I always tap the lock,handle with the tool handle. The robust locks the tool post well it just requires an extra opening turn to move the locking mechanism out of the tool post hole.
The locking handle can get in the way sometimes requiring a repositioning. The ONEWAY locking handle has 6 positions you can choose for the locked position and it pivots out of the way when not in use so it never hit the tool handle.


Regarding the tailstock I have the ONEWAY swinger and use the jamieson hollowing system the tailstock is never in the way and I don't have to lean over to lift it. The Robust shock assist is easy to lift and you get a short bed extension.

To me the belt change on all three is about the same.
Non come close to the change system on the net jet 1221vs

I use the index wheel and turn from headstock side a lot which eliminates the powermatic for me.
I learned to tap the tool post lock with the tool handle on my woodfast which has a worse lock than the powermatic. once you learn it is just automatic and the tap locks it securely.

If I wanted a 1)" lathe,
I would be deciding between the ONEWAY 1640 with the bed extension and extract banjo and the Liberty.

If you need to change the height every day the robust height change is a 2-5?minute operation. The ONEWAY height change is 20-30 minutes 12 bolts have to come and goes back in new holes.

Hope some of this rambling helps.
Al
 

hockenbery

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Bob you posted whist I was typing.
Better check the size on the liberty and make a floor plan sketch if space is an issue.
Working off the end you will need 3 feet for yourself (4 is better) + a foot for the tilt-away on the end and two feet on the side it tilts.
The motor hangs off the end about a foot when you use the whole bed.

Al
 
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Not to throw more confusion into the mix--but are you also considering the Nova and the Robust Sweet 16?

Granted, the Sweet 16 doesn't have a sliding headstock, so positioning yourself for hollowing can be a bit more difficult.

The Nova DVR/XP on a heavy bench will be just as heavy as the other lathes under consideration. The DVR2024 will have the 20" bowl (30+" outboard) as the others you are considering. One of our club members has a DVR/XP, and has done mutant-sized platters. (I only aspire to half-mutant platters). I don't particularly like the Nova's control panel, but my tastes are different than others' tastes.
 
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Not to throw more confusion into the mix--but are you also considering the Nova and the Robust Sweet 16?

Granted, the Sweet 16 doesn't have a sliding headstock, so positioning yourself for hollowing can be a bit more difficult.

The Nova DVR/XP on a heavy bench will be just as heavy as the other lathes under consideration. The DVR2024 will have the 20" bowl (30+" outboard) as the others you are considering. One of our club members has a DVR/XP, and has done mutant-sized platters. (I only aspire to half-mutant platters). I don't particularly like the Nova's control panel, but my tastes are different than others' tastes.
I do like the Sweet 16. If it had a sliding headstock, it would be the perfect lathe IMHO. At times I do think about the Sweet 16 as a possibility. I'm OK with the Nova controls, but I see no way to do a mod for moveable controls like the PM. Their service is probably OK, but isn't up to the PM level. Plus the warranty is only 1 or 2 years. I haven't checked close enough to know for sure.

Bob you posted whist I was typing.
Better check the size on the liberty and make a floor plan sketch if space is an issue.
Working off the end you will need 3 feet for yourself (4 is better) + a foot for the tilt-away on the end and two feet on the side it tilts.
The motor hangs off the end about a foot when you use the whole bed.

Al
My garage is my shop. To use my new lathe, I'll 1st have to move my table saw, then my bandsaw. Both are on mobil bases, so it isn't too bad. So I'll have room at the end of the lathe once those tools are moved. Believe me, I've done a lot of measuring. I have room for the Liberty with the tile away option. Overall length is about 65", so this works. In fact it has the smallest overall footprint of anything I'm considering except the short version Sweet 16. But to be fair, I haven't looked at the Oneway 2016 with extension. But I still come back to the headstock being an issue. Plus the way I'm planning the layout, it's easier for me to work at the end of the PM or Robust. But I haven't done a layout with the Oneway 2016 lathe in mind.
 
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I don't know if you have looked at all of the information on the Robust site for the Liberty lathe, but here is a video that does a good job of showing its features: Robust Liberty Lathe video
I had to show my wife this. She said "You've spent more time watching YouTube lathe videos than I've spent watching Dirty Dancing." She may be right. I do tend to do a lot of studying on major purchases. Especially toys.:rolleyes:

But to answer your question, I've watched all the Robust video's more than once. I've also contacted Robust about seeing a Liberty in person. There is nothing close to me. They are checking on me meeting a guy In Austin that has a Sweet 16. I have to be down that way next week, and I still haven't heard back from them. The Dallas dealer is out of town for the next few weeks, or I'd stop by his shop to see the AB.
 

Bill Boehme

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I had to show my wife this. She said "You've spent more time watching YouTube lathe videos than I've spent watching Dirty Dancing." She may be right. I do tend to do a lot of studying on major purchases. Especially toys.:rolleyes:

But to answer your question, I've watched all the Robust video's more than once. I've also contacted Robust about seeing a Liberty in person. There is nothing close to me. They are checking on me meeting a guy In Austin that has a Sweet 16. I have to be down that way next week, and I still haven't heard back from them. The Dallas dealer is out of town for the next few weeks, or I'd stop by his shop to see the AB.

Well, tell her that you can dance with the lathe and you can get dirty while doing it -- especially if it is wet wood. :rolleyes:

If you live in or near the DFW metroplex and want to see my Robust AB send me a PM. I park my lathe in the garage, but my "shop" is the Great Outdoors since there isn't enough room in the garage to do any serious turning and cleaning things up is a lot easier when done outdoors. The trouble is that the roof of my "shop" has been leaking a lot lately which makes it difficult to do much turning. I think that the rain is supposed to continue for several more days. Hopefully, we will get a few sunny days after that. I had an empty five gallon bucket in the back yard sitting in the open. I knew that we had a lot of rain, but was surprised when I saw yesterday that it was completely full. That's a lot of rain.
 
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The tilt away tailstock is worth it's weight it gold. I vote robust.

Well, if I get one, maybe you can help me set it up.:p Of course it may involve a road trip to go get it.



On another note, Deb and Brent from Robust have sent me the contact information of a customer with a Sweet 16 for me to look at. I don't know if I'll be able to work it in on my trip, but I just wanted to point out that they were very responsive. I called on Friday, and I received the information this morning. Bill is also a possibility. It will depend on my schedule, but hopefully I'll a chance to see both lathes on this trip.

As I was editing this post, I got a call from Brent English to make sure I received their e-mail. He also answered a few questions I had specific to the Sweet 16. It probably won't change my mind, but it did confirm some of my thoughts on that lathe which are all positives.
 
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I recently bought a Liberty and it's everything I need. The base is easily adjusted if need be, however since Brent set it up it hasn't moved. There are no weights under it like I had on my Jet so cleaning up is much easier and stability is fantastic. Access to locking, changing the belt range, and bottom side of the chuck are excellent. Compared to the Jet 1642 these features are a huge improvement. It's also very easy to move to the other side of the lathe if need be while hollowing.

The two HP motor is more than adequate although I have stalled it out while coring some really heavy bowls.

The bottom line is I'm no spring chicken and turning anything over 15 inches in diameter is a problem for me to get on the lathe myself. No use for a bigger throw.

Love the tilt away, that 1642 tail stock got heavy.

While I don't see any Liberty's on the resale market I suspect they'd hold their value very well.

Wish you were closer, I'd be more than happy to let you try mine out.

Dave Fritz
 
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On another note, Deb and Brent from Robust have sent me the contact information of a customer with a Sweet 16 for me to look at. I don't know if I'll be able to work it in on my trip, but I just wanted to point out that they were very responsive. I called on Friday, and I received the information this morning. Bill is also a possibility. It will depend on my schedule, but hopefully I'll a chance to see both lathes on this trip.

As I was editing this post, I got a call from Brent English to make sure I received their e-mail. He also answered a few questions I had specific to the Sweet 16. It probably won't change my mind, but it did confirm some of my thoughts on that lathe which are all positives.

I don't own a Robust but I can vouch for their customer support. I bought one of their now very popular tool rests for my Oneway 1018 a few years ago and found out I didn't really like its geometry. I talked to Brent at the next SWAT symposium and he custom made one for me without extra charge. I know other Oneway owners say that Oneway's customer support was good too but my personal experience has been less than satisfactory which is extra disappointing because I am a loyal customer that owns 2 Oneway lathes.
 
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Go Robust!

Hi Bob - I have owned a Sweet 16 Long Bed since 2010 and have never regretted the purchase for a second.

I think that you could easily "turn off the end" of a Sweet 16 short bed, then when you need a longer bed you can move the "gap" to the end, or if you really need 32" of swing you've got it. I've used mine in all three configurations and like the versatility.

I replaced a cast iron lathe with an 18" swing. I bought it new, it's electronics blew-up 1 year and 4 days after receipt. It had a one year warrantee, I had to fix it on my dime. It was made by a Chinese factory that I've been told makes most of the cast iron lathes components.

The Robust Sweet 16 is so much nicer to use, here are some of the differences between that cast iron unit and the Sweet 16:
- That cast iron bed ALWAYS rusted up and was weekly maintenance to keep things "sliding", I've waxed the stainless ways on the Robust once in since 2010.
- The spindle on the cast iron unit was much softer than the Robust, and on the Robust the set screws in a chuck actually line up with the flat that was made for the set screws to land on.
- I don't have to stand on a board for the lathe to be at the correct height.
- The Robust banjo and tailstock locks work easily, on the cast iron unit I'd use a "cheater pipe" or a dead blow hammer to lock it down.
- The tool rest lockdown stripped out on the cast iron unit after two months, the Robust tool-rest lockdown is the best I've used.
- I had to put a shim under one of the feet on the cast iron lathe to keep it from moving, the Robust legs are adjustable.
- The Robust runs so quietly and smooth, not so much with the cast iron unit (especially after it blew up:)).
- You can't beat Robust's service.

It sounds like you are tight on space, but you may want to consider keeping your small lathe, they come in very handy.

Happy Turning
Tom
 
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Well, I turned on a PM 3520A for about 7 or 8 years before I got my Beauty. I now have a Liberty as well. So...

The headstock clearance was never an issue for me. The chuck gave me all the clearance I needed. However, I don't twice turn my bowls. The PM did have a notch in the headstock to help with that. Extended jaws could help with hollow forms, but extending off the headstock farther can add to vibration issues. One difference, if you should ever need to replace the headstock bearings, the spindle unbolts from the Robust and Oneway lathes, but not from the PM.

Stainless vs cast lathes: Well for sure, they make different noises when turning. There are claims of 'harmonic' vibrations, but I haven't noticed them. Perhaps a more valid concern/argument could be the difference in vibration levels between fixed and sliding headstocks. Not sure about that one because I have almost always had a sliding headstock. Those that own the Vicmark will argue for the fixed headstock. If I had one, I would turn bowls on the outboard end, never over the bed. It is just not comfortable for me.

Important to me is horse power. I wanted 3 hp, which is why I went with the Beauty. The 3520 doesn't have that option. I have been pleasantly surprised by the power in the Liberty. It had a 'vector drive' motor, which I don't understand, but it keeps its torque very well when I am making it sweat. As much or more so than the PM did. Looking at them side by side, the Liberty looks smaller, but had all of the torque. For some reason, I don't think any one makes a 5 hp motor powered wood lathe...

The banjo on the Robust is far better than the PM. The locking wedges give it a lot of holding power. I have very limited experience with the Oneway, but their handle is on kind of a hinge so you can flip it to one side or the other. I don't understand why no one has made a handle like on the vices where the handle is loose in a hole, and you can push it right or left, or up or down to get it out of the way. I have learned with my Liberty to always push the banjo locking lever towards the headstock. Otherwise it can be in the way of the tool rest lever.

If you ever have problems with your lathe, if you own the Robust, you talk to the guy who makes them, not some tech who has to look things up in a manual.

The tilt away mechanism is really nice on the Robust. I can't seem to keep the tiny bed on it lined up perfectly with the lathe bed, so I don't consider it to be accurate enough to leave the tailstock on it while turning. Some times I will leave it half way on the main bed, and half way on the tilt away.

You can add sand bags to the Liberty to make it heavier.

Do you need more throw? Well, probably not. It is nice to turn huge bowls, but anything over about 14 inch diameter is a specialty market, and difficult to move unless you have a lot of clients that want them...

Made in the USA!

robo hippy
 

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This thread has sort of shifted to a discussion of the Robust company.

Brent English is a wonderful guy to know and talk to. His tool rests are superb, his lathes are terrific.

Brent built a network of sales representatives that is is spectacular.


Have fun,
Al
 
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Interesting Bill,

There is a thing called bell metal which is used primarily for bells. As you pointed out casting Iron is cheaper than casting steel. Also bell metal is different than the make up of cast iron as equipment manufacturers use. Look under other metals http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bellfounding and you will notice they tried steel on bells but it did not hold up.

Now when we talk of iron versus steel in equipment it is totally different than your reference. If you read metallurgists and steel?iron fabricators reports they support the anti dampening superiority of iron over steel. Depending on the iron mixture the dampening is from 2 times to 6 times better than steel. Now how much that really plays on lathe quality I personally don't feel all that much. Robo who owns a Robust and has mentioned several times his sounds different but doesn't notice much of a performance difference. You're responses are not generally misleading, Bill, but please stick with the facts. I am sure Robusts sales aren't going to be hurt by the truth. They make fine equipment so distorting the facts are not needed. In both iron and steel there are trade offs good and bad.

I agree with Al this has turned into another Robust thread. I think this is due to the Robust being the current designer cool kid lathe. That is fine since I believe they make good equipment but lets not forget there are plenty of good lathes on the market. I think for the price range the OP is looking at and the extras he would get I personally think the 3520b would be a better choice for his application/description. More swing and if I am not mistaking it is heavier than the liberty.

Just my worthless 2c
 
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Gee Whiz guys, I'm starting to blush. I think most people like what they have and what they are used too, unless they are looking for something better. Then they come to places like this for good input. It's like my truck, I drive a diesel Chevy, made in Fort Wayne Indiana. Love it. Recommend it highly. Doug Thompson has one of the new aluminum Fords. Loves it. Recommends it highly. Both good trucks, but mine fits my needs and Doug's fits his. In regards to the kind words about us, many thanks. We're not perfect but we try.

Regards, Brent at Robust
 
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Now when we talk of iron versus steel in equipment it is totally different than your reference.
The debate of iron vs steel seems to be an endless one, but also one that often ignores a critical factor. Just comparing the characteristics of the materials doesn't acknowledge the contribution that design makes in the transmission of vibration. As I understand it, a properly designed weldment adds vibration dampening on its own. I'm certainly not going to pretend to understand all the engineering involved, but I can appreciate that the 21st century has brought a few new wrinkles to how we design mechanical equipment and what they're made from.

As Robo alluded to, the only real difference is perhaps the sounds they make while turning. Some people prefer a true feather bed to a temperpedic. It's 'horses for courses' as far as I can see, but then I'm probably the only one who sees a steampunk solution when I look at a lathe that's got the mass of a locomotive and the ergonomics to match.
 

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The debate of iron vs steel seems to be an endless one, but also one that often ignores a critical factor. Just comparing the characteristics of the materials doesn't acknowledge the contribution that design makes in the transmission of vibration. As I understand it, a properly designed weldment adds vibration dampening on its own. I'm certainly not going to pretend to understand all the engineering involved, but I can appreciate that the 21st century has brought a few new wrinkles to how we design mechanical equipment and what they're made from....

That is very true. Things like designing a structure, whether a bridge or a machine casting where it can be broken up into non-harmonically related sizes and spacings are by far and away the most effective way of damping all sorts of resonances. As you say, the material property is basically a non-player in this design process. Materials are chosen for other reasons such as cost of production and suitability for the application and operating environment. Sand casting is used a lot machines because of low cost and not anything to do with vibration reduction. The main vibration issue with woodturning lathes is the whole lathe shaking from turning heavy unbalanced loads.
 
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Well, I may have a chance to see all 3 Robust lathes in the next few days. The exception to the lineup is the Independence. This will at least give me the chance to look at a few Robust lathes in person. My priority is the Liberty, and it's located in the town where I'm staying. What are the chances of that happening?

I want to thank everyone who's posted their experiences and thoughts on the two lathes I'm considering. It's been very helpful. It may have come off as a Robust discussion, but that's ok because it's the only product line I'm considering that I haven't actually seen and touched. Ok, I haven't seen a Oneway either, but I've pretty much eliminated them.

I just went back an reread my 1st post. Nothing has changed from what I said I was looking for.

Here are some things I've considered more in detail since I started this thread.

If the weight difference between between the Liberty and the PM is a difference maker, I can't find anything to support that. No Sweet 16 owners or Liberty owners have complained about a lack of weight, or more vibrations. There have been a few post and videos that mentioned a different sound when turning. But I can't see that as being a problem.

I talked to a friend today who has a 3520b, and he said he's never even noticed the headstock affecting his turning. But he doesn't twice turn bowls either, so maybe it might be a problem on the 2nd turning. I also haven't heard any PM owners complain that the headstock was in their way doing anything. Is the tapered headstock better? Probably, but it's basically a non-issue in my mind.

The difference in the iron used for casting does appear to better in the Robust. But how much better does it need to be for a hobby lathe? While I like turning as a hobby, I can't see moving my lathe around, or subjecting it to a ton of heavy turning. I think either lathe will do what I want, and do for as long as I want.

I do think from what I've read, and been told that the motor and inverter are superior in the Robust lathe. This was even brought up by my friend who owns the PM.

And I've saved the best for last. My wife asked if the PM came in any other color. :rolleyes:

I am looking forward to seeing a few Robust in person. I'll report back after my trip.

Thanks again for all the responses.
 
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Damping of cast iron

Speaking as a former designer of instruments (machine instruments, not musical instruments)--the reason we like cast iron is not the internal damping, even though it's there. We like it because it's economical to heat treat and age for dimensional stability. It's also soft enough to hand-scrape. Back in the middle of the last century, you could still get machines, with structures of cast iron, hand-scraped so the machine was square and straight in the part-per-million range. If you look at the ways on modern metal-cutting machines (big lathes, mills, etc.), you'll notice a fish-scale pattern. This is a modern way of trying to make things look hand-scraped.

While the internal damping of cast iron is better than steel, most of the damping in a machine are in the joints, bearings, or designed-in damping components.

Bearing steels (as in ball-bearing steels, such as the 52100 family) can also be stabilized, but the heat treatment required to do so is not as economical as cast iron. (Heck, in the 1980's, semiconductor manufacturing equipment had cast iron structures that were cast, then, left outside over a summer/winter cycle to age, then, final-machined to size--much like you folks who turn green wood, let dry, then turn again).

For woodturners, where our typical tolerances are in the part-per-thousand level, not a big deal.

Hy
 

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Speaking as a former designer of instruments (machine instruments, not musical instruments)--the reason we like cast iron is not the internal damping, even though it's there. We like it because it's economical to heat treat and age for dimensional stability. It's also soft enough to hand-scrape. Back in the middle of the last century, you could still get machines, with structures of cast iron, hand-scraped so the machine was square and straight in the part-per-million range. If you look at the ways on modern metal-cutting machines (big lathes, mills, etc.), you'll notice a fish-scale pattern. This is a modern way of trying to make things look hand-scraped.

While the internal damping of cast iron is better than steel, most of the damping in a machine are in the joints, bearings, or designed-in damping components.

Bearing steels (as in ball-bearing steels, such as the 52100 family) can also be stabilized, but the heat treatment required to do so is not as economical as cast iron. (Heck, in the 1980's, semiconductor manufacturing equipment had cast iron structures that were cast, then, left outside over a summer/winter cycle to age, then, final-machined to size--much like you folks who turn green wood, let dry, then turn again).

For woodturners, where our typical tolerances are in the part-per-thousand level, not a big deal.

Hy

Another thing that we did in aerospace castings was "shot peening" to relieve casting stresses before final machining. Leaving high tech parts out in the weather for a year didn't seem too attractive for some strange reason. :rolleyes:
 

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Speaking as a former designer of instruments (machine instruments, not musical instruments)--the reason we like cast iron is not the internal damping, even though it's there. We like it because it's economical to heat treat and age for dimensional stability. It's also soft enough to hand-scrape. Back in the middle of the last century, you could still get machines, with structures of cast iron, hand-scraped so the machine was square and straight in the part-per-million range. If you look at the ways on modern metal-cutting machines (big lathes, mills, etc.), you'll notice a fish-scale pattern. This is a modern way of trying to make things look hand-scraped.

While the internal damping of cast iron is better than steel, most of the damping in a machine are in the joints, bearings, or designed-in damping components.

Bearing steels (as in ball-bearing steels, such as the 52100 family) can also be stabilized, but the heat treatment required to do so is not as economical as cast iron. (Heck, in the 1980's, semiconductor manufacturing equipment had cast iron structures that were cast, then, left outside over a summer/winter cycle to age, then, final-machined to size--much like you folks who turn green wood, let dry, then turn again).

For woodturners, where our typical tolerances are in the part-per-thousand level, not a big deal.

Hy

Another thing that we did in aerospace castings was "shot peening" to relieve casting stresses before final machining. Leaving high tech parts out in the weather for a year didn't seem too attractive for some strange reason. :rolleyes:
 

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I talked to a friend today who has a 3520b, and he said he's never even noticed the headstock affecting his turning. But he doesn't twice turn bowls either, so maybe it might be a problem on the 2nd turning. I also haven't heard any PM owners complain that the headstock was in their way doing anything. Is the tapered headstock better? Probably, but it's basically a non-issue in my mind.
I would guess that most 75-80% of turners don't turn much on the headstock side of the work.
It is a combination of turning style and shape of the work. I can't think of anything that cannot be turned on the powermatic.
You just can't make some cuts on some objects.

I begin almost all bowls and hollow forms between centers.
I mount the opening to be of the hollow form on the spur in the headstock.
On a Oneway I can work close to final surface of the top easily with bevel riding cuts.
The powermatic hit the tool preventing bevel riding cuts near the opening.

I have turned dozens of hollow forms between centers on the powermatic.
I have to compensate by cutting against the grain or scraping and do a little more turning when the form is on a faceplate or in a chuck.

As I take more wood off near the opening I am changing the shape and then have to remove wood from other parts of the form to get the shape.
So I end up doing more shaping once it is reversed.

I finish turn the outside of green natural edge bowls from the tailstock side using a pull cut.
The powermatic is rarely a problem for this

When I twice turn bowls my first cut is from the tailstock side on the rim to true it.
Since the bowl is on a jamb chuck for this and the rim is 5 or more inches from the center the Powermatic headstock would not interfere here

Turning something like a mushroom between centers on the Powermatic it is not possible to turn the stem with the top of the mushroom towards the tailstock.

My ONEWAY occasionally limits some work I would like to do when I am undercutting and hollowing something facing the tailstock.

Have fun.
 
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But I still come back to the headstock being an issue. Plus the way I'm planning the layout, it's easier for me to work at the end of the PM or Robust. But I haven't done a layout with the Oneway 2016 lathe in mind.

I have had a Oneway 2436 for eleven years and also have three others lathes, including the Delta 46-460 with 1" 8 TPI headstocks. I purchased an adapter from M33 to 1" and have two Talon chucks set up for the smaller lathes and two chucks set up for M33. I use the Talons as much on the 2436 as I do the Stronghold and Oneway with M33. The Oneway headstock design already has some of the best clearance available and the adapter also provides additional clearance when reversing bowls if needed. I have the outboard 17" setup and do the interior of large bowls there and with a piece of keyed plywood makes a great tool table. I can't imagine justifying a sliding headstock just to hollow Christmas Ornaments. The procedure takes only a couple of minutes and is not difficult astride the lathe. I made a hollowing tool years ago that takes the work out of hollowing ornaments. It is in the Tools & Jigs album at the link below. I found the desire to hollow large vessels and vases etc. a short lived love affair.. A ten dollar adapter from M3 to M2 allows use of any Jakob's Chucks you might have in the tail stock and the headstock with MT 2 allows use of any MT things you have on hand. Virtually flawless performance of the 2436 over those eleven years. Many of our guild members have 1640's with similar performance.
 

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I have had my Powermatic 3520A for about 12 years now and love it. There are little nit things that bother me and many of those were answered when they came out with the B. Probably the biggest issue is tailstock weight as I get older having to remove that 57lb beast is a challenge. Not unsurmountable. I made a pulley system for a female friend so she simply attaches it to the tailstock, lifts it slightly and slides it out of the way on a track we put on the ceiling. Not as cool as the Robust swing away but very effective and about 1/20th the cost. the tool rest lock doesn't always hold. About 99% of the time it does but when hogging wood in larger pieces sometimes it will slip. It comes with 2 of the locking knobs. I almost never use the second one but on bigger stuff where I'm going to get aggressive I use that second one. If I crank the tailstock quill all the way back to the stop it will sort of lock up and you have to hit the handle pretty hard to knock it free. May be just my lathe and not the bulk and I know it will do that so I simply don't crank it all the way back unless I forget. Lots of people complain about the spindle lock being spring loaded and having to constantly hold it to remove the chuck. I seldom have a problem with it and find it faster to use than lathes that have a sort of twist lock function for the spindle lock. Stainless steel beds sound nice and probably are but since I wipe my bed down with WD-40 all the time to make everything slide smoothly I simply don't have much of a rust problem. After 12 years (and yes I've turned a lot of woods with massive amounts of tanin) the bed still looks fine. The sliding headstock is nice but it's heavy and takes a fair amount of effort to slide to the end of the lathe. consequently I don't do it as often as I might if it slid effortlessly. That might be true with any lathe with sliding headstock unless it's a small light weight lathe.
I don't get to turn on the varied lathes as often as Al does but have spent time on most of the lathes on the market. With the exception of the Robust all of the better lathes work wonderfully but have little things that I don't like. I'd probably get used to those things if I owned one. On the Robust everything works so smooth and locks so precisely and easily that it's a pleasure to use. When I moved (I'm still moving darn it). I thought about investing some of the equity in my house in a new lathe and getting the Robust. However I simply can't justify the money difference between it and Powermatic I already own. If I was having to buy a new Powermatic the cost difference would still be less but not sure I could still spend that much more.
I taught classes to 3 Powermatic engineers this last week. They seem truly interested in learning more about turning and applying that know knowledge to designing the new lathes. They said a 3520C was in the works but didn't say when it might come out. Anyway just thought I'd throw in the down and dirty side of the Powermatic. It is a very sweet lathe for the money. Not the same as the higher dollar lathes but a good bargain.
 
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I owned and have turned on a PM 3520B, I own and currently turn on a Robust AB and spent several days at David Ellsworth's shop turning on a Robust Liberty.

All are fine lathes. When I turned on each of them I never once considered the manufacturer of the lathe. They all performed exceptionally well and did exactly what I needed them to do. In reality the differences between these lathes with regards to performance are probably more important to "water cooler" discussions than actually turning experience. The price differential reflects engineering and manufacturing differences (eg. bearings, bed material, tool rests, banjos, etc). These factors may become more important to you in the future depending on how hard you plan on using the lathe. Rick D
 
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Ok, I had a great scouting trip. Well, actually, lathe scouting was secondary for this trip, but still it worked out well. I only saw 1 Robust lathe, but it was the Liberty. I had several of my questions answered that can only be done in person. I was curious on how the leveling and height adjustment worked. It really does look easy. I really liked how secure the banjo locked. And it really grabs the toolpost better than anything I've used before. I really like the spindle lock and the fact that it disables the power to the lathe. I've screeched my belt a few times on my Delta forgetting to disengage the index pin.

I did turn a spindle a little, but I have to agree with xraydog. Once you start turning, you don't think about the manufacturer of the lathe (provided it's working properly). It really felt no different than my Delta as far as turning. The difference is really in the quality of the manufacturing. The toolpost is really nice, and I would have thought I was using a brand new post, not one 5 years old. There wasn't a mark in it at all. Everything worked smoothly. In fact the lock for the toolpost will take a little getting used to. It locks so well, I had to adjust my normal method of placing the post. With mine, I sort of lightly tighten the post and then get it just where I want it, then lock it down. With the Robust, I basically had to have the lock totally free, put the post exactly where I wanted it, then lock it down. It will be an adjustment if I get the Robust, but every lathe I've turned on required some adjustment on my part. The ways looked brand new, not a spot on them, other than some very fine scratches. But I expected that. In fact I would have been surprised if they weren't shiny and new looking. Let's just say I was impressed, but not surprised by the Liberty.

The next day, I stopped by the Woodcraft store on the way out of town. They had a the Powermatic 3520b, so I got to look at it really closely. It's nice to have been able to compare the two machines so closely. After looking at the Robust, you really notice the difference in the manufacturing. That's not to say the Powermatic is bad, just that you can tell the Robust is nicer. I do like the extra weight that comes with all the cast iron the PM. I'd probably have to add a shelf with some sand on the Robust. The toolrest lock is certainly capable, I think someone mentioned tapping it with their tool handle to make sure it was tight. I don't think the iron ways are a drawback at all. I've had my delta for 5 years now, and aside from a few spots, they are like new with not a spec of rust.

I do want to thank the people that helped me locate the Robust lathes. Even though I didn't have the time to see the Sweet 16, the owner put me in touch with his friend who owned the Liberty. I probably spent an hour looking at things and talking about turning which is always fun. So whatever lathe I decide on, I met some nice people. Time well spent.
 

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I am glad that you had a great experience looking at the lathes and meeting some nice folks. I was sort of tied up with doctor appointments when you came through the DFW area. Seeing other people's lathes in their shops and taking a test drive is the best way to see what you like about each of them. In the end, it all boils down to what you want. All of the other data comparisons amount to justification to support your final decision.
 

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Bob,
One thing to think about is the Jet 1642.
It is a Powermatic painted white and shrunk down a bit. Only thing it is missing is a handwheel on the headstock.
It has a 2" shaft that works sort of like a handwheel.
I almost never use the handwheel because I want the outboard spindle open to screw things onto it (some turners like my wife use theirs) all the time.

With a 2hp motor it is more lathe than most turners will ever need.
Add a ONEWAY banjo for about $250 and you have a really sweet machine that will serve you well.

In fact you can add a ONEWAY banjo to just about any machine and it is an upgrade you would be please with.

If in a few years you decide you want an different machine you can probably sell it for close to what you paid for it.

I know of a couple jet 1642's around here that sold for more than their sellers paid for them new.

Al
 

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Bob,
One thing to think about is the Jet 1642.
It is a Powermatic painted white and shrunk down a bit. Only thing it is missing is a handwheel on the headstock.
It has a 2" shaft that works sort of like a handwheel.
I almost never use the handwheel because I want the outboard spindle open to screw things onto it (some turners like my wife use theirs) all the time.

With a 2hp motor it is more lathe than most turners will ever need.
Add a ONEWAY banjo for about $250 and you have a really sweet machine that will serve you well.

In fact you can add a ONEWAY banjo to just about any machine and it is an upgrade you would be please with.

If in a few years you decide you want an different machine you can probably sell it for close to what you paid for it.

I know of a couple jet 1642's around here that sold for more than their sellers paid for them new.

Al


Al makes a good point. I have the Jet 1642 and a VB36. I use the Jet an awful lot and like it quite well. I took a class last year at David Ellsworth's and turned on an AB and a Liberty. Very nice lathes but I wasn't tempted to upgrade my Jet.
 
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I am glad that you had a great experience looking at the lathes and meeting some nice folks. I was sort of tied up with doctor appointments when you came through the DFW area. Seeing other people's lathes in their shops and taking a test drive is the best way to see what you like about each of them. In the end, it all boils down to what you want. All of the other data comparisons amount to justification to support your final decision.
I appreciated the offer. It's probably a good thing we couldn't meet up. As much as I'd have like to see all 3 model, it was probably too much with everything else I had going on, and the AB isn't really on my radar. I've been pretty much useless today after getting back last night. And you're right, it all boils down to what I want. Everything I'm looking at will do the job and then some.
 
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Bob,
In fact you can add a ONEWAY banjo to just about any machine and it is an upgrade you would be please with.

Al
I keep hearing about the Oneway banjo. What is it about them that makes them so good? Apparently, they seemed to be preferred over the Robust banjo.

Al makes a good point. I have the Jet 1642 and a VB36. I use the Jet an awful lot and like it quite well. I took a class last year at David Ellsworth's and turned on an AB and a Liberty. Very nice lathes but I wasn't tempted to upgrade my Jet.
But if you didn't have your Jet, would you still buy the Jet, or would you go for something higher end like the Robust? It's not really a question you need to answer. It still goes back to what Bill said. It all boils down to what I want. Once my requirements are met, everything else is justification.
 
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