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Danny Hallum

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Hello. My stepfather is a woodturner, but I didn't learn the craft from him growing up. About three years ago, someone gave him an old Delta Milwaukee, and he passed it on to me. He's definitely given me some tips, but I've pretty much been in the basement by myself, learning from my mistakes. Actually, I've mostly been at work or hanging out with my wife and two daughters (3.5 and 8 months). I've had frustratingly little time in the basement, but I've somehow made some progress in the last three years. Right now, I'm selling salt and pepper grinders from spalted maple and other interesting pieces of firewood I pilfer from my parents' property in Wisconsin. I've recently been feeling the itch to expand my capabilities. My lathe has a 12" swing and a minimum speed of 900 rpm. I'm really looking forward to getting a lathe with a larger swing and electronic speed control. I'm set on getting a Jet 1642, 2 horse power, though I can't afford it at the moment. So I'll keep saving, and I'm hoping that sometime before I save enough for a new one, I'll come across a good deal on a used one. That search is what originally brought me to the forum, but I've been enjoying reading your discussions and looking at your gallery pictures. There is certainly a lot of knowledge and skill here! Nice to meet you all, and if anyone has any leads on a Jet 1642, 2 horse power lathe, I'd love to hear about it!

-Danny
 
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Welcome to the world of woodturning. It's an enjoyable hobby or business. You might check on the website and see if there is a woodturning club near you. They would be a great resource for you.
 

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Welcome to the AAW forum, Danny.

There is a great woodturning club in Chicago. Here is their website: http://www.chicagowoodturners.com

A woodturning club is the best way to advance your turning skills and somebody in the club might even have a lead to finding a lathe. The lathe that you have is quite good for turning most smaller items although the 900 RPM minimum speed I'd quite a problem for larger things. When your lathe was made, the main purpose of turning back then was for spindle work.
 

hockenbery

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Welcome!

Do check out the woodturning clubs,
They will welcome visitors.

Our clubs here email used lathes for sale and have a for sale announcements at the meetings.
I like the jet lathe.


Al
 
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odie

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I'm the "black sheep" on this forum.......!

Welcome to this forum, Danny.......

My beliefs are entirely opposed to the generally accepted ways of learning how to turn on a lathe. The advice I'm about to give will only apply to one in a hundred "newbies", and if that one person follows "the herd", he's lost that great advantage of what self-discovery can lead to. This does not deny that some very great, and accomplished turners have followed the established route to expertise on the lathe, but for the many who do choose that route, there is no turning back once "unlearning" is the only way to start over.

If I could wave my magic wand and become the mentor of someone like you, I'd say purchase a couple of professional videos and books on the subject of woodturning.......then study them like you are preparing for a final exam. Then, unleash yourself on the lathe for an extended period of time.....just you, and your lathe. This will not come without major disappointments and a lot of frustration, but the route to individual achievement as you see it (not as someone else sees it)........ will be a highway......instead of a trail. It's definitely a much more difficult path to wherever it leads a person, but the rewards are greater for those who can live through periods of experimentation, and the many failures resulting from it. Learn to take small achievements one at a time.....and, then build on your personal development.

900 rpm is way too fast for power, or hand sanding. I believe you can change that very easily by changing out the pulleys, or step-pulleys between motor and spindle shaft.....a very easily done modification for you. If you can get that down to around 300rpm, you should be able to do whatever you need to do at the slower rpms. I generally use my 1200 rpm setting as the max for bowl turning, and the step pulleys allow up to 2700rpm at the max, for spindle turning. I have electronic variable speed, so can go down to nearly zero rpm at any step pulley position. I have five step pulley settings.....370, 650, 1200, 2000, 2700.

Good luck in wherever your lathe takes you.......:D

ko
 
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john lucas

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Welcome to the woodturners heaven. Don't get too hung up on "needing" a bigger lathe. Although I have a bigger lathe 99% of everything I turn could easily be turned on a 12" lathe. Admittedly variable speed and more horsepower is sometimes nice and I wouldn't want to give it up. However I can turn most of the things I do on my Delta Midi that has 3/4 horse variable speed motor and 12" swing. Glad to have you on board and hope you get to spend more time on the lathe. Going to a turning club is without a doubt one of the best things you can do. You meet wonderfull people who are always willing to help.
 
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Thanks, everyone, for the advice and words of encouragement. While I don't disagree that joining the local club would be helpful, the Chicago club is off in some distant suburb. Plus, I'm afraid I might fall into Odie's camp on this matter. Anyhow, I'm not much of a social learner, and I love being alone with the lathe, making mistakes and doing my darnedest to learn from them before I destroy too many more pieces. Plus, my step father, the real woodturner in the family, lives only a fifteen minute walk from my house, so for some in-person tutelage I can't beat that. I'm not saying I won't ever check out the club. I would love to, but given the constraints on my time, it's just not likely to happen anytime soon.

I'll look into modifying the pulleys. That sounds interesting...
 
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Hello, Danny, & welcome.

Even if you're antisocial, I firmly believe in having a mentor, for the following reasons:

  1. Safety & safe practices
  2. Sharpening tools
  3. Having someone show you how to actually get the bevel on the wood, and feeling the cut with a sharp tool

I don't believe that you can get these from watching a DVD and studying books. For example, there are many ways of sharpening a tool--but you're better off seeing (and sharpening under someone's guidance). You can then pick the method that works best for you. (For example, right now, I'm a fan of the Wolverine jig for the spindle gouge and bowl gouge--but I know there are those who advocate, and are really good at freehand sharpening--if freehand sharpening works for you, or you prefer the Tormek jig, or the Ellsworth jig, etc.--all those are fine).

Regards,
 
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Even with the expertise you get at home it is good to get other perspectives and you can get that at a club. Also at a club you can get techniques that your stepfather is not familiar with. Almost every meeting I pick up something new albeit small. There is always a new tool out there and probably someone will have it or know about it. Another advantage is that clubs have a library so that you can check out DVD or books to learn from.
 
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Club. Got it.

I see I've stumbled backward into a tall patch of feelings. You're certainly right that there is great value in multiple perspectives, and I'm not antisocial by nature. I just enjoy my alone time, that's all. I am in no way against going to a club meeting, and I will sooner or later do so. In saying that I may fall into Odie's camp, I think I misspoke. I didn't realize there was an ongoing debate, and I in no way intended to jump into a debate by hastily choosing sides.

If Odie is proud of the way he learned without outside influence, so be it. I can sympathize to a degree, but it really has nothing to do with me. I'm sure his was an epic journey, and one he should indeed be proud of. But I don't need to be convinced of the value of seeking additional in-person help. I'll take all the help I can get, but it will be some time before I'm able to make it to a club meeting. With a three-year-old and a baby, I have a long list of things that I'll eventually get to, and that's one of them. In the meantime, I'm greatly enjoying the learning process, such as it is.

I do take your point that clubs offer a wealth of diverse knowledge and experience, and I agree that the one thing you simply cannot gain on your own is diversity, which is invaluable. I hope we can move past the question of to club or not to club.
 

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It's easy to appreciate that a young guy with small children already has a full plate to keep to keep his schedule more than fully booked. That is probably one of the reasons that a large percentage of club members have grown children and many new turners take up woodturning about the time that they retire.

I have been doing woodworking for most of my adult life, but didn't develop an interest in turning until I retired. For a while i tried to learn on my own and barely scraped by. It wasn't until I joined a club that I found out how bad my techniques were even though I had read books and watched a few videos. Many woodturners are self taught especially the older ones because until about 30 years ago there weren't many other options. The big payoff comes when turners are able to get together and share ideas. Some of that sharing can come through Internet forums, but the best is personal contact.
 

odie

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I see I've stumbled backward into a tall patch of feelings. You're certainly right that there is great value in multiple perspectives, and I'm not antisocial by nature. I just enjoy my alone time, that's all. I am in no way against going to a club meeting, and I will sooner or later do so. In saying that I may fall into Odie's camp, I think I misspoke. I didn't realize there was an ongoing debate, and I in no way intended to jump into a debate by hastily choosing sides.

If Odie is proud of the way he learned without outside influence, so be it. I can sympathize to a degree, but it really has nothing to do with me. I'm sure his was an epic journey, and one he should indeed be proud of. But I don't need to be convinced of the value of seeking additional in-person help. I'll take all the help I can get, but it will be some time before I'm able to make it to a club meeting. With a three-year-old and a baby, I have a long list of things that I'll eventually get to, and that's one of them. In the meantime, I'm greatly enjoying the learning process, such as it is.

I do take your point that clubs offer a wealth of diverse knowledge and experience, and I agree that the one thing you simply cannot gain on your own is diversity, which is invaluable. I hope we can move past the question of to club or not to club.

The question of whether to "club, or not to club" doesn't have a clear cut answer. As I said previously, there is possibly only one out of a hundred new and seasoned turners who will propel himself beyond horizons that would not have been possible if he were continually bombarded with all the opposing opinions and ideas.

Seeing from another perspective......we have so much diversity these days that someone learning can become so over-saturated and overwhelmed with all the new tools, sharpening techniques, thinking, and processes, that it can, and does become a negative influence.....for many, but certainly not everyone.

Here's a bit of a eye-opener to think about......When it comes to basic turning skills, there is absolutely nothing anyone can do with sharp edges applied to wood that couldn't be done 100 years ago. Everything was simpler back then, but the results of true craftsmen were no less than the best of the best today. There were simpler tools, simpler methods of sharpening, simpler ways of achieving results........but, the real refinement is in the hands of the craftsman gained by the time and effort he's willing to invest, not the latest and greatest methods of preparation, tools and techniques prior to applying that finely sharpened tool to the wood. It's not about what, how and who is in vogue at the moment....It's all about honing the mind and body, and in doing so, becomes a spiritual connection between you, your tools, and the wood. Sure, some teachers and mentors can highlight windows that allow an apprentice to see through the window to the other side.......but, there is nobody but yourself who can make the transition through the window happen. Those windows are available to all of us, whether it's one-on-one instruction, books, videos, or personal experimentation......it's up to all of us, as individuals to make that transition happen, because there is absolutely nobody else who can do it for us.

k
 
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hockenbery

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To me it is a simple question of doing good work and using the tools efficiently

I was self taught and selling bowls, hollow ball Christmas ornaments and pens in 1993 when Frank Amigo invited me to join a new club.
I had learned from Daryl Nish's books how to cut effectively leaving a clean surface and getting few catches.

When I started teaching in 1996, it used to Bug me that students could walk out of class doing work that took me five years to achieve.

In 1995 Frank talked me into taking a 5 day class by Liam O'neil. I had begun using the side ground gouge having seen how well it worked in John Jordan's hands. Liam fixed my too tight a grip on the tools by having me turn the outsides of bowls one handed. After turning three blanks from 11" bowls done to teacup sizes Liam let me move on.

The next year Frank had organized a 5 day class with David Ellsworth. I took the class to learn how to hollow better. David had me turn the insides of bowls one handed after I was tensing up too much trying the inside shear cut. It won't work with a tight grip.

Where do you want to be in five years?
Al
 
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Mark Hepburn

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Danny,

I'm a newcomer to turning and the forum. Just wanted to say hi, welcome and tell you that it's a great place with a great bunch of people.

But I bet you've already found that out already :)

So again, welcome, and enjoy the forum.

Mark
 
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Welcome Danny!

My 'journey' might be similar to yours but 20-some years further down the road. I bought a 1236Jet for $500 in the early-mid '90s and turned off and on due to other things in my life. Quickly found out that the money the lathe cost was only 'half' of the investment. Had a few periods of weeks where I did a lot of turning and learning (mostly Nov/Dec trying to get Christmas gifts made :) and lots of dry spells where the lathe sat gathering dust for months on end. My learning was from books and experimenting.

I've probably had 3 or so major steps forward, along with hundreds of other incremental steps along the way. The first was getting a couple DVDs (or VHS tapes in the day) where I got to actually see what was supposed to happen, I probably wore out Raffan's. The second was getting a wolverine jig and learning how to sharpen consistently...can't say enough about this if you haven't already passed this milestone, it should have been the first. The third major advance for me was purchasing a scroll chuck, opened up lots of new ways to hold things. There were lots of other significant learnings along the way (like when I finally figured out the process of how to turn a bowl (steps, chucking, etc), and have then since found that that process can be altered many ways depending on what you want and need without even thinking about steps anymore.

About 10yrs ago when the kids were teenagers and I started having more time I upgraded to a Powermatic lathe (and LOVE it). Similarly though, other things get in the way so my actual time on the lathe probably doubled, but still would go months without turning it on. Last year I retired and now am spending MUCH more time on the lathe (still can go weeks away, but most days my wife finds chips and shavings on my clothes).

My path doesn't have to be yours, but provides an example of a well-worn one for solidarity. Your path will be unique and you'll enjoy it. As you already know, books are a great education tool instead of trying to dream up everything on your own. DVDs even better as you can see how it's supposed to be done instead of trying to figure it out on your own. Now you can find LOTS of stuff on YouTube. Actually watching live is even better because you see lots of nuances and how various things interact. I can only imagine one-on-one teaching to be even better...maybe someday.

Good luck on finding your next lathe, and to squirrelling some time away to play on your own. At the same time, enjoy your family - kids get better and better at the ages your's are, you won't have that opportunity again. Good luck!
 

john lucas

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Actually you are alone most of the time when you turn. A good club is just a way to get past the learning curve without ruining tools hurting yourself. And I do learn a lot even after turning for 30 years. However without the doubt the best thing is the friends you make. I started off much like Ron. Turned a lot of things and had fun and gradually upgraded lathes as I went. I was pretty happy with what I was doing. Moved to Cookeville, TN and met Joe Looper who corrected me on all my bad habits and consequently helped me really enjoy turning. Learned more about good shapes and how to relax and get a good cut. And he was especially helpful in learning to sharpen. A good sharp tool with a consistent bevel is a dream to use. My grinds have changed over the years mostly due to watching other turners and asking questions. Consequently my turning is now much better and a lot more fun.
As an older turner one thing I really enjoy at the clubs is watching the new turners progress. I know many are embarrased to bring in their work thinking it's not good enough. Now way. We all started somewhere and showing work leads to more questions and more learning and more fun.
 
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I think the best thing for me would be a class. I don't know why I never really considered it before. Googling it just now, I found the Chicago School of Woodworking is only 10 or 15 minutes from where I live, and they offer a 6-week beginners course and an intermediate course.

Odie, I'm skeptical about your concerns for the power of negative influences. It seems to me that if one is not particularly interested in the newest technologies and techniques, being near people who are interested won't make much of a difference. Part of exploring the diversity of perspectives and opinions is evaluating which resonate with you personally. I am more drawn to the idea of old school craft and hand hewn refinement than to techie gizmos and micro-precision. There's no way that someone else's excitement over laser guided bowl hollowing would give me tool envy, but learning of their perspective would be interesting nonetheless. It seems to me one would have to be extremely soft willed for the bombardment of diverse opinions to limit the horizons he can achieve. If you yourself are self taught and did not participate in woodturning clubs, is there someone you know of who is not self taught, who did participate in clubs, and who felt that they would have achieved more had they not? Or is this all theoretical?
 
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Welcome Danny!

My 'journey' might be similar to yours but 20-some years further down the road. I bought a 1236Jet for $500 in the early-mid '90s and turned off and on due to other things in my life. Quickly found out that the money the lathe cost was only 'half' of the investment. Had a few periods of weeks where I did a lot of turning and learning (mostly Nov/Dec trying to get Christmas gifts made :) and lots of dry spells where the lathe sat gathering dust for months on end. My learning was from books and experimenting.

I've probably had 3 or so major steps forward, along with hundreds of other incremental steps along the way. The first was getting a couple DVDs (or VHS tapes in the day) where I got to actually see what was supposed to happen, I probably wore out Raffan's. The second was getting a wolverine jig and learning how to sharpen consistently...can't say enough about this if you haven't already passed this milestone, it should have been the first. The third major advance for me was purchasing a scroll chuck, opened up lots of new ways to hold things. There were lots of other significant learnings along the way (like when I finally figured out the process of how to turn a bowl (steps, chucking, etc), and have then since found that that process can be altered many ways depending on what you want and need without even thinking about steps anymore.

About 10yrs ago when the kids were teenagers and I started having more time I upgraded to a Powermatic lathe (and LOVE it). Similarly though, other things get in the way so my actual time on the lathe probably doubled, but still would go months without turning it on. Last year I retired and now am spending MUCH more time on the lathe (still can go weeks away, but most days my wife finds chips and shavings on my clothes).

My path doesn't have to be yours, but provides an example of a well-worn one for solidarity. Your path will be unique and you'll enjoy it. As you already know, books are a great education tool instead of trying to dream up everything on your own. DVDs even better as you can see how it's supposed to be done instead of trying to figure it out on your own. Now you can find LOTS of stuff on YouTube. Actually watching live is even better because you see lots of nuances and how various things interact. I can only imagine one-on-one teaching to be even better...maybe someday.

Good luck on finding your next lathe, and to squirrelling some time away to play on your own. At the same time, enjoy your family - kids get better and better at the ages your's are, you won't have that opportunity again. Good luck!

So far, our journeys are very similar. I did get a wolverine jig as one of my first purchases. I too experienced a leap forward when I got my scroll chuck about a year ago. And I also have been spending extra time on the lathe in the couple months leading up to Christmas. I've considered DVD's, but with YouTube and with my step dad close by, I haven't felt like spending the money for them.
 
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Where do you want to be in five years?
Al

My five-year goals have little to do with woodturning. However, I would still like to be turning wood in five years, and I hope to have progressed in that time. For me, at this point, it's a hobby and I have no plan for it to be more than that, though I'd be open to it. I am actually selling salt and pepper mills at the moment, but only to friends and acquaintances. I'm not doing and marketing.

I do take your point about taking a class. I think it's an excellent idea.
 
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Taking some classes, especially to get some of the basics initially, need NOT define even your basic approaches to turning or foreclose doing things in ways others do not, particularly after you have some experience. I have discovered this in the last couple weeks, since by chance I have had an opportunity watch both of the turners who taught me beginning turning (especially bowls but some basic hollowing) perhaps seven years ago. Back then I took separate bowl classes (one-day each) from the two since they had somewhat different approaches -- one leaning more toward art, the other more pragmatic. I thought each had something useful to teach me about basic turning.

In the course of watching them in the last couple weeks, I found that I no longer turn even basic bowls the way either of them do (and taught me), even though I thought I did. It was a genuine surprise to me. Even our basic sequences of work diverge. When I described one basic method I use to one of them, his reaction was "You do WHAT?" I said I thought I remembered seeing him do so – he said no, and watching him this weekend proved he did not. Clearly taking classes as a beginner did not put a straitjacket on even the basics of my approach to turning.

What they taught me was the fundamental skills. With that foundation, I have since followed my interests into areas of turning where neither of them work, and explorations of idiosyncratic shapes. I had to develop my own techniques and sequences for some odd turning problems. Even in the turning clubs I belong to, my work is idiosyncratic in both types of pieces and methods. This despite almost all elaborations being absent from my work – I almost never use paint, rarely add dye or fuming, have never done any piercing, have yet to make a finial, am interested in traditional turning traditions, and have turned only one pen. But then – my first inspiration for taking up turning was the work of an anonymous craftsman in medieval Cairo (I worked in a museum at the time). Taking classes to learn the fundamentals was not restrictive. It just gave me the foundation which has allowed me to wander into dark alleys of the turning world in pursuit of my own interests. Experience and following your interests can lead to your own style once you have the basics.
 

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This has become an interesting thread, and this is not to discount the validity of all those who have posted since my last post. All those thoughts expressed since have real world application, but I feel my point also has merit.

Let me try again to explain my thinking, although I feel a person probably has to have traveled the same road to truly understand why I feel it's an important point........

As a hypothetical, lets say two people want to build a widget. If those two people set out to build the widget without any outside influence, it's very probable the finished widgets will look and function entirely differently. Let's say one of those two people sought out some advice on how to build widgets from those experienced in building widgets. His widget would likely look different than the one he would have built, had he not sought out some help.....and it would also look different than the widget the other guy built without any help. All three widgets would be different, but the one that was built after seeking advice would likely have similarities to the ones made by everyone else who are also building widgets.

That might make sense to a few of you, or maybe not......but, it is the essence of how creative instinct results in something unique. It certainly doesn't mean creative instinct can't exist without a "clean slate", so to speak, but it does tend to mean the learning process will be isolated from the sum total of all those who are making widgets.....and because that isolation exists, the finished widget will be different.

ko
 
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it's a bowl, Odie. to a great extent, a bowl is a bowl is a bowl.

you turn some very nice stuff from what I've seen.

Imagine what would have happened if you had taken some lessons along the way. Perhaps you would have progressed even farther than where you are now. Instead of spending your "journey" on learning how to use your tools - what if you learned (from a pro) how to use the tools and then instead spent your journey on design?

where would you be now?
 
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I think I know what Odie's trying to say, but if I may put words in his post, he's not expressing it the way I would express it.

We all have blinders--cultural, or otherwise--that prevent us from thinking a certain way. Conceptual barriers. These conceptual barriers inhibit creativity. When trying to come up with creative solutions, brainstorming is a tool--but we need to "let down cultural inhibitions" when brainstorming.

Odie is expressing that (poor) teaching can be rigid, and inhibits creativity. (This is where I'm putting words in your post :D)

Today's woodturning is not manufacturing bowls, chalices, table legs, or axles for production use--it is a craft (some would go so far as to say art. I don't aspire to artist, the most I aspire to is artisan). Creativity is an important element, and Odie is expressing how best to let creativity loose.

Where I would fall on that spectrum--I want instruction and mentoring on the most effective, safe, (and labor saving) way of using tools. So, in my experience--I do want mentoring and instruction. (Now, if the mentor tells me that my ogee is ugly, I may disagree. If he or she says my walls are thick and heavy, I'll agree and want to learn how to get thinner walls).

Hope that discussion helps you, Danny.

Best,

Hy
 

hockenbery

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My five-year goals have little to do with woodturning. However, I would still like to be turning wood in five years, and I hope to have progressed in that time. For me, at this point, it's a hobby and I have no plan for it to be more than that, though I'd be open to it. I am actually selling salt and pepper mills at the moment, but only to friends and acquaintances. I'm not doing and marketing. I do take your point about taking a class. I think it's an excellent idea.

Danny,
I didn't intend to get in the selling market.

I gave pens and Christmas ornaments as host gifts when we went to people's houses.
Bowls too.
Then I had people calling me saying " I was over at Bruce's house and could you make me one of those, I will pay you for it.....

Then somehow my bows, got to be wedding gifts from the offices where I worked. It was a big place with lots of office units.
So I would bring a trunk full of bowls and the those in charge of the gift would go through my trunk at lunch time...

Then i applied to a juried show with a friend. We got in and then it occurred to me that I could do more turning and buy more tools with the modest income.

Al
 
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Self taught

Danny,

When I started shooting benchrest competition I was very fortunate to have an internet friend who was a Hall of Fame shooter and had held the world record in the most actively competed in class and distance for about fifteen years. He also made some of the best bullets(projectiles) in the world, bar none. His list of accomplishments would fill many many pages. Having worked in R&D, I had my own ideas about how to build a better rifle and load a better round. I asked Jef what he thought of my ideas.

He replied that he was sure the wheel would be better and rounder than ever when I got through reinventing it! I laughed at his gentle way of putting it, rubbed the large metaphorical dent in my head, and went with what worked for him and thousands more. It doesn't count except in certain competitions so there isn't the same pressure on a shooter but I did shoot well under a world record once. The thing is, easiest to first learn what other people that are successful do and why. Then if you choose, you build on that. Do you really want to start turning with the same things people used centuries ago. They did have power lathes, using dogs, goats, or people. I don't have any of them available but if you choose the treadmill powered option I will donate four cats to your efforts!

Take advantage of the school if you can. If that is too hard with family, children are a million times more important. However you have another priceless resource whose time is probably much more flexible, your stepfather. I started off totally self taught. Purely a matter of luck that I had no major injuries. If you don't know, you don't know. "Must be safe or they wouldn't make the machine where you could do it so easily." I have actually heard that. One of the less bright things I ever heard!

For safety's sake and purely for your own enjoyment, take advantage of any early mentoring you can. I have known people who worked in structured groups for decades and still could think way out of the box when they needed to. The sooner you quit struggling with the tools and wood the sooner you can really enjoy turning and let ideas flow freely from you mind to the wood.

Good luck, remember to have fun, and stay safe! Be very very careful of little ones being where they aren't expected. If possible I would lock your work area when you are turning.

Hu
 
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Hi - good advice on locking the door. As mine got older I've trained everyone (including DW) to knock and WAIT until I respond before entering. Had the &*$# scared out of me a couple times while I was concentrating on something. They all understand power tools and surprises don't mix.
 
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This has become an interesting thread, and this is not to discount the validity of all those who have posted since my last post. All those thoughts expressed since have real world application, but I feel my point also has merit.

Let me try again to explain my thinking, although I feel a person probably has to have traveled the same road to truly understand why I feel it's an important point........

As a hypothetical, lets say two people want to build a widget. If those two people set out to build the widget without any outside influence, it's very probable the finished widgets will look and function entirely differently. Let's say one of those two people sought out some advice on how to build widgets from those experienced in building widgets. His widget would likely look different than the one he would have built, had he not sought out some help.....and it would also look different than the widget the other guy built without any help. All three widgets would be different, but the one that was built after seeking advice would likely have similarities to the ones made by everyone else who are also building widgets.

That might make sense to a few of you, or maybe not......but, it is the essence of how creative instinct results in something unique. It certainly doesn't mean creative instinct can't exist without a "clean slate", so to speak, but it does tend to mean the learning process will be isolated from the sum total of all those who are making widgets.....and because that isolation exists, the finished widget will be different.
ko

Kelly I would like to add to your observation on the widget. As you stated all three would not likely be the same. The person who sought help would not necessarily make his even similar to the person he consulted with and it may actually have improvements due to his observation or consulting others. So there is therefore no true way to predict which direction a truly "talented" person will take in the presence or lack of consultation. This is in effect the choice that God leaves to us to create in our own freewill and direction as we see fit.
Definitely some interesting though processes going on here.
 
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Danny,

When I started shooting benchrest competition I was very fortunate to have an internet friend who was a Hall of Fame shooter and had held the world record in the most actively competed in class and distance for about fifteen years. He also made some of the best bullets(projectiles) in the world, bar none. His list of accomplishments would fill many many pages. Having worked in R&D, I had my own ideas about how to build a better rifle and load a better round. I asked Jef what he thought of my ideas.

He replied that he was sure the wheel would be better and rounder than ever when I got through reinventing it! I laughed at his gentle way of putting it, rubbed the large metaphorical dent in my head, and went with what worked for him and thousands more. It doesn't count except in certain competitions so there isn't the same pressure on a shooter but I did shoot well under a world record once. The thing is, easiest to first learn what other people that are successful do and why. Then if you choose, you build on that. Do you really want to start turning with the same things people used centuries ago. They did have power lathes, using dogs, goats, or people. I don't have any of them available but if you choose the treadmill powered option I will donate four cats to your efforts!

Take advantage of the school if you can. If that is too hard with family, children are a million times more important. However you have another priceless resource whose time is probably much more flexible, your stepfather. I started off totally self taught. Purely a matter of luck that I had no major injuries. If you don't know, you don't know. "Must be safe or they wouldn't make the machine where you could do it so easily." I have actually heard that. One of the less bright things I ever heard!

For safety's sake and purely for your own enjoyment, take advantage of any early mentoring you can. I have known people who worked in structured groups for decades and still could think way out of the box when they needed to. The sooner you quit struggling with the tools and wood the sooner you can really enjoy turning and let ideas flow freely from you mind to the wood.

Good luck, remember to have fun, and stay safe! Be very very careful of little ones being where they aren't expected. If possible I would lock your work area when you are turning.

Hu

Hu, I enjoyed your story, and I completely agree with the point. I think that's the major flaw in Odie's argument. He's presuming a link between ignorance and innovation that simply isn't there. The truth is, you need to master the form before you can competently improvise. I think the evidence bears this out across all disciplines. I know that technically you don't NEED to master the form before you improvise, but it's a lot better if you do. To every parent who's looked at the work of a classically trained painter who did something simple and said, "My four-year-old could do that,": maybe, but there's a reason your four-year-old didn't do that, and even if they did, it would not carry anything of the same meaning or gravity as when a master decides to paint that way. And besides, the world's innovation clearly comes most from people who are highly trained in their specialized fields, not from backyard tinkerers checking out "Free Energy!!! What the Government Doesn't Want You to Know!!!" videos on YouTube. I'm glad he has no regrets for the way he learned, but it's hard to support the argument that learning stifles creativity with any sort of credible evidence. Knowledge is power. (Now, as an experienced teacher, I can tell you for sure that TEACHING can stifle creativity, and perhaps, as Hy suggested, this is at the heart of Odie's argument. But I can also tell you that good teaching can change lives in the most wonderful ways, let alone unleash some creativity in the woodshop.)
 
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I think I'm starting to distill the arguments into something I can wrap my brain around. Odie is saying, more or less, that if something is conceived of and manifested in creative isolation, it is more likely to be unique than something that originated from within the form and traditions of an established discipline. (Correct me if I'm wrong, please.) On the other hand, everyone else is saying that everyone has the creative spark to varying degrees, and learning technique and caution is unlikely to diminish a creative person's ingenuity, in fact, learning and sharing ideas often leads to great innovation.

I think there's a very important difference between the two arguments that kind of renders them incompatible. Odie is talking about uniqueness, while everyone else is talking about innovation and creativity. I don't mean to belittle Odie's work; I haven't perused the galleries yet, but I hear it's good work. But, in general, it can be said that "unique" does not imply "good." Unique might be good, but it might just be unique junk. it's different than innovation and creativity within a discipline. So I think there's room for everyone to be right. Maybe what Odie is saying is that isolation leads to unique work and, yes, for most people that's going to mean unique pieces of artless, crudely hewn kindling, but for some minuscule percentage who have some inborn, latent savantism it's going to mean unique works of genius. Whereas everyone else is saying, okay, you can bank on being a savant in isolation if you want, OR you can learn the time tested techniques of the craft and give your fine tastes and creativity the means of expression through hands that have practiced the form in a learned way.

My wife is an artist and an art teacher, so this kind of argument is discussed frequently in our house, usually after a kid in her class brings it up. There was a This American Life episode on the subject, and my wife has considered playing it for her class, though I don't think she has. In it, Ira Glass was talking about how people who get into creative persuits often give up early because they don't recognize the difference between their ability and their taste and creativity. They are two separate things. You can be musically creative and have great taste in music, yet not have the musical ability to express it. If you give up playing an instrument because you disappoint yourself with the bad music that comes out when you play it, it might just mean that despite your taste and creativity, you simply haven't learned the technique of the instrument. Your hands need to practice and be taught. (Forgive me if I misrepresent the This American Life episode. I've only heard my wife explain it. I didn't listen to it myself.) To run with this example, a creative person with great musical taste who has no knowledge or experience with the piano might do some interesting things with a piano. It will likely be unique. Given time, it will likely be pretty good. If they are a savant, it might even be totally amazing. If they take piano lessons and work their hands so their hands know the keys and move with practiced dexterity up or down any scale, will that diminish their improvisation? When they improvise, will they just compose variations of the scales they practiced? I say that's totally up to them. It's possible that their taste in music was influenced along the way. It's possible that that influence will result in something less "unique." It's also possible that it will result in something more complex yet refined, more interesting to a greater number of people, and more fulfilling to the composer even while it is less unique. There is room for all these things, and none is definitively better to all observers.

I, however, am no savant.
 
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Bill Boehme

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To be fair, it is worth noting that while Odie's early learning may have been accomplished on his own, he has been one of the more active members of this forum exchanging ideas, techniques, and perspectives. He is often the catalyst that initiates a healthy discussion of ideas. When I scroll through the new images posted in the online gallery, I often see that Odie has already beaten me there and left feedback. So. in a way, I suppose that an educator might call this "distance learning" for all participants.

Maybe another part of this discussion that hasn't been expanded upon would be what happens at club meetings that makes it worthwhile. Every club is different, but here are a few things that come to mind regarding my club, the Woodturners of North Texas:
  • Activities that help the community -
    • our club supports the local food bank's annual Empty Bowls Project by donating wooden bowls as "thank you" gifts to those who attend. Local ceramic, pottery, and glass artists also support the event. About 2,000 people attend the one day event and the food bank receives about $100,000 as a result.
    • Beads of Courage -- our club members turn wooden containers that hold the beads that children with cancer and other serious illnesses receive as they go through their treatments.
    • Many elementary schools have programs where they invite artists from various disciplines to expose them to some of the various facets of art. We participate with a couple schools and actually have the kids involved in turning candle holders on mini lathes. It is one of the more popular programs for the kids.
  • A monthly challenge to turn something like a sphere, platter, goblet, birdhouse, snowman, etc. without any limitations set on the challenge. On the birdhouse challenge, there were all sorts of innovative idea and sizes that ranged from hummingbird to condor houses. Every entry receives a ticket and several prizes are given during a drawing at the annual Christmas banquet.
  • Interesting programs every month. Many are "how to" such as making peppermills, tree ornaments, wooden jewelry,surface decoration, chasing threads, woodburning, metal spinning ... Sometimes we have artists in other disciplines to talk about their creative process. Once in a blue moon some newfangled tool will be a part of the program ... recently, the Trent Bosch Visualizer was used during a program on turning hollowforms.
  • Hands-on open shop days to help jump start beginners. I think that we had around fifty people at the open shop earlier this month. We usually do this quarterly.
  • Instant gallery -- a show and tell for members to bring their most recent work to the meetings.
  • Free wood -- it's an unusual meeting where somebody hasn't come across a downed tree or other found wood and brings a truckload to share.
  • And just plain socializing.
 
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Bill B., your post is excellent. Our chapter hosts "seminars" on things like sharpening, turning balls, etc. You did leave out an basic part of any turning activity- food. :cool:
 

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Thanks for the comments, Bill......

To be sure, I have learned a lot since I started communicating with other turners on this forum. I should mention that I have no misgivings about those who seek tutelage and input from other turners, and as I said at another time, I wanted some professional instruction back in the 80's and 90's......but, circumstances prevented it. For the world, I wouldn't give up my learning experiences, as it was. I feel my journey was unique, and I wouldn't trade that for anything! At this point in time, I'm settled in to a comfortable place, and I'm very happy with my personal style and abilities to achieve the results I'm looking for.

I do feel the route I've taken has ultimately been full of terrible frustration, but the end of the road was very satisfying. I also have learned to trust my own instincts for discovery and purpose......that is another real advantage to doing it alone! The more I was able to solve problems on my own, the more confidence it gave me to keep pushing forward, even though the road was rocky. It does require a "never give up" attitude.....and sometimes I am amazed that I didn't give up......

Even though I've had no personal instruction, I did definitely have some very good instruction through early videos and books. Depending on how one can absorb this information, it IMHO can be as good or better than personal instruction. One thing about it, unlike personal instruction, videos and books can be absorbed over and over again.

Because I do see certain advantages to the way my learning has progressed, this doesn't mean I don't acknowledge other advantages to how others do it.......

ko
 

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I think of woodturning as having two fundamental components

The technical - the effective use of the tools and new tools to do our tasks and make the basic object that are fundamental to our craft.
Bowls, spindles, goblets, vases, balls, small boxes, threaded lids.... Scroll chuck, deep fluted bowl gouge, side ground gouge, hollowing tools, hollowing systems, piercing tools, pen mandrels, Hunter tools, sharpening jigs, newer steels, vacuum systems and so much more are things that came about in the last 50 years or so.

The artistic - the forms and surfaces used to express ideas. Most turners produce forms that are derivative of other turned form or ceramic objects.
Producing something I wood that has not been made before in wood is one innovation, producing new forms is another innovation. Everyone appreciates a simple well turned bowl and making one is a great achievement. The artistic side has no boundaries, it is just had to find one to push that hasn't been pushed.

Most turners need to achieve a minimal level of expertise with the technical part before finding success with the artistic part.
The artistic begins for most of us with intentionally showing the organic structure of the wood in the finished form.
Natural edge, grain, voids, hollow, crotchets........
Then it moves to surface embellishments using beads, coves, grooves, holes, texture, carving, pyrography, color.
Multiple centers and multiple axes are used to make new forms
Pieces are sawn and/or joined to make new forms
Combining other material with wood.

It's is an exciting world out there

Have fun, learn, work safely....





There are few turners who are known world- wide for their technical excellence. They just use the tools better.
 
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Any video?

I think of woodturning as having two fundamental components

The technical - the effective use of the tools and new tools to do our tasks and make the basic object that are fundamental to our craft.
Bowls, spindles, goblets, vases, balls, small boxes, threaded lids.... Scroll chuck, deep fluted bowl gouge, side ground gouge, hollowing tools, hollowing systems, piercing tools, pen mandrels, Hunter tools, sharpening jigs, newer steels, vacuum systems and so much more are things that came about in the last 50 years or so.

The artistic - the forms and surfaces used to express ideas. Most turners produce forms that are derivative of other turned form or ceramic objects.
Producing something I wood that has not been made before in wood is one innovation, producing new forms is another innovation. Everyone appreciates a simple well turned bowl and making one is a great achievement. The artistic side has no boundaries, it is just had to find one to push that hasn't been pushed.

Most turners need to achieve a minimal level of expertise with the technical part before finding success with the artistic part.
The artistic begins for most of us with intentionally showing the organic structure of the wood in the finished form.
Natural edge, grain, voids, hollow, crotchets........
Then it moves to surface embellishments using beads, coves, grooves, holes, texture, carving, pyrography, color.
Multiple centers and multiple axes are used to make new forms
Pieces are sawn and/or joined to make new forms
Combining other material with wood.

It's is an exciting world out there

Have fun, learn, work safely....





There are few turners who are known world- wide for their technical excellence. They just use the tools better.




Al,

Do you have any video of turning with multiple axes? That does sound exciting!

A very good post, some smarty pants latches on to the one typo or auto correct gotcha. I noticed I had an awkward typo in my last post too but it wasn't as funny as yours!

Hu
 
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While I'm sure Monty Python could really do a funny turn with multiple axes, I think you (or Al) meant multi-axis turning (although the proper plural of one axis is two axes, rather than two axises...)

I believe Barbara Dill is demonstrating at the Pittsburgh symposium, and she wrote an article in the Dec. 2011 Woodturner magazine.
 
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Thanks for the comments, Bill......

To be sure, I have learned a lot since I started communicating with other turners on this forum. I should mention that I have no misgivings about those who seek tutelage and input from other turners, and as I said at another time, I wanted some professional instruction back in the 80's and 90's......but, circumstances prevented it. For the world, I wouldn't give up my learning experiences, as it was. I feel my journey was unique, and I wouldn't trade that for anything! At this point in time, I'm settled in to a comfortable place, and I'm very happy with my personal style and abilities to achieve the results I'm looking for.

I do feel the route I've taken has ultimately been full of terrible frustration, but the end of the road was very satisfying. I also have learned to trust my own instincts for discovery and purpose......that is another real advantage to doing it alone! The more I was able to solve problems on my own, the more confidence it gave me to keep pushing forward, even though the road was rocky. It does require a "never give up" attitude.....and sometimes I am amazed that I didn't give up......

Even though I've had no personal instruction, I did definitely have some very good instruction through early videos and books. Depending on how one can absorb this information, it IMHO can be as good or better than personal instruction. One thing about it, unlike personal instruction, videos and books can be absorbed over and over again.

Because I do see certain advantages to the way my learning has progressed, this doesn't mean I don't acknowledge other advantages to how others do it.......

ko

Well, I've now taken the time to look at your gallery postings. You do really beautiful stuff. Your mastery is evident. I really appreciate your good natured, honest dissent. I don't know what my path will be, but I'm sure it will be intriguing to me if to no one else, and it will not be without frustration. If it leads me to be half as capable as you are, that will be plenty. And while I don't entirely grasp all points of the argument you make, I certainly respect and admire the stamina and ingenuity it must have taken to reach your level of expertise through trial and error in relative isolation. That's the kind of pioneering spirit that I think keeps a lot of us tinkerers going. It can be frustrating as hell at times, but the little triumphs are so deeply fun! In that way, I think I might very much understand what your saying.

-Danny
 

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Well, I've now taken the time to look at your gallery postings. You do really beautiful stuff. Your mastery is evident. I really appreciate your good natured, honest dissent. I don't know what my path will be, but I'm sure it will be intriguing to me if to no one else, and it will not be without frustration. If it leads me to be half as capable as you are, that will be plenty. And while I don't entirely grasp all points of the argument you make, I certainly respect and admire the stamina and ingenuity it must have taken to reach your level of expertise through trial and error in relative isolation. That's the kind of pioneering spirit that I think keeps a lot of us tinkerers going. It can be frustrating as hell at times, but the little triumphs are so deeply fun! In that way, I think I might very much understand what your saying.

-Danny

Thank you kindly, Danny........

It's true that I feel very fortunate to have been the "pioneer" in my learning experience, and I wouldn't change a thing if I could go back about thirty years, even though it wasn't the way I wanted it to be at the time. If I were starting turning right now, I believe I'd still stick to my original plan.....get some "professional" instruction, and restrict any mentoring to only a few very accomplished turners. It's just too easy to be influenced by mediocrity and good intentions in such a way that "unlearning" would be the only way to eject that influence......just too problematic, in my point of view.

Remember there are some very good videos and books from professional turners....the ones you pay for. I went this route, and got some very good advice that way.

Whatever route you take, I wish you well in your quest.........:D

ko
 

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Al, Do you have any video of turning with multiple axes? That does sound exciting! A very good post, some smarty pants latches on to the one typo or auto correct gotcha. I noticed I had an awkward typo in my last post too but it wasn't as funny as yours! Hu

A few of the old guys long ago use to turn with an axe head in demos to show how the skew works..
I will work on the axes :)

Al
 
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An "axis" to grind ...

Axes is one of those words where different disciplines failed to agree on who lays exclusive claim to the word. As a result mathematicians and engineers use axes when referring to multidimensional vector space whereas scalar space involves a single axis. There is no axis of evil in math although I felt as though there was when going through some college math courses. Then there is the plural of axe.
 
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