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Bowl gouges.....how short is too short?

odie

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I recently pulled the bottom two gouges out of the junk drawer, and began using them again. They work as well as a new gouge, but the flute is beginning to get shallower. At some point, I expect them to be no longer useful, but I'm going to find out how short is too short.

Question: Is there any specific application other turners find for these nub gouges?

ko
 

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Regrind them to use as bottom feeders. Depth of flute is not as critical since you don't need to clear a lot of shavings on the bottom finishing cuts.
 

john lucas

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Bob Rosand ground half a concave in them turned upside down. So when you looked at them there was a point with a concave area on both sides. This was used to turn beads on bowl outsides. Just push it straight in a half bead. Move it over so the concave matches the half bead and push it it. It finishes off this half bead and starts another one
 

odie

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Regrind them to use as bottom feeders. Depth of flute is not as critical since you don't need to clear a lot of shavings on the bottom finishing cuts.
Bob Rosand ground half a concave in them turned upside down. So when you looked at them there was a point with a concave area on both sides. This was used to turn beads on bowl outsides. Just push it straight in a half bead. Move it over so the concave matches the half bead and push it it. It finishes off this half bead and starts another one

If anyone can supply photos of these two suggestions, or a link, or know where they can be found on the web.....it would be appreciated.

Looking forward to hearing of any other creative ideas for the nub gouges......if any.....?

ko
 
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No, not advice.......it would be better to think of it as seeking suggestions. :D

ko

Kelly, for the bead idea look at the beading tools in catalogs. This idea sounds like it makes a double beadcutter. That is a cutter top and one bottom. To look like this )( .
 

odie

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Kelly, for the bead idea look at the beading tools in catalogs. This idea sounds like it makes a double beadcutter. That is a cutter top and one bottom. To look like this )( .

Good day, Gerald......

Actually I have a couple of the commercial beading tools.....Sorby, I think. Never thought they were as useful as when I envisioned when I first bought them. The trouble is, it's impossible to get a good angled shear cut with them.....it must be pushed straight in, and that's going to require sanding in a very difficult spot. Well, unless the person using them can be satisfied with some not-so-great results. For my purposes, I specialize in bowls, and this means I always have to deal with alternating grain.....long grain and then end grain, and a whole different set of problems than what a spindle turner would face.

Now the ")(" sort of thing may be different.....may have to give that a try. It just might allow for some angled presentation. If so, that would give it a bit of an advantage for a better cut than my Sorby beading tools........:confused: (Not sure how someone would go about sharpening it though.....?)

ko
 
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john lucas

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The difference between Bobs tool and a standard double bead tool Is the curve of the upside down flute. It produces more of a shear cut than a scrape. If my shop was t locked in a storage bin I'd show you
 

Steve Worcester

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I recently pulled the bottom two gouges out of the junk drawer, and began using them again. They work as well as a new gouge, but the flute is beginning to get shallower. At some point, I expect them to be no longer useful, but I'm going to find out how short is too short.

Question: Is there any specific application other turners find for these nub gouges?

ko

When it doesnt project enough for the stick out that you use, it's done. It could be 1"-2". At that time it needs to be replaced.
 

odie

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Are you OK with resting the wooden handle on the tool rest? :rolleyes:

Ha ha! :D

My standard amount of space between tool rest and the wood is around 1/4" +/-. Those nub gouges are pretty short, but I've been using them quite a bit for the past couple weeks. They are still working as well as any other gouge. Matter of fact, there are some advantages to them being so short.......for a couple of very delicate cuts, the shorter length of both shank and cut down tool handle, make the tool a bit more nimble than a full sized gouge.

ko
 
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odie

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Odie,Is your first name Kelly? If so not many of us anymore.
As to how short? Many have no temper at the end so wont hold an edge. Its time. But if it stays sharp I use it till I cant.

Hi Kelly.......Yep, we have a first name in common! When I was born in 1949, the name Kelly was a traditional masculine Irish name......but, it's my opinion that the 1950's TV series called "Bachelor Father", where the daughter was named Kelly, was the turning point! From that moment on, there was a flood of girl Kellys! Do you still get a bunch of junk mail intended for women?.....Ha,ha! I get tired of seeing junk mail addressed to Ms. Kelly Odell!

Looks like I stopped using the nub gouges too soon......been using them regularly for the past several weeks, and they still work fine. I'm using a cone diamond hone to dress the inside of the flute, and I'm starting to necessarily tip the hone up because the end of the flute is curving up. I suspect I'll give up the ghost and forget about these gouges pretty soon.......

ko
 
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Just wondering....
Aside from the obvious mechanical difficulties of too short a bowl gouge, and it's ability to be used properly for the purpose at hand, I was taught that some manufacturers (all manufacturers?) do not harden the last inch or two of a gouge's bar stock. If that is the case, wouldn't that last in inch or two dull exceptionally fast in use? If so, then the deciding factors should be both practical use and ability to hold an edge. No? As stated in "Kelly's" reply above.
 
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Bill Boehme

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Just wondering....
Aside from the obvious mechanical difficulties of too short a bowl gouge, and it's ability to be used properly for the purpose at hand, I was taught that some manufacturers (all manufacturers?) do not harden the last inch or two of a gouge's bar stock. If that is the case, wouldn't that last in inch or two dull exceptionally fast in use? If so, then the deciding factors should be both practical use and ability to hold an edge. No? As stated in "Kelly's" reply above.

It is just the opposite of that -- some (don't really know if it's "most") only heat treat the first couple inches of the business end of the tool by "induction hardening". It is very similar to the induction hardening that bandsaw blade manufacturers use to harden the teeth of the blade, but not the back. You can be sure if it is a cheap tool that they use induction hardening as it is much quicker and takes less work than heat treating the whole tool.

When to quit using a tool can be anything that you wish and not an arbitrary rule.
 

odie

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Kelly I just had an idea . You could regrind into a scraper, which will be easier to sharpen.

Thanks for the idea, Gerald.......

I'm been intrigued by the Tracy Owen type of scraper for quite a long time, but never bought one. If I can manage to grind somewhat of a flat surface where the end of the flute is, I might be able to try that shape out without actually buying one......!

I've always felt the Tracy Owen scrapers were problematic to sharpen, but I should be able to get some practical experience with it this way.....

ko
 
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The Tracy Owens scraper is a big version of the Thompson Fluteless gouge. I wouldn't use it as a scraper because of the round bottom. It will want to tip over. As a shear cutting and shear scraping tool, it has its uses.

robo hippy
 

john lucas

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I would love to see an article on how manufacturers are hardening tools. I'm sure some heat the entire tool. Some probably use some sort on induction heating to just treat the flute length and who knows what else. I used to think they leave the shank less hard so it's less likely to break. Or it could be simply that the method of holding the tool prevents all of it from hardening properly. We are all obviously just guessing. I do know for a fact that the older Buck brothers tools were only hardened for the first few inches. When they get to where they would dull quickly my friend who was a production turned would simply re harden them. Of course you can't do that on today's HSS and particle metal gouges
 
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Well, if you have any D Way gouges, and I think the Carter and son do the same thing, they all have a hole in the but end. This is because they are suspended during the hardening/tempering process. Having Boeing in the Seattle area helps have some specialty services available that you can't normally find in other places. Not sure how the others do it though, maybe laid out on a table, run through an oven of some sort. The only thing I really know about the turning tool metals is how to sharpen them.

robo hippy
 

odie

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The Tracy Owens scraper is a big version of the Thompson Fluteless gouge. I wouldn't use it as a scraper because of the round bottom. It will want to tip over. As a shear cutting and shear scraping tool, it has its uses.

robo hippy

Agreed, Robo.........I don't believe there is any other use for the TO tools, other than for shear scraping. I will be using one of my nub gouges to test this configuration, but I need one a little shorter than the couple I have. Looking forward to experiment with this......

With a jig of some sort (something that will prevent tipping), a straight edge ought to be doable.......?

I am taking from you post that you haven't actually tried the TO tools......?

Anyone here with hands on experience?

ko
 

odie

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I would love to see an article on how manufacturers are hardening tools. I'm sure some heat the entire tool. Some probably use some sort on induction heating to just treat the flute length and who knows what else. I used to think they leave the shank less hard so it's less likely to break. Or it could be simply that the method of holding the tool prevents all of it from hardening properly. We are all obviously just guessing. I do know for a fact that the older Buck brothers tools were only hardened for the first few inches. When they get to where they would dull quickly my friend who was a production turned would simply re harden them. Of course you can't do that on today's HSS and particle metal gouges

John,

We do heat treating where I work. The thought occurred to take some photos, but I remembered that it's against company rules to take photos in the facility. We have some processes to heat treat medical instruments that are unique in the industry. Anyway, I can't tell you much about the process, other than there is a very big oven that is computer programmed to heat parts in a time/temperature schedule. The temperature programs are stepped......meaning the parts are heated up to around 1000° and are timed at different temps with a specified duration. They are then cryo treated in a freezer. I believe that one goes to around -200°, or so. Quite a sophisticated operation, but in another section of the building than where I work.........

In both the oven and cryo freezer, the parts are laid out flat on a screen, and completely enclosed within the unit for treating.....

ko
 

john lucas

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When I wrote my article on making your own tools I researched heat treating high speed steel. It's a complicated process and requires very accurate temps and times and often done in a bag to prevent oxygen from affecting the process. Attention to detail is probably the difference between cheap tools that don't hold an edge and quality tools that do
 
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