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Metal Turning????

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Hello all

I have a question that involves turning of nonferrous metals. I have been making and turning pens where the blanks I make are made from acrylics and various metals such as aluminum, copper, and brass. I have shown some of those here before. I have been using both standard wood turning tools such as a skew and also carbide cutters in my Easy Wood Tool. The cutters are basically made for wood and acrylics. My question is those that turn metals what do you use??? Are there carbide cutters specific for turning metals??? If so what are they and why are they different. I know carbides come in many many different make-up materials and this is why I believe there is better cutters for me to use when working with these metals. Are cutters with chip breakers better???

If you have a source or a web site that explains in more detail as to what I can use, you can PM me or I am not sure if you can post it here. maybe there is a metal working forum that maybe of use. Now the carbide cutters I have been using have gotten the job done and maybe they are the best for what I do but i thought i would leave no stone unturned if there is something better.

Thanks in advance.
 
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John - it's been quite a while since I learned a little of metal work in college (over 45 years now - so take this information for what it's worth) but we were using HSS cutters just like the square cutters that are often used for hollowing tools in woodwork. They were ground to a different edge profile, but just HSS.We were working mild steel and aluminum primarily. I know from the little reading I've done lately that carbides are used, but don't know what differences there would be from those used for woodworking tools.

You might want to look into the Home Shop Machinist website - they've got some useful information.

The info I've seen on Penn States website is concerning metal spinning, not turning (or cutting). Don't know that it would be much help for you.
 

john lucas

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Most metal cutting bits are designed to be held in rigid tool holder, not hand held. Usually the cutting angles are too blunt for hand held work. Regular HSS wood turning tools with angle from 35 to 55 degrees work well to cut non ferrous metals. I do it all the time. In fact I turned some aluminum just yesterday. I used my Thompson detail gouge. I like them because they are thick and don't chatter. It's very easy to induce chatter when turning metal because we tend to feed the tool too fast
 
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John T.,
You can use standard high-speed steel to cut non-ferrous metals. Machinists do it all the time. The carbide tools shine when you are machining steels and making heavy cuts and/or high feed rate. The heat generated is better tolerated by carbide tooling; HSS breaks down more quickly under those circumstances.

As for hand-held metal cutting, I have a fair bit of experience shaping brass, aluminum, and pewter on my wood lathe. It cuts and scrapes similarly to dense tropical woods and you don’t have to abide by any grain direction. You won’t be able to do much with any variety of iron or steel with hand-held tooling.
 
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hockenbery

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Ditto,
I have turned a pewter, copper, aluminum, lead bullets, with HSS.
not huge amounts and in the case of lead it has been buckshot and .22 found with tools in the the blank.

I've been experimenting recently with pewter and it turns quite nicely using cutting techniques.

Al
 

Bill Boehme

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I have incorporated copper, aluminum, and brass into turnings. I have used salvaged brass plumbing fittings to make ferrules for tool handles. Some brass turns very easily and others is as hard as the dickens. I suspect that red brass is harder than yellow brass based on my limited experience.
 

john lucas

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Bill I mentioned this in another forum but some fittings and things are either work hardened or hardened from the factory and need to be annealed to cut easily with woodturning tools. To Anneal Brass and copper it's exactly the opposite of steel. Heat it red hot and quench it. That will soften it enough to turn easily.
The problem with using standard metal cutting bits is they were designed to be held rigidly at very precise angles. Very hard to use them hand held. I've tried and they can be really grabby. The HSS square cutters that we all use in our boring bars work great for cutting metal in a scraping mode and will work in bevel rubbing mode if you regrind them to user friendly angles. All in all it's just easier to use a good wood turning tool that is made of a material that holds an edge longer like the Thompson tools.
 

Bill Boehme

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?.. To Anneal Brass and copper it's exactly the opposite of steel. Heat it red hot and quench it. That will soften it enough to turn easily...

Thanks for the tip. Now that you mention it, I do recall seeing your post about annealing brass and copper. I have a bunch of red brass pipe nipples that I bought way back before the price went through the roof. I have a couple Thompson bowl gouges that I need to make handles for, so I will give this a try.
 
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I get it. I get it. I do not know how many times people have told me wood tools will do the job. If you read my opening post I said I use them and have been using them and they do work. I get it. But tell me in today's society where things change so rapidly there is not a carbide cutter designed to be used with hand tools and cuts nonferrous metal better than wood tools. I do not believe it. The angle of the cutter and the make-up of the carbide has to be different. Just like angles of wood tools.

I thank all for the responses. I will continue my search and in the mean time when I can get back in my shop I will use my wood turning tools to turn the pens that I make that have nonferrous materials in them. Thanks again.
 

john lucas

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John. I have a metal lathe and have lots of different cutters for it including ceramic carbide and hss. The cleanest cuts I get are with custom ground HSS. The carbide cutter do hold an edge better but at least with my skills don't leave as good of a finish. I can get a better finish with the carbide by flooding the cut with coolant and the same is true with hss but I don't think that's a viable option for a wood lathe.
I'm quite sure there is a car IDE tool designed to cut non ferrous metals and leave a good finish but none of the info will be for hand bald tools.
Try contacting Vic at www.bestwoodtools.com. He turns mostly aluminum for his tools and is a master machinist. The finish he gets straight off the tool is fantastic. Maybe he would have se suggestions
 
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I get it. I get it. I do not know how many times people have told me wood tools will do the job. If you read my opening post I said I use them and have been using them and they do work. I get it. But tell me in today's society where things change so rapidly there is not a carbide cutter designed to be used with hand tools and cuts nonferrous metal better than wood tools. I do not believe it. The angle of the cutter and the make-up of the carbide has to be different. Just like angles of wood tools.

I thank all for the responses. I will continue my search and in the mean time when I can get back in my shop I will use my wood turning tools to turn the pens that I make that have nonferrous materials in them. Thanks again.

John,

Yes carbide tooling for cutting metal is different than those marketed for wood. Typically the edge for metal cutting tools are not as acute as those for wood. The reason being that the edge would be to fragile for metal if acute. Also, the carbide used for metal is not as brittle as that used for wood. The cutting forces in metal working are MUCH higher requiring less brittle tooling. The tradeoff to obtain a less brittle material is the inabilityb of the material to accept a keen edge. By this, I mean the edge can not be sharpened to a razor like edge that is required for wood cutting. A razor like edge would chip or crumble when cutting metal, especially ferrous metals. The wood turning carbide tools with the cannelure or groove have a more acute cutting edge and the edge is more fragile than those without. For woodturning, the edge is fine, but if used on metal, the more acute edge will be more apt to chip from the higher cutting forces involved. On metal tuning tools with a groove, typically the groove is a short distance back from the actual cutting edge and the edge is not more acute. The groove in the tool is used to help curl and break the chips.

Getting back to what I think you were trying to ask in your original question. The high speed tooling used in woodturning is the same material that is used in metal working. For metal working machinery, the tooling is not used in a bevel rubbing fashion and is used much like a scraper although it usually has some positive rake. If you are turning non ferrous materials that are laminated with acrylics, high speed wood turning tools will be your best option. Acrylics respond well to being turned with a scraper like cutting tool, as does aluminum and copper. But, acrylics, copper, and aluminum also turn well with a bevel rubbing cutting action. In either cutting mode with hand held tools and assuming you turn your blanks mounted on a pen mandrel, light cuts with light bevel contact will provide the best results. The mandrel setup would not provide the needed rigidity for the use of typical metal working carbide. I've not tried using the wood turning carbides in the manner you describe, but I would think the edge on either the groove or non grooved style would have a short life expectancy with the interupted cut and less than ridgid cutting process when used scraper fashion. Bevel rubbing mode with the grooved style using your fingers as a steady would help stop chatter and vibration, but the interupted cutting of the metal would likely still be damaging to the acute edge. High speed steel is much tougher and handles interupted cutting of most non ferrous metals without issue.
 
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John. I have a metal lathe and have lots of different cutters for it including ceramic carbide and hss. The cleanest cuts I get are with custom ground HSS. The carbide cutter do hold an edge better but at least with my skills don't leave as good of a finish. I can get a better finish with the carbide by flooding the cut with coolant and the same is true with hss but I don't think that's a viable option for a wood lathe.
I'm quite sure there is a car IDE tool designed to cut non ferrous metals and leave a good finish but none of the info will be for hand bald tools.
Try contacting Vic at www.bestwoodtools.com. He turns mostly aluminum for his tools and is a master machinist. The finish he gets straight off the tool is fantastic. Maybe he would have se suggestions


Thanks I did shoot him a message. Maybe i am reaching for something that is not there and will just keep using my standard wood tools. I need to order more carbide cutters anyway so I will look for a good place for them.
 
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John,

Yes carbide tooling for cutting metal is different than those marketed for wood. Typically the edge for metal cutting tools are not as acute as those for wood. The reason being that the edge would be to fragile for metal if acute. Also, the carbide used for metal is not as brittle as that used for wood. The cutting forces in metal working are MUCH higher requiring less brittle tooling. The tradeoff to obtain a less brittle material is the inabilityb of the material to accept a keen edge. By this, I mean the edge can not be sharpened to a razor like edge that is required for wood cutting. A razor like edge would chip or crumble when cutting metal, especially ferrous metals. The wood turning carbide tools with the cannelure or groove have a more acute cutting edge and the edge is more fragile than those without. For woodturning, the edge is fine, but if used on metal, the more acute edge will be more apt to chip from the higher cutting forces involved. On metal tuning tools with a groove, typically the groove is a short distance back from the actual cutting edge and the edge is not more acute. The groove in the tool is used to help curl and break the chips.

Getting back to what I think you were trying to ask in your original question. The high speed tooling used in woodturning is the same material that is used in metal working. For metal working machinery, the tooling is not used in a bevel rubbing fashion and is used much like a scraper although it usually has some positive rake. If you are turning non ferrous materials that are laminated with acrylics, high speed wood turning tools will be your best option. Acrylics respond well to being turned with a scraper like cutting tool, as does aluminum and copper. But, acrylics, copper, and aluminum also turn well with a bevel rubbing cutting action. In either cutting mode with hand held tools and assuming you turn your blanks mounted on a pen mandrel, light cuts with light bevel contact will provide the best results. The mandrel setup would not provide the needed rigidity for the use of typical metal working carbide. I've not tried using the wood turning carbides in the manner you describe, but I would think the edge on either the groove or non grooved style would have a short life expectancy with the interupted cut and less than ridgid cutting process when used scraper fashion. Bevel rubbing mode with the grooved style using your fingers as a steady would help stop chatter and vibration, but the interupted cutting of the metal would likely still be damaging to the acute edge. High speed steel is much tougher and handles interupted cutting of most non ferrous metals without issue.


Thanks. This is probably the most in debt response I got that did not include I use wood turning tools all the time. I am probably going to have to resolve myself to continue to use my wood turning tools. I am reaching for something that is not there. Thanks to you and to all who have responded.

John T.
 
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Thanks. This is probably the most in debt response I got that did not include I use wood turning tools all the time. I am probably going to have to resolve myself to continue to use my wood turning tools. I am reaching for something that is not there. Thanks to you and to all who have responded.

John T.

Maybe I missed it from your first message or in between; if so, I apologize. What are you looking for that you aren’t getting with the wood turning tools you’re using now? Why are you searching for a carbide tool?
 
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Maybe I missed it from your first message or in between; if so, I apologize. What are you looking for that you aren’t getting with the wood turning tools you’re using now? Why are you searching for a carbide tool?

That is probably a good question. Maybe i do not know but if i found it I would know. With HSS tools the constant sharpening. Even when I use wood carbide tools they dull so fast. The proper carbide for the job may make a difference. Maybe the cut would be sweeter. I am not sure because I don't know what the difference would be. I will use tablesaw blades as an example. Carbide blades for cutting woods is not the same carbide blades used to cut metals. Can they be used?? Yes but they dull that much faster. HSS blades cutting anything on a tablesaw dulls even faster.
 
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Oooops! After reading other posts, I misunderstood- metal turning and not metal forming as I had surmised. My mistake........and so early in the year.:eek:
 
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That is probably a good question. Maybe i do not know but if i found it I would know. With HSS tools the constant sharpening. Even when I use wood carbide tools they dull so fast. The proper carbide for the job may make a difference. Maybe the cut would be sweeter. I am not sure because I don't know what the difference would be. I will use tablesaw blades as an example. Carbide blades for cutting woods is not the same carbide blades used to cut metals. Can they be used?? Yes but they dull that much faster. HSS blades cutting anything on a tablesaw dulls even faster.

This is a good start. In my experience with brass and aluminum, the gouge edge lasts almost as long as when cutting dense woods. I haven’t turned much copper on my wood lathe (or my metal lathe), but I’m pretty sure it’s near aluminum in material hardness. It seems to me that you have tried two different edge profiles: quite acute with the standard gouges and minimally acute with the easywood-type scraping insert. Which better produces the cut and finish you’re looking for?

If you do some research into inserts for metal lathes, you’ll see that those intended for aluminum and brass have a quite acute cutting profile - much more in line with the (50ºish) grinds of wood turning gouges than a scraper.

My suggestion is to buy some 3/4” or 1" round aluminum rod at the hardware store and try skew and gouge cutting with it. You should get the 1"-3” long curly shavings like you do with wood. The finish should be pretty bright and shiny but will show small ripples that should clean up with 180 or 220 sandpaper. If you can do that and post photos, it may help us help you.
 
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