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friction polish for bowls.....Mylands/Shellawax

odie

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Am planning on adding some friction polish to a CSUSA order, and wondering if anyone here has recommendations between these choices. Mylands or Shellawax. Anyone tried both and can give us a comparison?

The Shellawax is quite a bit more expensive.......any benefit to the results?

thanks, ooc
 
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By reputation, both products are for spindle turnings rather than bowls. You branching out or just like shiney?

PS: Again by reputation, it takes real heat to use the stuff. I do know a couple of Pen and magic wand turners who love the stuff, but they're cranking 1800 to 3000 rpm. I rather doubt you're going to like spinning your bowls at that speed, let along "grabbing" them to create the needed friction heat it takes to melt the wax/shellac finish into the wood's pores. But, I could be wrong in that view, and, admittedly, have never used the stuff mentioned although I've made a similar product out of carnauba and shellac when I was doing a bunch of restoration stair spindles for a friend's house.
 
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odie

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My intent is mainly for small bowls and platters. Looking for possible alternatives that may be faster for smaller work. I'm feeling satisfied with my Danish oil/Beale method for larger work.....but, at this point, it's strictly experimental, as I haven't use friction polish before, either. I do know of one successful production turner that uses friction polish on larger bowls, though. (I wonder if an auxiliary heat source would help for larger work......?)

Still looking for input from anyone who has used either of these brands of friction polish.

I see one of the reviews from Mylands mentions using it on bowls......but, most of the users are using for spindle work.....pens, bottle stoppers, and such. The info for Mylands doesn't mention bowls, but the picture on the label shows it being used on a bowl.

http://www.woodturnerscatalog.com/p/17/2584/Mylands-Friction-Polish?term=friction polish

Hut also makes a friction polish, but that one is out of stock.

Still looking to connect with someone familiar with these brands of friction polish.....

ooc
 
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Can't help out about the comparison but I did use the Shellawax on a plywood bowl glue-up. I did use their Triple-E pretreatment and like the way it turned out. It's only about 6 months old but the finish shines like it was just put on. Hard to tell the finish from these pics but it turned some crappy old Home Depot plywood into something that was giftable. This bowl is 14.5" x 4.5" deep. Had to get the rpm's around 900 or so and grab it a little tighter than normal to get the friction to generate the heat but never felt like it was unreasonable.
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Many years ago when I was a newbie I think I tried all of them, but don't remember anything other than they were roughly the same in results. I began first using them on pens, but discovered that oils, sweat, and/or lotions turned the finish sort of dull and maybe even a bit soft. Shellac doesn't seem to be very durable for things that are handled a lot. Like most beginners , I made a bunch of small bowls and used these shellac/wax products. They were OK if the bowls were without flaws, but otherwise could be a problem. Any voids or bark inclusions were an absolute mess. Warped bowls were also a mess because the entire surface couldn't be polished uniformly. This meant there were streaks and clumps and dull places. I also thought that those products were overpriced. Other than that, they are fantastic. :rolleyes:
 
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Many years ago when I was a newbie I think I tried all of them, but don't remember anything other than they were roughly the same in results. I began first using them on pens, but discovered that oils, sweat, and/or lotions turned the finish sort of dull and maybe even a bit soft. Shellac doesn't seem to be very durable for things that are handled a lot. Like most beginners , I made a bunch of small bowls and used these shellac/wax products. They were OK if the bowls were without flaws, but otherwise could be a problem. Any voids or bark inclusions were an absolute mess. Warped bowls were also a mess because the entire surface couldn't be polished uniformly. This meant there were streaks and clumps and dull places. I also thought that those products were overpriced. Other than that, they are fantastic. :rolleyes:

Went back and looked at the product Odie is talking about and, IIRC they seem to have changed a bit in that Shellawax looks like it can now be applied statically and then just buffed rather than as a regular friction polish that used to take serious rpms to properly melt and blend. Should work ok to make a piece shiney, but a high-wax french polish finish (what these products are) is not something to be used or handled much.

Seems to me that a fast-build pure shellac finish is a better idea. This 10" Ambrosia Maple DSC00043.jpg bowl was finished on the lathe with 3lb cut Ultra-Pale 100% dewaxed shellac hand applied. Although its bright coloration has faded a bit over 10 years, the finish has retained its sparkle.
 
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Odie If your doing bowls etc then Shellawax have a cream in a bottle thats is ideal for bowls. But if your bowls are small then the regular Shellawax is fine. The reason being on large bowls, say 12" across the regular will dry before you can get it applied and the cream being more fluid just makes it easier.
Its hardness will get better with time as it cross links with the oxygen in the atmosphere to harden up. Actually you apply several coats for a greater depth of gloss and cut or polish each on with EEE. I have heard, but not seen, when fully hardened up alcohol wont effect the surface.
The best finish to be had is to have a very good preparation to the wood before apply the Shellawax. So if sand down one of the very fine grits then EEE the Shellawax with come up brilliantly.
 

odie

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Odie If your doing bowls etc then Shellawax have a cream in a bottle thats is ideal for bowls. But if your bowls are small then the regular Shellawax is fine. The reason being on large bowls, say 12" across the regular will dry before you can get it applied and the cream being more fluid just makes it easier.
Its hardness will get better with time as it cross links with the oxygen in the atmosphere to harden up. Actually you apply several coats for a greater depth of gloss and cut or polish each on with EEE. I have heard, but not seen, when fully hardened up alcohol wont effect the surface.
The best finish to be had is to have a very good preparation to the wood before apply the Shellawax. So if sand down one of the very fine grits then EEE the Shellawax with come up brilliantly.

Thanks for replying, Hughie.......

I see a Shellawax cream in a plastic container.....this what you're talking about?
http://www.woodturnerscatalog.com/p/40/3279/U-Beaut-Shellawax-Cream
It says in the directions to allow to dry before buffing (with a cloth, I assume)......you agree with that?

When you mention EEE, are you talking about Shellawax paste wax:
http://www.woodturnerscatalog.com/p/17/1536/U-Beaut-EEE-Ultra-Shine-Paste-Wax?term=friction polish
If I understand correctly, you are using the EEE after the initial application of the Shellawax friction polish?
Directions here say to use it prior to the friction polish......???

How many coats of the friction polish, and EEE do you use?

Pretty expensive stuff, but the one review is pretty stellar!

ooc
 

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.... When you mention EEE, are you talking about Shellawax paste wax....

EEE is just another way of saying Tripoli (triple E) -- the stuff that you put on your Beale buffing wheel. For some reason, the idea of mixing the buffing compound with wax just seems wrong to me -- like perhaps it might muddy the finish a bit. A lot of people do it so maybe it works.
 

odie

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EEE is just another way of saying Tripoli (triple E) -- the stuff that you put on your Beale buffing wheel. For some reason, the idea of mixing the buffing compound with wax just seems wrong to me -- like perhaps it might muddy the finish a bit. A lot of people do it so maybe it works.
OK, got it Bill......that's a new expression for me.......

ooc
 
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have you considered Wipe-in Poly, General Finishes "Woodturner's Finish" or Waterlox?

all work very well for bowls and probably much easier to finish than a friction polish.
 
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Odie - To answer your question: I've used both Mylands and Shellawax and don't recall preferring one to the other. It may be that one has more solids (so it would build faster and would cost more to make) than the other. If so, since I wasn't using both at the same time, I didn't notice such a difference. I'd go with whichever is cheapest.

Having said that, I'd never use a friction polish on a bowl that was intended to be handled. The wax/shellac finish is too soft to hold up and shows fingerprints. If I wanted a film finish on a bowl, I'd use Deft's brushing lacquer. It's very quick to apply. (I friction it on just like Mylands or Shellawax.) And it's much more durable.

HTH
 

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I tried mylands for a while on my hand mirrors and found the finish didn't handle up well to handling. Used to use HUT finishes a lot in the early days. don't remember why I quit using it. I think it was on wine stoppers and it didn't hold up well if you actually used them. You won't have to spin a bowl all that fast. The surface speed will be greater on the outside edges. I remember having to play with the speed on my mirrors because the middle would be hard to melt and require much more pressure from my hands while the outside required very light pressure. It was hard to get it even. On spindles it's quite easy to use.
 
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Hi Odie: I've used EEE cream for years..sand to 400-and hit it with this stuff and you have a 12,000 grit surface (or so claimed) that shines ..for production work, it gets it on the show table fast! I've had zero complaints about it. I have it on some pieces on my bragging shelves , and it looks good for years.
 
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A bit of Error Correction

Hughie posted above that a Shellawax finish will get harder over time due to cross-linking with oxygen. This appears to be a mistake in information. Both of the products being discussed are composed of a wax, a grade of shellac, and three solvents, ethanol 60%, and butanol and mineral turpentine at about 5% each. There are no drying oils or carriers to support a polymerization reaction such as Hughie referred to in his post. Neither shellac nor wax "cross-link" or cure to a modified film. Turpentine is traditionally used as a retarder for shellac finishing because it slows the evaporation rate of the primary ethanol solvent. The product's MSDS sheet specifically excludes any polymerization which is the process of cross-linking with oxygen to form a film.

The point here is that potential users should not expect these finishes to get harder after their solvents fully evaporate, or get more durable over time. Both wax and shellac are dissolved in the carrier solvents and the finish film is created by the solvents evaporating leaving a layer of waxey shellac behind. The hardness of these friction finishes depends not on a curing process but on the hardness of the shellac and wax used in the formulations.

PS: Just a further note, both shellac and wax are readily dissolved by alcohol, so there is no alcohol resistance to the finishes produced by these products.
 
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I use my own mix, that is a carry over from my antique restoration days. I has beeswax, Linseed oil, turpentine, Carnauba wax. I try to use the best I can get of each, but the stuff lasts a long time. I use it on all my personal stuff, especially my popcorn bowls. I usually rub in a couple of coats and then buff. It's not shinny though, just a soft glow.
 
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Kick it up a Notch

I use my own mix, that is a carry over from my antique restoration days. I has beeswax, Linseed oil, turpentine, Carnauba wax. I try to use the best I can get of each, but the stuff lasts a long time. I use it on all my personal stuff, especially my popcorn bowls. I usually rub in a couple of coats and then buff. It's not shinny though, just a soft glow.

Bill,

If you'd like a higher shine, try what I did. Warm your oil (I used tung instead of linseed because of the darkening issue) on an electric hot plate (no flame allowed here!) and add your bees wax stirring until it melts and dissolves in the oil. Shave your Carnauba and add it. When that melts and blends, allow to cool but before it starts to gel, add the turps plus some 3-lb. cut mixed shellac and blend the mix vigorously (I used an immersion blender) for 5-6 minutes or until you get a nice creamy liquid. You can adjust the viscosity by adding more turps and oil. Higher gloss needs more shellac. Store in an air-tight jar or bottle. The combination of the drying oil and the shellac resins should give you a very high shine. Smells good too! ;)
 
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I will try the shellac, my carnauba wax is in bead form so I can add just what I want each time. I don't really care for the high gloss, but that's just personal taste, but I have friends who like my mix but want more shine and I'm always testing new stuff, cause you never know and it's fun. I try to keep a log of all the failures and triumphs, as it gives me a place to start with new ideas.
 
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I will try the shellac, my carnauba wax is in bead form so I can add just what I want each time. I don't really care for the high gloss, but that's just personal taste, but I have friends who like my mix but want more shine and I'm always testing new stuff, cause you never know and it's fun. I try to keep a log of all the failures and triumphs, as it gives me a place to start with new ideas.

If your current mix is in liquid form, adding liquid shellac should not present an issue, but you'll need to stir and blend it in well. I used the immersion blender but you could probably do the same thing with a small kitchen whisk and an electric drill or an electric mixer with removable hoops that you can clean after use. A manufacturer might add an emulsifiing agent to keep the various ingredients mixed, but I've no clue what to use. I kept my stuff in a 1-quart squeeze bottle and just shook it up each time.

PS: You'll get a higher shine just by eliminating the bees wax which is very soft. Might want to try that before adding shellac.
 
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If you Google the Ubeut site it will tell you all about their Shellawax EEE and shellawax cream I use their products on pens and bowls the cream is better for bowls over about 200mm as the Shellawax shellac base one dries to quick for the larger pieces the EEE is basicly a fine cutting polish in a wax base.
 
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Wasn't going to weigh in on this one, but have to clear up some misinformation.

First, the U-Beaut folks do have a proprietary formulation of shellac that is NOT standard run of the mill shellac. It has a monomeric additive that actually does establish a crosslink configuration with the hydroxyl radicals that exist in natural shellac. Becomes a sort of polymer, composed of a combination of shellac molecules (which are actually a mixture of two or three naturally occurring chemical compounds) and the monomeric additive (very likely a vinyl relative,if not vinyl itself). Once dry, the shellac and additive start to crosslink. This occurs over a two week period at normal room temperature. Can be sped up if heated to higher temps. After the crosslink is complete, the shellac part of Shellawax is impervious to alcohol and acids.

You can purchase an additive, which may be the exact stuff they use, from a luthier supply company in Australia. Also, U-Beaut sells a product, called Hard Shellac, which is the stuff they use in making Shellawax.

I do not care for Shellawax. It is rather expensive, and actually does not last as long as straight Hard Shellac does. The waxes in it interrupt the crosslinking, so that the final "skin" has voids that can allow oils, acids, and other corrosives through to mess up your finish over time if handled a lot.

You really would be better off making your own friction polish using Hard Shellac as a base. Better yet, get the shellac additive to make hard shellac from the Luthier supply house, and make your own hard shellac with fresh blonde shellac flakes cut to 2 pounds. cheaper and better in my opinion than the U-Beaut Hard Shellac stuff.
 
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Thanks for the additional info, Jeff. Since their MSDS rules out polymerization completely, there can't be an actual polymer involved. I've also heard of dewaxed shellac referred to as "hardened" because removal of the wax results in a harder final film. I've met several luthiers who make their own "waxy" shellac finish by taking dewaxed shellac and blending in one of the harder waxes. Have to ask them about the additional ingredient you mention.
 

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This excerpt from a paper might be of interrest -- Journal of Coatings Technology and Research (click on Look Inside).

Another article in Surface Engineering -- Surface treatments of wood by chemically modified shellac is a bit more more in-depth if you like chemistry.

BTW, regular shellac gradually cross-links over time. Even the dry flakes will get where they are insoluble in alcohol. I also have first hand confirmation of that. I found some super blonde dewaxed flakes that were probably 15 years old in a plastic jar with a plastic screw on lid (not a perfect seal I would guess). The flakes got sort of rubbery, but never did dissolve.
 
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Some information on Shellawax products from the manufacturer......

According to Ubeaut, the manufacturer, the EEE Shellawax Ultra-shine is to be used as a prep for using in conjunction with the Shellawax crème. This information is the same information given on the CSUSA site. This doesn't seem to concur with information from those who have used these products and posted to this thread.

Here is a link to some additional information on the Ubeaut site about the use of Shellawax products. Although I do find some of this information to be a little ambiguous, it does seem to be consistent with the notion that the two products, when doing larger turnings (not spindle work), that the key to success is surface preparation.....sanding up to 1200,1500,2000 grit, particularly when the EEE Shellawax is not used in prep. I don't even have any sandpaper finer than 600 grit anymore!

http://www.ubeaut.com.au/swinfo.html

Since my bowls have many places difficult to sand, because of accessibility, it looks like the most professional results aren't likely to be had, unless I use both products.....and the best possible results are my requirements.

ooc
 
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The MSDS only needs to list the "hazardous" chemicals in a product. Not every ingredient is ever included. I'm not sure exactly which chemicals, and in what amounts are considered hazardous and, hence need to be included in the MSDS. I do know, that the law was written specifically loose to prevent companies from having to reveal trade secret formulae.

I actually have been using the Additive to Formulate Hard Shellac, from the Wood Works Luthier Supplies in Australia, and can tell you that the additive smells vaguely familiar to me. I would not be surprised to find that it does in fact contain a vinyl or other plastic monomer in solution.

I have read EVERY scientific article about shellac, and wood coatings, plus some boring as heck articles about other coatings and polymer science. Having been forced to take several semesters of organic chemistry in college and med school, I SORT OF understand PART of all of them. Yes, shellac does crosslink with itself over a long period of time, dependent upon environmental variables. For us wood turners though, the time required to cause crosslinking is way too long for it to be practical. You can't tell someone not to use that pepper mill for 2 to 3 months or years!

I have tried some multifunctional aziridine crosslinkers, but they must be mixed with the shellac just before use, as they crosslink in solution, and this occurs rather quickly. I don't think wood turners would want a two part friction polish finish (I don't). Kinda defeats the whole purpose of an easy to apply durable finish.

So far the home made hard shellac (using the additive) and tung oil friction polish I have been making works the best for me. I do not add wax any more. I find that the wax makes the finish less durable and reduces the pot life of the finish. I also do not like the already mixed up Hard Shellac from U Beaut. Maybe it's just me.

I still like sprayed lacquer for very heavily handled and super shine requiring objects.
 

odie

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I don't think wood turners would want a two part friction polish finish (I don't). Kinda defeats the whole purpose of an easy to apply durable finish.

Howdy Jeff........

I believe there are many turners who feel as you do, and it's obvious that there are those who value speed over performance. It was my initial thinking that a single step friction polish would be very desirable, but the bottom line is I'm not willing to sacrifice performance for speed. Even with 2-step friction polish, it might be faster than the Beale 3-step system, I've been using. The Beale system works well, but the average time it takes is around 1/2 to 3/4 hour per bowl, when done is sets of 2-3 at a time. (Doing more than 2-3 at a time just takes too long a session for me.......getting old!)

Anyone know how well a friction polish will work over Danish oil? It says that it will work when used over dyes......and, Danish oil is similar, in that it soaks into the wood, not on the surface.

A lower cost alternative to the Shellawax, may be to go with Dr. Kirks EEE polishing wax, along with the Myland's friction polish.......

ooc
 
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Odie,

I have both Ultrashhine and Dr. Kirks, and have even experimented with adding various grits of rottenstone to wax. Honestly, the Utrashine is a far superior product in my opinion. The Dr. kirks is cheaper, and causes less of a wood darkening, but seems much less abrasive. The Ultrashine starts out fairly aggressive then seems to lighten up as you go. I also actually like its tendency to bring out the grain by slightly darkening the wood. I also feel that it may increase the perception of chatoyance in those wood species that display that.

Any of the shellac based finishes should be completely compatible with any natural wax or oil product. Combining oil based (and hence, hydrophobic) finish with water based ones is ill-advised. I have used Shellaway, and Mylands, and my shellac based friction polish over BLO, Danish Oil, and Tung Oil. I think though that by mixing the oil with the shellac, you. An probably skip the oil soak altogether. If you really like Danish Oil, perhaps you can mix that with the shellac and DNA, instead of the usual BLO or Tung oil (that I prefer).

I just am making a batch of my polish, and would be happy to ship a container out to you if you will PM me with your address. Check it out on something that you can afford to screw up, just in case the learning curve is steeper than I remember. I will, of course provide some tips based on my experiences. You might like it s much as I do. Far cheaper than the commercial stuff.
 

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.... I do know, that the law was written specifically loose to prevent companies from having to reveal trade secret formulae.

Now, that's a scary thought: a loose law is like a loose cannon rolling around the deck of a ship in stormy seas. You never know which way it will be pointed. :D

I am sure that you didn't mean that companies are prevented from revealing their trade secrets, but rather they are allowed to not reveal certain proprietary information. That doesn't give them a free pass on not revealing any hazardous substances that are a part of their "secret sauce".

.... I have read EVERY scientific article about shellac, and wood coatings, plus some boring as heck articles about other coatings and polymer science.

Jeff that is down right impressive :)

Al

Staggering even, given that there likely has been hundreds, if not thousands, of papers and articles over the past century, many in other languages, and not counting the very probable ancient scholarly papyrus (papyri?) that were scribed during the Gupta Empire in India, the Ming Dynasty in China, and maybe even during the time of the Pharaohs in Egypt. :rolleyes:
 
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odie

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Odie,

I have both Ultrashhine and Dr. Kirks, and have even experimented with adding various grits of rottenstone to wax. Honestly, the Utrashine is a far superior product in my opinion. The Dr. kirks is cheaper, and causes less of a wood darkening, but seems much less abrasive. The Ultrashine starts out fairly aggressive then seems to lighten up as you go. I also actually like its tendency to bring out the grain by slightly darkening the wood. I also feel that it may increase the perception of chatoyance in those wood species that display that.

Any of the shellac based finishes should be completely compatible with any natural wax or oil product. Combining oil based (and hence, hydrophobic) finish with water based ones is ill-advised. I have used Shellaway, and Mylands, and my shellac based friction polish over BLO, Danish Oil, and Tung Oil. I think though that by mixing the oil with the shellac, you. An probably skip the oil soak altogether. If you really like Danish Oil, perhaps you can mix that with the shellac and DNA, instead of the usual BLO or Tung oil (that I prefer).

I just am making a batch of my polish, and would be happy to ship a container out to you if you will PM me with your address. Check it out on something that you can afford to screw up, just in case the learning curve is steeper than I remember. I will, of course provide some tips based on my experiences. You might like it s much as I do. Far cheaper than the commercial stuff.

Jeff......Great food for thought here, and I appreciate your taking the time to respond. I don't know if using my usual Danish oil in combination with the friction polish is in the cards, or not, at this point. All this is purely experimental and conjecture on my part for the time being. If results using a friction polish without using Danish oil is acceptable, and faster.....then it may be worth more consideration and experimenting. Using, or not using the Danish oil is strictly a possible option.....not a requirement. The Beale buffing system works well (with one or two minor inconveniences that I've learned to overcome with practice), and I'm not planning on eliminating that method. My purpose is to give myself additional options that may have a different visual effect and might be faster......and, without some "hands on" time with it, I just don't know if a friction polish would be useful to my needs.

I appreciate, and thank you for your very generous offer of having some of your specially mixed friction polish. I may want some, but for now, I'll have some commercially available concoctions coming with my next order at CSUSA. What I need to do is play around with it some, and see what I can do with it prior to making an assessment of the results. If I do find a friction polish to satisfy the projected benefits, then having some source that is reliable and repeatable is a consideration that will be an important factor for my wanting to use it, or not......

A question that I need to answer is how this friction polish will apply for someone like me, who is a dedicated faceplate turner......? The friction polish may be faster because it's done while still on the lathe and spinning, but with a waste block installed, how will finishing the foot completely separate from the rest of the bowl be effected? Questions like this won't be unanswered without doing some actual experimenting.....or having the "stick time".

ooc
 
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NP Odie.

I didn't mean to sound silly about having read all the articles There are on shellac. The fact is that their just aren't that many articles out there that actually deal directly with shellac for wood finishing. There are hundreds of articles about shellac for pill coatings or nail polish but only about a dozen decent scientific articles about using shellac as a wood coating. Half of the articles I found are from the Far East (India and Malaysia). Apparently,mowing to the price and availability, shellac is still a major finishing product there.

As far as modifying shellac to enhance its durability, there are only about 5 or 6 good articles out there. All but one or two deal with adding crosslinkers. The couple remaining articles talk about mixing it with various natural and artificial resins to form an enhanced film. Not much different from what violin makers have been doing for centuries with copal, sandrac, gum Arabic, and several others.

I've breezed through some ancient books on the topic as well. Google is a great resource, and they have scanned many thousands of old text book and manuals. They can be searched and read on line as PDF files.

There are also a load of forums on the net dealing with wood finishing for musical instruments (luthier sciences). A lot of heresy and rumor, very little science.

I think for now, I'll just keep using what works for me. Like everything else in wood turning (and life), Im Sure that my tastes will change with time.
 
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Hi Jeff,

Would you share a US source for the shellac "hardener" that you use? Since dewaxed shellac is part of my wood finishing routine for flatwork (tie-coat and sanding sealer), I'm very interested to see if I can improve the coating's performance in my application. The article that Bill linked to seemed to indicate an increase in shelf-life by reduction of esterification in the mixed solution. What's your experience with the pot life of your mix?

TIA
 
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Different creatures. That article used a multifunctional polyaziridine crosslinker. That chemical indescriminately crosslinks free hyroxyl groups IN SOLUTION. Of all the available azyridine (or related crosslinking agents) that I've been able to find (and I have checked with most of the suppliers), once mixed, you will have a maximum pot life of 100 hours. These things are designed to be used in two part coatings, to be combined just before application. I have actually gotten a hold of several different samples, and can not make it last more than a few hours when mixed with any useful concentration of shellac. I believe that shellac hardeners that will have at least as long a shelf life as the shellac itself, need to be something that crosslinks when dry. As far as I can tell, other than the well known naturally occurring resins (like sandrac and copal), you need to use a liquid, non-hydrophylic (oil soluble), plastic monomer (like a vinyl). These are known to crosslink with shellac (and other finishes) over time when dry. They do not react well in solution, giving mixtures like that a rather long pot/shelf life.

Other studies, in which shellac has been made more resistant to degradation by solvents, the pH or other variable of the solution has been altered. These have proved successful in many cases, but they ALWAYS seem to make the shellac softer when dried. I don't need a finish that resists alcohols and acids, but becomes dented from resting on a table. That works fine for pill coatings (most of this research is done for the pharma industry), but not so much for finishing my wood turnings.

As for the stuff I've been using, which works very very well, the only place from where it can be purchased as far as I know is from The Wood Works, in Australia. Here is the link:

http://www.thewoodworks.com.au/shop...-to-formulate-hard-shellac-for-500ml?vmcchk=1

Price is actually very reasonable. I usually buy 2 at a time to save on the shipping and international transaction fees. Each container is a 500 ml plastic bottle with about 50 ml of hardener additive. You add shellac to fill the bottle, shake it up and let it sit for 72 hours, then use it as you would any shellac.It will last almost indefinitely until mixed with shellac, after which it has a stated shelf life of up to 18 months. I have mixed some up that has lasted me over a year. I start to get nervous with any shellac-based finish after that time, and simply discard any that I've mixed up longer ago than that.
 
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Different creatures. That article used a multifunctional polyaziridine crosslinker. That chemical indescriminately crosslinks free hyroxyl groups IN SOLUTION. Of all the available azyridine (or related crosslinking agents) that I've been able to find (and I have checked with most of the suppliers), once mixed, you will have a maximum pot life of 100 hours. These things are designed to be used in two part coatings, to be combined just before application. I have actually gotten a hold of several different samples, and can not make it last more than a few hours when mixed with any useful concentration of shellac. I believe that shellac hardeners that will have at least as long a shelf life as the shellac itself, need to be something that crosslinks when dry. As far as I can tell, other than the well known naturally occurring resins (like sandrac and copal), you need to use a liquid, non-hydrophylic (oil soluble), plastic monomer (like a vinyl). These are known to crosslink with shellac (and other finishes) over time when dry. They do not react well in solution, giving mixtures like that a rather long pot/shelf life.

Other studies, in which shellac has been made more resistant to degradation by solvents, the pH or other variable of the solution has been altered. These have proved successful in many cases, but they ALWAYS seem to make the shellac softer when dried. I don't need a finish that resists alcohols and acids, but becomes dented from resting on a table. That works fine for pill coatings (most of this research is done for the pharma industry), but not so much for finishing my wood turnings.

As for the stuff I've been using, which works very very well, the only place from where it can be purchased as far as I know is from The Wood Works, in Australia. Here is the link:

http://www.thewoodworks.com.au/shop...-to-formulate-hard-shellac-for-500ml?vmcchk=1

Price is actually very reasonable. I usually buy 2 at a time to save on the shipping and international transaction fees. Each container is a 500 ml plastic bottle with about 50 ml of hardener additive. You add shellac to fill the bottle, shake it up and let it sit for 72 hours, then use it as you would any shellac.It will last almost indefinitely until mixed with shellac, after which it has a stated shelf life of up to 18 months. I have mixed some up that has lasted me over a year. I start to get nervous with any shellac-based finish after that time, and simply discard any that I've mixed up longer ago than that.

After having gotten "sideways" with cold checking of shellac tie /tone coats under acrylic lacquers, I don't keep mixed shellac more than 6 months. Pot life of a year would be a significant improvement for me.

Thanks
 
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Hi Jeff,

Having gone through the link, and made a few inquiries, I'm wondering:

a) Am I correct that you are mixing about a pint (500 ml) of finish (they call it "polish") at a time? Reading through the lit they state the mix to be a 4 lb cut of premixed shellac but actually direct a 2lb. cut (1kg to 4 L - 2.2lbs to 1.05 gal), so which do you use?

b) They also try to discourage "Hardware Store" DNA in favor of much more expensive mixing alcohol. What do you use? I personally use Parks DNA which comes through at about 90+% ethanol, but I've never tested it for water content.


$18/pt seems rather steep for wood finish, especially when good acrylic lacquer can be had for less than $50/gal, and waterbornes that exceed KCMA standards can be bought at $70/gal that will beat a hardened shellac finish on durability.
 
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They seemed to have changed their instructions over the last few years. I suspect that real world experience has shown that a 4 pound cut works as well as 2. I have been using a 2 pound cut, but may try using 4 next time.

I use Crown DNA, and have zero issues. I wonder if, in Australia, getting decent DNA is more difficult. Perhaps they have other additives that don't play well with shellac. I suspect that any good quality DNA will work just fine.

Honestly, since I use it to make friction polish, it lasts quite a long time. I can make 1500 ml of polish from one container of hardened shellac. At the rate you use the stuff, that lasts a LONG time!

Remember too, that I use this stuff to make a finish that gives a very specific feel and look. Of course, you can spray lacquer (I still do for some things), but I can't find a more warm, deep, and "woody" finish with as much shine as I get from shellac and oil friction polish. It just wants to be touched. Not plasticky at all. Very organic. It's not for everything. Definitely an art piece finish. Wouldn't use it for pens or pepper mills.
 
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Thanks, Jeff,

I was looking to amplify my finish routine on flatwork (I rarely use "shiney" for turnings) and address a particular problem with using shellac under waterbornes. The cost-benefit analysis tells me to keep what I do for flatwork. It's been a learning experience and again, thanks for your information. I believe I'll also stick with my old friction polish formula if I drop my guard and get roped into another spindle job.:D

M
 
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As an aside, I've used this mixture as a hand rubbed finish as well, with good results. Once dry for a few days, I buff it up to the level of shine I desire. Here's a recent sample.
 

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If your current mix is in liquid form, adding liquid shellac should not present an issue, but you'll need to stir and blend it in well. I used the immersion blender but you could probably do the same thing with a small kitchen whisk and an electric drill or an electric mixer with removable hoops that you can clean after use. A manufacturer might add an emulsifiing agent to keep the various ingredients mixed, but I've no clue what to use. I kept my stuff in a 1-quart squeeze bottle and just shook it up each time.

PS: You'll get a higher shine just by eliminating the bees wax which is very soft. Might want to try that before adding shellac.

It is in paste wax form. Kind of like a car wax. To add the shellac I would have to bring it back to liquid(heat) and then blend it in. This is not soft with the addition of carnauba wax and it dries very quickly and buffs out well. I use on most of my personal stuff, bowls, knife handles, etc. stuff I sell or gifts, get Lacquer semi-gloss (stupid Deft people I've had to switch brands).
 
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It is in paste wax form. Kind of like a car wax. To add the shellac I would have to bring it back to liquid(heat) and then blend it in. This is not soft with the addition of carnauba wax and it dries very quickly and buffs out well. I use on most of my personal stuff, bowls, knife handles, etc. stuff I sell or gifts, get Lacquer semi-gloss (stupid Deft people I've had to switch brands).

If what you have works for you, there's no reason to change.

Just a note to the "file", Carnauba dissolves quite well in Xylene of you want a more liquid product without cooking the mix. I'd suggest, however, to wear nitrile gloves when applying, but that's probably wise with any finish containing solvents. Woodwoorkers are far too casual (me included) about exposure to solvents and such.
 
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