Which is more important.......

Discussion in 'Woodturning Discussion Forum' started by odie, Dec 6, 2017.

  1. JeffSmith

    JeffSmith

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    I’m left handed - most of my life I’ve learned (gained knowledge) on how something is done, then adapted it to my strongest way of performing the same skill. Learned to hit a baseball right handed first, then shifted to left when I understood the mechanics of the skill. I approached turning the same way. Early mentors invariably taught me the basics on the right side. As I gained both knowledge and experience I found my own way of doing it. I turn largely ambidextrously as a result, shifting from left to right as the work requires.
    So, for me, knowledge of the basics came first, then experience brought refinement and additional knowledge. The two are hopelessly entwined, at least in my case.
     
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  2. Tom Albrecht

    Tom Albrecht

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    Yer deep Odie. But even that time spent "searching for answers someone else might give" is part of the experience really. My point being that the only way we gain knowledge is through experience-- whether it is hands on, or theoretical.
     
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  3. Bill Boehme

    Bill Boehme Administrator Staff Member

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    Neither one. Plain old dumb luck wins every time. :D

    Seriously, it's the other way around ... your learning progress enhances your knowledge and experience repertoire so they are the result and not the cause.

    This reminded me of another thing about good and bad judgement:
    "Good judgement comes from experience ... and ...
    experience comes from bad judgement."​
     
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  4. Ely Walton

    Ely Walton

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    If you don't have KNOW-ledge, then you don't KNOW what you're doing... (cute, but I think it is the combination... like in school - having homework, lecture, and then followed by the lab work.)

    Ely
     
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  5. Emiliano Achaval

    Emiliano Achaval

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    I gained my knowledge thru experience. There was no internet when I started, no you tube or a list of AAW proved videos. No club and very few turners on the island... After a few months of frustration I bought a Del Stubbs VHS tape, I would watch it in the house and run to the shop... Then I got a Raffan book... Then my good friend Cole Warren said, come and watch me turn... Knowledge and experience, almost like there should be one word...
     
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  6. odie

    odie

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    I probably had the same Del Stubbs tape.....the one where he adapted a foot pedal to release the tension on the drive belt between the spindle and motor? I also had the Raffan book. I can remember studying that book like I was prepping for a final exam! ;) His first vhs tape was also a good one.....and, the John Jordan vhs tape. My very first tutoring (of sorts) was an old book on turning from the 1940's or 1950's. That one taught me many of the old ways of turning......studied that book, too! Over the years, I've acquired about a dozen more turning tapes......

    To make things clear, I do absolutely believe in getting some basic knowledge......but, I reject the notion that a continual exposure to instruction is a good thing. To my thinking, it will eventually work against controlling your own destiny to places your own ingenuity and creative instincts will take you. Most of us have been exposed to "over educated idiots" in our lifetimes. These "know-it-all" people can't be convinced that "time in the saddle" is far more important than knowing all the taught formulas for success. Is there a correlation there?......yes, I do believe there is something there that can be applied to woodturning, and some people who pursue it! :eek:

    To be sure.....there are plenty of turners who have loads of experience, but they still struggle to get beyond rudimentary accomplishments. We do need to get beyond any belief that all individuals are equal in their ability to explore possibilities, and to separate successes from failing ideas. Also, there are those who are satisfied with less than what could be, and then there are those who continually re-define their priorities. :D

    -----odie-----
     
  7. Fred Belknap

    Fred Belknap

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    Ever try to tell someone how to ride a bicycle.
     
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  8. odie

    odie

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    [​IMG]
     
  9. hockenbery

    hockenbery AAW Advisor Staff Member

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    There is a whole lot of instruction available on how to ride.
    There are coaches and trainers at the high end.

    When I learned I watched what others did. People pushed me and let go.

    These are the fundamental elements of most woodturning classes
    The instructor does a demo the students do. The instructor gives a “push” as needed.
    Most classes are mostly doing.
     
    Last edited: Dec 7, 2017
  10. john lucas

    john lucas

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    I took a class once on technical writing. They asked us to tell someone how to ride a bike. Very difficult. We also were given a really odd sort of leggo structure. We were instructed to take it apart and then tell how to build it. Everyone in the class had one. Then we traded and gave the disassembled structure to other participants along with our instructions on how to reassemble it. Man that was an eye opener. You learn really quickly how easy it is to misinterpret the written word.
    Ideally a good instructor is a motivator. Making you want to learn and want to aquire more knowledge. Hopefully they also inspire you to get in the shop and gain experience which enhances the knowledge.
     
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  11. Doug Rasmussen

    Doug Rasmussen

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    I find often as not individual's supposed knowledge is actually opinion. Opinion is a view or judgment formed about something, not necessarily based on fact or knowledge.

    I would say experience is most important.
     
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  12. Mike Johnson

    Mike Johnson

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    Lets not forget that thinking outside the box and trying new ideas and experimenting
    is the only way new discoveries are made.
     
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  13. John Torchick

    John Torchick

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    Technical writing??? Reminds me of instructions that are written by someone in a foreign country. Hard to read and/or understand.
     
  14. odie

    odie

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    Probably the most appropriate comment in this thread! :D

    This is where undisturbed footprints are left! ;)

    -----odie-----
     
  15. Robin Thompson

    Robin Thompson

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    Experience will provide knowledge.
     
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  16. Jon Minerich

    Jon Minerich

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    When I started turning a couple of years ago, it was all trial and error. That was slow and painful. I bought books and videos to gain some knowledge. (Used books and videos can be found and are cheap.). My turning improved a bit. I saved up enough for a one day class with an experienced turner to gain what I thought would be more knowledge. Much to my surprise, I didn’t learn “anything new”. It was the hands-on experience that the instructor shared with me that made a huge difference. The application of my knowledge and the correction of my errors by the instructor gave me the experience I needed to advance my skills. After thinking about this a while, I believe first you need knowledge and then you must apply that knowledge through experience.

    Having said all this, I still use trial and error. When I learn something on this website from you guys, I run out to my shop to try it. The successes and failures can sometimes be dramatic. . However, I have found a mentor in our local club, who gets a chuckle out of my less than successful attempts at new things. He then takes the time to show how to achieve success, by guiding me step by step (hands on) to the right way of accomplishing my task. So I believe it takes both knowledge and experience to improve our skills.
     
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  17. hockenbery

    hockenbery AAW Advisor Staff Member

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    Great description of what makes hands-on instruction so valuable.
    Knowing “what to do” is never quite the same as knowing “how to do”.

    Things like riding the bevel become known through experience. students often get it by observation and the feeling the sensation of the bevel lock in as they roll the tool edge into bevel contact. Those that miss the bevel contact will usually get to feel the sensation of the locked in bevel when the instructor makes a subtle adjustment to the body position, grip, or just moves the tool from the end of the handle while student remains in control of the tool. The feel of the bevel becomes part of the knowledge.
     
  18. John Torchick

    John Torchick

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    This has been an interesting thread. Experimenting reminds me of two things- 1. One time Thomas Edison said that he hadn't found a way to make a light bulb but knew of 2,000 ways not to make one. 2. If it wasn't for Thomas Edison inventing the light bulb, we would be watching TV by candlelight!
     
  19. Hy Tran

    Hy Tran

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    Today's much safer vehicles, with crumple zones etc. are designed and built using knowledge, derived from "virtual" experiments using finite element analysis. These virtual experiments can be performed much faster (and less expensively) than the old crash tests. You still do 1 or 2 crash test to make sure you didn't leave off a decimal point somewhere, but most of your design work is done theoretically.

    If I have knowledge of grain direction and its effect on cuts, that helps inform my trial-and-error, and I can acquire experience more quickly (don't go past the bottom of the cove, unless you are seeking special effects with torn grain).
     
  20. John Torchick

    John Torchick

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    Off topic for the first part? Hy Tran, it is my observation that the manufacturers put hundreds of $$$$ of safety equipment on cars. But.......my further observation is that there is not one penny spent on "building" a safer driver. I have driven from central Florida to Wisconsin to Texas to southern California. As my father once observed in Atlanta- "There has to be a God. Someone has to be looking out for these people." And people wonder why their car insurance is so high.
    As for wood turning- I like to putter around on the lathe and see what I can do with what tools I have. I have turned pen blanks with a roughing gouge, spindle gouge, skew, round nose scraper. The tools do a great job. Must be operator error that comes into play.
     

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