What species is this?

[odie]

I've had a couple of private messages concerning this bowl. Both feel this is not White Oak. One feels it may be Red Oak, and the other feels it's not Oak at all.

The background:

The "White Oak Crotch" identity was given to me by the person who sold this bowl block to me......someone in Iowa. I suspect it was someone who had a few pieces of this particular tree to sell, but was a private seller......not a dealer.

It is my opinion the species is indeed oak, but I am not completely sure about that......I just went with the information I was given. For sure, it does look like crotch figure, though. I have no clue as to the size of the tree, but I purchased all three pieces of this wood that were available, and this is the smallest of the three. All three pieces have had problems with cracking during the seasoning process, but I think I can fix them with epoxy. This one has epoxy repairs that turned out to my satisfaction......very hidden. The other two will be finish turned later......but probably not until after this one sells......(maybe) The other two pieces are roughed, but have been placed into storage.

The bowl is already posted in my Etsy shop, and is identified as white oak there. If that's incorrect, and I have no doubt about that at all, I'll have to change my listing. There is the disadvantage of not having the real thing in your hands for your own personal inspection. Photographs can be deceiving.....but, here are all five of the photos I have for you to make your own observations.

The moisture content of all three bowl blocks was +/- 24%. This is likely less than the MC at the time the tree was felled, so it appears the blocks did have some amount of storage time prior to them coming into my possession.

My usual reference is The Wood Data Base, and here is a link to the description of white oak there:
http://www.wood-database.com/white-oak/

So......what is your own thoughts on the identity of this bowl?

ko

 

[hockenbery]

It's hard to tell wood species by looking at a finished bowl.
It could be a hickory or pecan. Might be laurel oak which is a red oak that looks a lot like white oak.

I have not seen a white oak that dark but wood has a great deal of variation in color. It does seem to have pores too open for white oak and the rays in White oak are usually wider. Pores and rays more like what I see in laurel oak if it is an oak.

you can make an ID by examining a slice with a 10x magnifying glass and keying out cell structure elements with book like Hoadley's.

 

[robo hippy]

No idea. First thing I look for in oak, are the medullary rays, which I don't see here. Could be my eyes...

robo hippy

 

[odie]

No idea. First thing I look for in oak, are the medullary rays, which I don't see here. Could be my eyes...

robo hippy

Looks like quite a few here, robo........

 

[Tom Albrecht]

I have built a lot of white oak furniture (quartersawn) and I wondered about it when I first looked at your photos the other day--- did it smell like oak?

 

[Bill Boehme]

White oaks have very prominent medullary rays and they should be especially prominent about midway between the side grain and end grain areas on the bowl. The pattern of the pores on the end grain is also very distinctive.

Could you take another picture with a white index card next to the bowl? That would help me better judge the color of the wood.

 

[Raul McCai]

nice bowl like the finish - especially if it is indeed oak.

 

[odie]

I have built a lot of white oak furniture (quartersawn) and I wondered about it when I first looked at your photos the other day--- did it smell like oak?

I'm not so sure I could identify oak by the smell, Tom.......

White oaks have very prominent medullary rays and they should be especially prominent about midway between the side grain and end grain areas on the bowl. The pattern of the pores on the end grain is also very distinctive.

Could you take another picture with a white index card next to the bowl? That would help me better judge the color of the wood.

Here, Bill......I can do better than that......I retrieved the other two bowl blanks to photograph them. The one on the left has very prominent medullary rays.....I think. The two roughed bowls are setting on some white shelving. They still have anchorseal on the surface, so they appear a little darker than a bare surface would be.......

Also......I did an online search for white oak medullary rays, and came up with this photo from "contractor talk":

I'm seeing a whole lot of similarity here........

ko

 

[Bill Boehme]

That's definitely oak. It could be red oak or white oak, but I'm leaning slightly towards white oak. I copied the pictures that you posted at the beginnings of this thread and used Photoshop to enhance the details. After close examination I could see some of the medullary rays in the end grain and a bit of the ray flecks in other areas. The things that threw me off was the wide growth rings and the pores which don't appear to have tyloses because the finish has soaked into the pores. Also, some of what I saw in your bowl and assumed to be wavy grain figure might be ray flecks. While pictures supposedly don't lie, they also don't always tell the whole truth.

Anyway the question now is whether the wood is red oak or white oak. You can't reliably go by color, but end grain s the best way to tell the difference. Here's a link to the Wood Database on telling the difference. If you still can't decide, the sodium nitrite test is the ultimate way to answer the question.

The picture that you got from Contractor Talk is quarter sawn which gives you the most dramatic figure.

 

[odie]

That's definitely oak. It could be red oak or white oak, but I'm leaning slightly towards white oak. I copied the pictures that you posted at the beginnings of this thread and used Photoshop to enhance the details. After close examination I could see some of the medullary rays in the end grain and a bit of the ray flecks in other areas. The things that threw me off was the wide growth rings and the pores which don't appear to have tyloses because the finish has soaked into the pores. Also, some of what I saw in your bowl and assumed to be wavy grain figure might be ray flecks. While pictures supposedly don't lie, they also don't always tell the whole truth.

Anyway the question now is whether the wood is red oak or white oak. You can't reliably go by color, but end grain s the best way to tell the difference. Here's a link to the Wood Database on telling the difference. If you still can't decide, the sodium nitrite test is the ultimate way to answer the question.

The picture that you got from Contractor Talk is quarter sawn which gives you the most dramatic figure.

Because of the crotch figure, the grain pattern is very wavy, and tends to not clearly represent the pores......except for one little spot, the end grain isn't clearly shown......but, my best guess, as you also felt, is this is white oak. The pores are not clearly defined, as in red oak, so there may be tyloses in there. I do have one bowl on hand that is definitely red oak, and the pores are more clearly open.....shown here:

Since I can't for sure determine the pores on the questionable "white oak" bowl are not completely open, like red oak would be......I think it's safe to call the bowl in question white oak.

Thanks for the article Bill.......

ko

 

[Gretch Flo]

Nice picture Odie. The wide annular rings fooled me, but I have seen some in my firewood logs that had wide annular rings, and the sap wood had spalted some which is rare in my "neck of the woods" for oak.
The wood had so much figure, that the rays were obscured to my eye. Your unfinished ones are gorgeous!!!,
Wish I knew more about wood-gets confusing with what part of the tree/angle of cut, and various parts of a bowl show "what". Gretch

 

[Tom Albrecht]

White oak. Very nice finishing. Did you stain or color the featured bowl? I used to stain my white oak furniture by fumes in an ammonia tent. The longer you leave it in the tent the darker wood gets, and it's not just on the surface.

 

[odie]

Nice picture Odie. The wide annular rings fooled me, but I have seen some in my firewood logs that had wide annular rings, and the sap wood had spalted some which is rare in my "neck of the woods" for oak.
The wood had so much figure, that the rays were obscured to my eye. Your unfinished ones are gorgeous!!!,
Wish I knew more about wood-gets confusing with what part of the tree/angle of cut, and various parts of a bowl show "what". Gretch

Me too, Gretch.........I'm not nearly as knowledgeable about the particulars of different woods and species, as I would like to be......or should be. This, although I have worked with a great variety of different kinds of woods in the past. I have a feeling I'm not the only one who has learned a thing or two in this thread!

Yes, I agree......these two roughed white oak bowls are very promising.....and, I'm very much looking forward to seeing how they turn out. For now, though.....I've got other bowls on the front burner!

White oak. Very nice finishing. Did you stain or color the featured bowl? I used to stain my white oak furniture by fumes in an ammonia tent. The longer you leave it in the tent the darker wood gets, and it's not just on the surface.

Tom.....I used Watco Danish Oil Natural. This finish always does tend to darken woods a little bit.

Don't believe I've ever heard about an "ammonia tent".......Is there any information about this technique? I've done some lighter colored maple burls lately, and if I could darken them a little, without them looking unnatural, I think they might look great. I did try some darker stains, but never did feel they looked very good......too unnatural looking......and, I really hate the "fake" look for this particular application........:mad:

ko

 

[Bill Boehme]

The ammonia is the industrial strength stuff like what is used for making blueprints if anybody still does that. The tent is needed because you do it outdoors well away from any dwelling and the tent is necessary to keep the fumes confined where you have the piece of furniture that is being treated. You pour some ammonia in a shallow pan, close the tent and let the ammonia darken the oak. This was popular on Craftsman/Mission style furniture. I just used stain, but the look of pigment stain isn't quite the same as the real deal.

 

[R Henrickson]

Don't believe I've ever heard about an "ammonia tent".......Is there any information about this technique? I've done some lighter colored maple burls lately, and if I could darken them a little, without them looking unnatural, I think they might look great. I did try some darker stains, but never did feel they looked very good......too unnatural looking......and, I really hate the "fake" look for this particular application........:mad:

I think this must refer to fuming. Google is your friend -- there's a fair bit out there, but much of it makes it harder than it need be. Despite many of the sources saying to use 25% strength ammonia, common household ammonia (5%) works well and is far less dangerous. All you need a plastic storage tote big enough to hold what you want to fume. 1-2 cups are more than enough -- for one of those bowls, probably a cup would do. Put the ammonia in a shallow pan or some container-- I just use several of the screw-off caps from laundry detergent jugs. Close the top of the tote. Within a couple hours you should see noticeable darkening. I generally leave it 18-24 hours.

Fuming has many advantages. It's easy. Even after a few hours the color should be noticeable. After 18-24 hours, the darkening will have penetrated to as much as 1/8". The darkening develops slowly so you have control over its degree. It does not raise grain, so a nicely sanded surface will remain smooth. Given the penetration of the color, even light fine-grain finish sanding probably would not be evident.

It is dependent on the amount of tannin in the wood -- white oak is better than red (deeper, darker color). This is related to one problem -- sapwood has less tannin than heartwood, so it will darken less.

Do some trials with some of your cut-offs.

I love using fuming, especially with white oak. Far preferable to stains.

 

[R Henrickson]

The ammonia is the industrial strength stuff like what is used for making blueprints if anybody still does that. The tent is needed because you do it outdoors well away from any dwelling and the tent is necessary to keep the fumes confined where you have the piece of furniture that is being treated. You pour some ammonia in a shallow pan, close the tent and let the ammonia darken the oak. This was popular on Craftsman/Mission style furniture. I just used stain, but the look of pigment stain isn't quite the same as the real deal.

As I said in my reply to Odie -- household ammonia is entirely adequate, especially for items on the scale of turnings. Using a plastic storage tote, I do the job in my basement shop. There is no need to get involved with trying to find industrial strength, which is dangerous.

 

[Tom Albrecht]

The ammonia is the industrial strength stuff like what is used for making blueprints if anybody still does that. The tent is needed because you do it outdoors well away from any dwelling and the tent is necessary to keep the fumes confined where you have the piece of furniture that is being treated. You pour some ammonia in a shallow pan, close the tent and let the ammonia darken the oak. This was popular on Craftsman/Mission style furniture. I just used stain, but the look of pigment stain isn't quite the same as the real deal.

Odie is correct. Though you can use "Household Ammonia" it takes a lot longer. I don't think it works on woods like maple that don't have tannins, like oak. The story behind it is that it was first discovered when horse stalls were built of oak. The boards closer to the barn floor were stained from the ammonia fumes coming from the horse urine.

 

[odie]

I think I'd like to try this on some of my cutoffs.

I have some glass cleaner with ammonia.......will that work?

If I did this inside a plastic lidded storage container........would that work?

Do you suspend the wood above the ammonia?

 

[robo hippy]

On the picture with 2 different oak pieces, the bowls show more of an end grain picture, and the board stock is quarter sawn. So one you are looking at end grain, and the other you are looking at side grain where the cut is made through the rays rather than across. The picture that shows the open pores, I would guess it is not white oak. Saw a Roy Underhill show where he demonstrated the difference between red and white oak. He split off a billet of red oak, stuck one end in a bucket of water and blew bubbles through it. Can't do that with white oak which is part of the reason it is used to make whiskey and wine barrels.

robo hippy

 

[Bill Boehme]

The amount of ammonia in glass cleaner is almost nothing. If you buy regular household ammonia it will work, but it just takes a long time. And, as mentioned the industrial stuff is dangerous to work with ... not sort of dangerous, but dangerous enough to kill you. I decided long ago that the TransTint Mission Oak dye stain was close enough for my needs.

 

[Tom Albrecht]

I wear an organic respirator when working with the good stuff. I am not sure where the Location of "Deep in the Woods" is Odie, but if you are anywhere near a large city you should be able to find some industrial ammonia. If you were anywhere near me, I could give you some to try.

 

[R Henrickson]

I think I'd like to try this on some of my cutoffs.

I have some glass cleaner with ammonia.......will that work?

If I did this inside a plastic lidded storage container........would that work?

Do you suspend the wood above the ammonia?

I use standard household cleaning ammonia, from the household cleaners aisle of the grocery store. Generic is fine -- just check that it is around 5%. I don't have any glass cleaner on hand to check its strength, but a gallon of the household stuff is only a dollar or two.

Using household ammonia may not be as fast as industrial, but it will do the job.

Lidded plastic storage containers are exactly what I use -- I'll try to attach a photo or two. For larger volumes I use more ammonia.


The wood doesn't need to be suspended above the ammonia -- the ammonia just needs to be in the container. I put the ammonia in small containers around the wood. I would suggest, however that the wood not rest directly on the bottom of the container, especially if (like a bowl!) it has a wide flat resting surface, or even a ring base..

For things with wide bases, I have used painter's pyramids (see photos), but my experience suggests you could probably get by with something that had more contact surface. Perhaps even the screw-off plastic caps from soft drinks or other jugs -- invert them so that the opening of the cap is in contact with the wood. I haven't tried that but suspect it would work.

I have found that when I've left things with small contact areas sitting on the bottom of the bin, I've gotten uniform color. I've also fumed things made up of multiple spindles tied together with string without problem (no 'shadow' under the string). I've even fumed spindle constructions with tenons fully inserted into mortises-- the darkening at the inner end of the tenon was just the same shade, and color penetrated just as deep into the wood. The main reason I can see to have the wood above the bottom of the bin is to avoid possible slopping of the ammonia.

I have seen suggestions that you can simply brush on the liquid ammonia, but that would most likely raise grain. Using the fumes does not.

The one thing that is absolutely crucial -- before fuming the wood cannot have ANY finish of any type on it, anything which would seal the surface in any way.

Because this is dependent on tannin content, the speed and degree of darkening (and color shade) will vary from tree to tree, or even board to board from one tree. Sapwood will darken to a LESSER degree. Any color difference between sap and heart wood BEFORE fuming will be markedly greater AFTER.

 

[Tom Albrecht]

And, the wood should be completely finish sanded.

 

[odie]

I use standard household cleaning ammonia, from the household cleaners aisle of the grocery store. Generic is fine -- just check that it is around 5%. I don't have any glass cleaner on hand to check its strength, but a gallon of the household stuff is only a dollar or two.

Using household ammonia may not be as fast as industrial, but it will do the job.

Lidded plastic storage containers are exactly what I use -- I'll try to attach a photo or two. For larger volumes I use more ammonia.
View attachment 21900 View attachment 21901

The wood doesn't need to be suspended above the ammonia -- the ammonia just needs to be in the container. I put the ammonia in small containers around the wood. I would suggest, however that the wood not rest directly on the bottom of the container, especially if (like a bowl!) it has a wide flat resting surface, or even a ring base..

For things with wide bases, I have used painter's pyramids (see photos), but my experience suggests you could probably get by with something that had more contact surface. Perhaps even the screw-off plastic caps from soft drinks or other jugs -- invert them so that the opening of the cap is in contact with the wood. I haven't tried that but suspect it would work.

I have found that when I've left things with small contact areas sitting on the bottom of the bin, I've gotten uniform color. I've also fumed things made up of multiple spindles tied together with string without problem (no 'shadow' under the string). I've even fumed spindle constructions with tenons fully inserted into mortises-- the darkening at the inner end of the tenon was just the same shade, and color penetrated just as deep into the wood. The main reason I can see to have the wood above the bottom of the bin is to avoid possible slopping of the ammonia.

I have seen suggestions that you can simply brush on the liquid ammonia, but that would most likely raise grain. Using the fumes does not.

The one thing that is absolutely crucial -- before fuming the wood cannot have ANY finish of any type on it, anything which would seal the surface in any way.

Because this is dependent on tannin content, the speed and degree of darkening (and color shade) will vary from tree to tree, or even board to board from one tree. Sapwood will darken to a LESSER degree. Any color difference between sap and heart wood BEFORE fuming will be markedly greater AFTER.

Thank you for taking the time to give this detailed description.........appreciated.

I just checked on the glass cleaner I have, and it doesn't say on the label what % ammonia it has......just says that it has ammonia. The ammonia smell is definitely there, though. If what I understand is correct, that the concentration isn't too important, and it will work just as well with longer exposure.....I should be good to go!

thanks........

ko

 

[R Henrickson]

Thank you for taking the time to give this detailed description.........appreciated.

I just checked on the glass cleaner I have, and it doesn't say on the label what % ammonia it has......just says that it has ammonia. The ammonia smell is definitely there, though. If what I understand is correct, that the concentration isn't too important, and it will work just as well with longer exposure.....I should be good to go!

thanks........

ko

It may be weak -- the household cleaning ammonia smells very strong to me, much more so than my memory of using WIndex. Try the glass cleaner, but you may be better off spending a dollar or two.

 

[Hugh]

Farmers use aqua ammonia for fertilizer. Show up at a fertilizer place with a container and they will usually give you a little. You do not need much. Aqua is about 25%.
If a wood has a low tannin content......you can paint tannin on the bowl and then do the fuming. I have heard that tea works also to add tannin.
Hugh

 

[Leo Van Der Loo]

I think I'd like to try this on some of my cutoffs.

I have some glass cleaner with ammonia.......will that work?

If I did this inside a plastic lidded storage container........would that work?

Do you suspend the wood above the ammonia?

Glass cleaner with ammonia won’t work, especially if it sat for some time, the ammonia will disappear, but Amazon does sell printers Ammonia, it’s about 25 to 30% strength.

But I’ve been told this stuff is used in drugs making, so think about having that sitting around, if you use it, be careful that stuff will damage your lungs in a heartbeat.

Do not use metal containers, but plastic will work just fine, do it outside in a good closeable container or under a plastic tent, an opaque tent or container will let you see how it is progressing and how dark it is, strong ammonia will show results quickly, other might take 24 hrs.

It will work on any wood with tannin in it, or where you add tannin to, tannin is used in the tanning of hides like making leather, and it can be purchased, even a strong Tea can be used to add tannin to a wood, wiped on or soaked into the wood, the ammonia can best be poured into a small plastic container and set in the tent/container, but the bowl or other should be set on thin pins, as all those places the ammonia can’t get to will stay as is.

 

[Bill Boehme]

The MSDS for Windex with Ammonia-D® (whatever ammonia-D might be) basically says that all of the VOC's combined is less than 0.2% and that there is no hazard whatsoever even if you get it in your eyes or ingest it. But, on the next page they also say to thoroughly yourself with plenty of soap and water if you get any on yourself. Probably CYA verbiage. From personal experience using the glass cleaner with ammonia, I think that it is more like a fragrance to make you think that it has special cleaning power. The household ammonia which is about 5% is far more potent. The industrial strength ammonia is a truly hazardous material and unless you really know what you are doing and have the necessary protective gear don't even think of messing with it. The fumes can knock you out before you know it and then you can die from asphyxiation (lack of oxygen).

Farmers use aqua ammonia for fertilizer. Show up at a fertilizer place with a container and they will usually give you a little. You do not need much. Aqua is about 25%.
If a wood has a low tannin content......you can paint tannin on the bowl and then do the fuming. I have heard that tea works also to add tannin.
Hugh

Are you speaking of aqueous ammonia? That would be ammonium hydroxide which is what is used in household ammonia and the industrial ammonia. I'm not familiar with it's use as an ag fertilizer. The dry ammonia fertilizer is ammonium nitrate and you need to be registered and approved by the Department of Homeland Security before you can purchase it. No free samples. I don't know if ammonium nitrate can be used for fuming oak, but my guess it that it wouldn't work.

 

[Dean Center]

if you are anywhere near a large city you should be able to find some industrial ammonia.

Tom,
Odie won't tell you, but he has to take a 2 hour bus ride to get to an airport from which he can fly to a large city.

 

[Bill Boehme]

Tom,
Odie won't tell you, but he has to take a 2 hour bus ride to get to an airport from which he can fly to a large city.

He has to paddle a canoe for two days before he can catch the bus.

On the first airplane, he has to ride on the pontoons because the inside is where the moose ride. On the next airplane ride, the pilot actually has a license.

 

[odie]

Tom,
Odie won't tell you, but he has to take a 2 hour bus ride to get to an airport from which he can fly to a large city.

He has to paddle a canoe for two days before he can catch the bus.

On the first airplane, he has to ride on the pontoons because the inside is where the moose ride. On the next airplane ride, the pilot actually has a license.

Heh,heh,heh.......we really do need an emoticon for LOL!

Besides all that, I have to get to the ariel tram every spring and fall...........no exceptions!
.....because I'm a only a fair hunter.........
.....and, I hate gathering wild berries and roots!

 

[Hugh]

Bill,
Realize it has been 20 years since I fumed anything. But, at the time I was living in the Sacramento Valley. The farmers used "Aqua" for the nitrogen. The fertilizer people had tanks of it. I just went and asked for a little bit. They gave me a quart jar full. The "Aqua" worked well for fuming Red Oak. I used a Rubbermaid container with a clear plastic bag taped to the top. I have been away from the chemistry for too many years to know what kind of ammonia it is. I have tried it on Black Oak also and it worked well on that too.
Hugh