Stuart Batty and Tom Wirsing in one week!

[Jamie Straw]

Seeing demos by Batty and Wirsing, plus a platters-workshop with Wirsing, within a span of 7 days was almost too much! So much to think about and try! I have a basic understanding of the particle-metals thing now, and have seen with my own eyes the difference between that and M2 courtesy of Wirsing's 300x microscope on the widescreen TV (no M42 available for the club demo),. Also, a good visual understanding of the structure of CBN and why the CBN wheels work so well for sharpening.

The workshop on platters was intense, got my bowl gouges ground to 40/40 to see how I like that. Batty's demos with that grind are quite impressive, and Wirsing uses it also, so what the heck?! Great demonstrations of negative rake scrapers (and explanation how they go waaaaaay back to ivory turners).

Seems straightforward and practical to grind NRS symmetrically -- 22.5/22.5. Leave the experimentation of all those different combinations to others.

 

[Jamie Straw]

The most interesting thing, visually, was the microscopic look at the edge of a PM negative rake scraper, how it looks very much like fine sandpaper. Explains why they are so good at smoothing the surface of hard wood (as long as the burr is kept fresh). Remarkable to feel the surface of an un-sanded Wirsing platter or bowl.

The Batty demo has me thinking seriously about simplifying my ideas about bowl turning and the tools needed for that activity.

 

[Bill Boehme]

The most interesting thing, visually, was the microscopic look at the edge of a PM negative rake scraper, how it looks very much like fine sandpaper. Explains why they are so good at smoothing the surface of hard wood (as long as the burr is kept fresh). Remarkable to feel the surface of an un-sanded Wirsing platter or bowl....

Sounds like a really great week. So doesn't everybody carry around a 300X microscope just to look at the edges on their tools?

... The Batty demo has me thinking seriously about simplifying my ideas about bowl turning and the tools needed for that activity.

That's what makes taking classes and seeing demoes by the masters worthwhile.

 

[hockenbery]

@Jamie Straw
Having an opportunity to see and work with two exceptional turners is quite an educational experience. You also are at a stage where you can recognize what they are doing and how you might incorporate it into your turning repertoire.

Stewart has had quite an influence on the turning community popularizing negative rake scrapers and the 40/40 grind.

 

[Josh Stevens]

I would love to see those guys demonstrate!
I decided to grind one of my gouges to the 40/40 grind after seeing Batty's videos and it's my favourite grind now. I still use a more swept back grind for roughing out bowls though.

 

[Dave Delo]

Color me green with envy for your good fortune. Must have been a great week. Nice pic of the bottom shaping of the piece but I think I like the CBN/SB rest set-up the best.

 

[Jamie Straw]

Color me green with envy for your good fortune. Must have been a great week. Nice pic of the bottom shaping of the piece but I think I like the CBN/SB rest set-up the best.

Yes, you can believe I was drooling over the grinder set-ups (he had two). Alas, the Wolverine will have to do for moi. Also fun to watch him pack all the stuff he brought into the back of a Subaru (or equivalent). We bought blanks to turn, silver maple, which I'd never turned before. They came down from Canada.

Tom is very patient, sincerely invites questions, and willingly tags subjects that are the turning equivalent to "politics and religion." I truly appreciate mentors who avoid the "I'm right, period" approach! Same can be said of Stuart Batty, his presentation was eye-opening, informative and sprinkled with humor. Dessert at the end? Procuring one each of his Angle Gauges! This is #1

 

[Jamie Straw]

PS: forgot to mention what Batty demo'd: not sure the technical term, but off-center bowl in square "frame." He was at the Olympia club, two hours travel each way, but totally worth it.

 

[Hy Tran]

Off-center: "multi-axis". (It's always on-center--it's just not the center that you initially think of...)

300x microscope: You can actually buy for about $300 a pretty decent microscope that talks USB to your computer for qualitative assessment of your torn grain, or of your tool.

I have a good recent-model point-and-shoot with an amazing macro; I'll try to remember to take a picture of some of my torn grain and a slightly used HSS gouge, and a freshly sharpened particle metal gouge, and post here this evening.

Hy

 

[Charlie Knighton]

I have run into these celebrities also, the best thing about these turners is that you can continue to attend their demo's and learn new things because they continue to learn and develop

 

[Hy Tran]

Off-center: "multi-axis". (It's always on-center--it's just not the center that you initially think of...)

300x microscope: You can actually buy for about $300 a pretty decent microscope that talks USB to your computer for qualitative assessment of your torn grain, or of your tool.

I have a good recent-model point-and-shoot with an amazing macro; I'll try to remember to take a picture of some of my torn grain and a slightly used HSS gouge, and a freshly sharpened particle metal gouge, and post here this evening.

Hy

As threatened: An ultra close-up of a small fir bowl I made. You can see some defects, either torn grain during sanding, or something. Then, my negative rake scraper--still has a burr despite fairly extensive use. Lastly, my 1/2" (US measure) bowl gouge (Doug Thompson steel).

Photos taken using the Olympus Stylus TG4 in microscope macro mode.

 

[Gerald Lawrence]

As threatened: An ultra close-up of a small fir bowl I made. You can see some defects, either torn grain during sanding, or something. Then, my negative rake scraper--still has a burr despite fairly extensive use. Lastly, my 1/2" (US measure) bowl gouge (Doug Thompson steel).

Photos taken using the Olympus Stylus TG4 in microscope macro mode.

View attachment 20841 View attachment 20842 View attachment 20843

That is some nice photography. Did you take these thru microscope or only Macro mode? I wonder if this is possible with macro on a 270 lens then enhance on computer? Guess I will have to experiment.

 

[Hy Tran]

The Olympus TG4 has a macro mode; it's called "microscope mode." The camera is an enhanced point-and-shoot (shoots raw; also is waterproof to 50 ft, shockproof (drop) to 7 ft, dust proof, freeze proof, etc. But it still doesn't prevent me from having a catch with my tools!)

If I were really scientific, I would have put a scale bar on the photos (or technically, on the items to be photographed). There's also a HDR-type setting to get large depth-of-field in microscope mode, but I got lost in the menu.

 

[Gerald Lawrence]

The Olympus TG4 has a macro mode; it's called "microscope mode." The camera is an enhanced point-and-shoot (shoots raw; also is waterproof to 50 ft, shockproof (drop) to 7 ft, dust proof, freeze proof, etc. But it still doesn't prevent me from having a catch with my tools!)

If I were really scientific, I would have put a scale bar on the photos (or technically, on the items to be photographed). There's also a HDR-type setting to get large depth-of-field in microscope mode, but I got lost in the menu.

That is interesting. I assume that is without cropping. The best I can get in macro on my Canon T5 with Tamron18-270 is for 3 inch to take the full frame. I will have to try with the multiplier on it.

 

[Jamie Straw]

The Olympus TG4 has a macro mode; it's called "microscope mode." The camera is an enhanced point-and-shoot (shoots raw; also is waterproof to 50 ft, shockproof (drop) to 7 ft, dust proof, freeze proof, etc.

Thank you so much for posting those pictures and giving info on the camera! My husband needs to take very clear photos of coins, and neither of my camera's does anything close to a good job!

 

[Hy Tran]

Jamie,

Didn't mean to hijack your thread...

Two more photos, using microscope mode (e.g. super macro). In this mode, I can bring the camera to about 1 cm from the object that I am photographing. First photo is Mr. Lincoln in his monument on a penny in RAW, approx 4600x3400 pixels; 2nd is focus-stacking mode, approx 3200x2400 pixels jpg. The red marks on the tape measure are 1 mm apart; the background is a bedsheet. Photos have not been cropped, but they have been resized to 800 pixels wide so as to upload here safely.

I like the camera, but the menu structure is still giving me fits.

Hy

 

[Bill Boehme]

also is waterproof to 50 ft

My wristwatch says that it's waterproof to 300 meters and then the instruction manual says to remove it before showering to prevent water damage.

I wouldn't take that waterproof statement too literally. If the camera has any of the following then being waterproof is an impossible challenge: lens that can zoom, a memory card slot, a battery compartment, a mini USB connector, audio connector, shutter button, ON-OFF switch, navigation buttons on the back, LCD display on the back, or HDMI connector.

Some macro shooters use focus stacking (basically a bunch of images where the focus is incrementally changed and then the in-focus parts of each image is combined in software. Generally speaking HDR is to increase the exposure dynamic range by combining images with different exposure times into a single image.

 

[hockenbery]

My wristwatch says that it's waterproof to 300 meters and then the instruction manual says to remove it before showering to prevent water damage.

I wouldn't take that waterproof statement too literally. If the camera has any of the following then being waterproof is an impossible challenge: lens that can zoom, a memory card slot, a battery compartment, a mini USB connector, audio connector, shutter button, ON-OFF switch, navigation buttons on the back, LCD display on the back, or HDMI connector.
.

@Bill Boehme, @Hy Tran we have an OLYMPUS TG-3 predecessor of the TG-4. we have used it quite a bit when snorkeling but probably never got deeper that 10-12ft. It is an amazing little camera. Does all manner of things. You can set it for time lapse video or stack focus a macro image like the one above.
Also has wifi that let apps on a phone or iPad control the camera as a remote as well as download videos and photos.
This little box is so full of magic!!!!!

 

[Bill Boehme]

@Bill Boehme, @Hy Tran we have an OLYMPUS TG-3 predecessor of the TG-4. we have used it quite a bit when snorkeling but probably never got deeper that 10-12ft. It is an amazing little camera. Does all manner of things. You can set it for time lapse video or stack focus a macro image like the one above.
Also has wifi that let apps on a phone or iPad control the camera as a remote as well as download videos and photos.
This little box is so full of magic!!!!!

But, does it squeeze fresh orange juice and make flapjacks for you in the morning? I'm still waiting for that model.

 

[Jamie Straw]

@Bill Boehme, @Hy Tran we have an OLYMPUS TG-3 predecessor of the TG-4. we have used it quite a bit when snorkeling but probably never got deeper that 10-12ft. It is an amazing little camera. Does all manner of things. You can set it for time lapse video or stack focus a macro image like the one above.
Also has wifi that let apps on a phone or iPad control the camera as a remote as well as download videos and photos.
This little box is so full of magic!!!!!

Al, do you have any experience/opinion about the macro capability of the TG-3?? The TG-4 is a little pricey for us.

 

[hockenbery]

Al, do you have any experience/opinion about the macro capability of the TG-3?? The TG-4 is a little pricey for us.

This is a 1mb version photo taken in "microscope" setting with the TG3 the original was 12mb.
What this itty bitty camera does is amazing. The TG4 replaced the TG3. The cameras are quite similar. The subject is a dragon fly wing about an inch long with a sandblasted background. Wood is sapele.



Also it is small enough to mount on a spotting scope. A .6mb version of a 9 mb

 

[Scott Hayes]

I had the opportunity to take a 16 hour fundamentals course with Batty last weekend. It was an amazing experience. It didn't take long before I was doing his giant push cuts and leaving a smoother surface than I ever have. Shaped bowls in 4 cuts when before it would have been 20 or more for me. Big focus on grinding too, learned to grind the 40/40 in seconds by hand, really easy with a little practice and proper technique. That class boosted my abilities 500%

 

[hockenbery]

I had the opportunity to take a 16 hour fundamentals course with Batty last weekend. It was an amazing experience. It didn't take long before I was doing his giant push cuts and leaving a smoother surface than I ever have. Shaped bowls in 4 cuts when before it would have been 20 or more for me. Big focus on grinding too, learned to grind the 40/40 in seconds by hand, really easy with a little practice and proper technique. That class boosted my abilities 500%

Congratulations on a great experience.
The intermediate/advanced classes taken when you have the basics can propell your skills big steps forward,

 

[Bill Boehme]

Also it is small enough to mount on a spotting scope. A .6mb version of a 9 mb

Mighty cute little great white egret fuzz-balls.

 

[Charlie Knighton]

spring at Gatorland ......south side of Orlando

remember spring in florida......feb or early march......the birds nest a foot off the walkways.....the gators keep the raccoons and such away......you can take a picture from a foot away

 

[Jamie Straw]

I had the opportunity to take a 16 hour fundamentals course with Batty last weekend. It was an amazing experience. It didn't take long before I was doing his giant push cuts and leaving a smoother surface than I ever have. Shaped bowls in 4 cuts when before it would have been 20 or more for me. Big focus on grinding too, learned to grind the 40/40 in seconds by hand, really easy with a little practice and proper technique. That class boosted my abilities 500%

Fantastic! He did a one-day workshop in Olympia after that demo at their club. If he comes back next year, I'm definitely going to sign up for the workshop. His efficiency and the results he gets with bowls are just amazing. I suspect he turns the best bowl in the shortest amount of time (best=off-the-lathe finish). Too bad you're in New York, or I'd invite myself over for some tips!!

Oh, regarding grinding the 40/40 -- Tom Wirsing's gouges have a flat ground on the sides of the shaft that, when laid on the platform (set at 40 degrees), will have the wing exactly at 40. Obviates the necessity of eyeballing 40 degrees (flute parallel to platform) when grinding the sides of the working end. (sorry, is that clear as mud?) I didn't quite get how he calculated it, but it had something to do with filling the flute with some modelling material, popping it out and measuring the angle inside the flute. Too much for my brain.

 

[Bill Boehme]

sorry, is that clear as mud?

I dunno. That comparison might be unfairly disparaging the clarity of mud..

 

[robo hippy]

I didn't know Tom was up that a way so recently. I demoed at the Northwest Woodturners last night in Portland, and got questions about the NRS, which I am still working on understanding. Tom has 2, one with 20 degree bevels, and the other with 25 degree bevels. I need a play date with him too.....

That 40/40 grind doesn't really appeal to me. Probably because I hold my tools level, and a 40/40 would have too small of a sweet spot. For my uses, it is more of a detail gouge, but lots of people like it.

robo hippy

 

[Jamie Straw]

Tom has 2, one with 20 degree bevels, and the other with 25 degree bevels.

We probably got his condensed class last weekend, but his NRS's working edges were ground 22.5 on each side, but they were first ground at 20 and then the 22.5 applied at the cutting edge, all in order to make repeated sharpenings (at 22.5) go quickly.

 

[Jamie Straw]

I dunno. That comparison might be unfairly disparaging the clarity of mud..

Ooooo, that hurt!

 

[robo hippy]

Jamie, do you have the angles backwards? I have one NRS that is 25/25, and put it on my 40 grit, 1 1/2 hp grinder and took it to about 20 degrees, then sharpen just the tip to 25. Kind of like relieving the heel on gouges... I really need a play date with him...

robo hippy

 

[Nick Stagg]

Jamie, do you have the angles backwards? I have one NRS that is 25/25, and put it on my 40 grit, 1 1/2 hp grinder and took it to about 20 degrees, then sharpen just the tip to 25. Kind of like relieving the heel on gouges... I really need a play date with him...

robo hippy

Reed,
I think the biggest misconception about the NRS is that it removes wood!

All it does is removes fine, fluffy shavings; it's not meant to remove bulk. It just cleans up the surface after a gouge gets through with it. It works extremely well on end grain (boxes) and especially well on hard, dense woods. If you have a long blade (sharpened on the side), you can clean up the inside of steep, narrow bowls or vessels.

As for the angle; a 22.5 degree works well.. that's a 45 degree included angle similar to a skew. The only thing on the NRS that "cuts" is the burr which last a very short time. After the burr is gone you need to raise it again, but turn your tool over and grind the other side so it wears evenly. You can raise an excellent burr on a 40 grit wheel by applying additional pressure . I curve mine ( think Raffan skew) so I can apply different portions of it to the wood at a time. There's no need to mess around with a different angle on the end. 10V steel will hold a burr longer than M2.

 

[Jamie Straw]

You can raise an excellent burr on a 40 grit wheel by applying additional pressure . I curve mine ( think Raffan skew) so I can apply different portions of it to the wood at a time. There's no need to mess around with a different angle on the end. 10V steel will hold a burr longer than M2.

The "different angle on the end" isn't to influence cutting ability, but to make sharpening go more quickly. I am mystified by using a 40 grit wheel to sharpen a tool being used for fine finishing cuts. Seems like it would produce a much coarser burr than a finer grit wheel. As mentioned earlier, the microscopic view of Tom's NRS edge shows a sandpaper-like burr, and to that he gives credit for the super-fine surface left behind. The tools he used and we saw (and borrowed, in some instances) were all 10V and sharpened on CBN wheels.

 

[robo hippy]

Nick, nice to hear from you again... Most of the time, the NRS is just for fine finish cuts, and mine all have an arc to them. After seeing Eric Lofstrom, who uses a carbide tipped hand held burnishing tool to form his burr, that had me looking at things differently. It seems to be able to remove very fine shavings like an off the grinder burr, but is far more durable, and can actually remove stock. I don't know if you have ever tried the fine grit CBN wheels or not, but they kind of burnish a burr on the tools, which seem to last longer and cut just as well as the burrs off the standard grinding wheels. I have a lot more experimenting to do with this tool. All of mine do have an arc to them.

robo hippy

 

[Jamie Straw]

Jamie, do you have the angles backwards? I have one NRS that is 25/25, and put it on my 40 grit, 1 1/2 hp grinder and took it to about 20 degrees, then sharpen just the tip to 25. Kind of like relieving the heel on gouges... I really need a play date with him...

robo hippy

I had the numbers wrong. The cutting edge was definitely 22.5, the "background grind" was, I think, 25. It's all relative anyway, I suppose it could be 30. The main thing I took away from the NRS stuff, as far as sharpening goes, was that (a) having a symmetrical grind makes things much easier and faster and (b) having a dual bevel also makes grinding go faster. For someone like me, the (b) point is no biggie. The (a) point, though, very helpful. Just to know that there's no need to go getting all fancy. As Nick says above "As for the angle; a 22.5 degree works well.. that's a 45 degree included angle similar to a skew."

 

[Dean Center]

I would love to see those guys demonstrate!
I decided to grind one of my gouges to the 40/40 grind after seeing Batty's videos and it's my favourite grind now. I still use a more swept back grind for roughing out bowls though.

Stuart Batty regularly attends and informally demonstrates at the Rocky Mountain Woodturning Symposium. Tom Wirsing demostrated there 2 years ago, and since he is a member of the sponsoring club, he will likely be doing so again. The Symposium is held in September, this year's is done and next year's schedule is almost certainly not set, but you could bookmark their site and check back next summer.

 

[Jamie Straw]

@Bill Boehme, @Hy Tran we have an OLYMPUS TG-3 predecessor of the TG-4. we have used it quite a bit when snorkeling but probably never got deeper that 10-12ft. It is an amazing little camera. Does all manner of things. You can set it for time lapse video or stack focus a macro image like the one above.
Also has wifi that let apps on a phone or iPad control the camera as a remote as well as download videos and photos.
This little box is so full of magic!!!!!

Al, we have received our "magic little box!" It will be, by far, the most complicated photo/video apparatus I have ever used. Scanning through the long, long user's manual, I didn't see anything that tells me what the minimum focus distance is for normal shooting (as opposed to underwater macro, or microscope [one cm. seems a little close]. If I use "underwater macro" when not underwater, for instance, will the picture be weird? Microscope seems like way overkill for Nick's coins, but perhaps there's a setting that would make it right.

 

[hockenbery]

Al, we have received our "magic little box!" It will be, by far, the most complicated photo/video apparatus I have ever used. Scanning through the long, long user's manual, I didn't see anything that tells me what the minimum focus distance is for normal shooting (as opposed to underwater macro, or microscope [one cm. seems a little close]. If I use "underwater macro" when not underwater, for instance, will the picture be weird? Microscope seems like way overkill for Nick's coins, but perhaps there's a setting that would make it right.

I think you will enjoy the little magic box.
I have the TG3 if I press the shutter halfway it locks focus and shows a little green box in view screen.
If it is too close it can't make the little green box. This tells me I need to back off to focus or switch to another mode like microscope.
set on something like "P" it will focus closer than a foot. Maybe 8-9 inches.

Have fun

 

[Bill Boehme]

Nick, nice to hear from you again... Most of the time, the NRS is just for fine finish cuts, and mine all have an arc to them. After seeing Eric Lofstrom, who uses a carbide tipped hand held burnishing tool to form his burr, that had me looking at things differently. It seems to be able to remove very fine shavings like an off the grinder burr, but is far more durable, and can actually remove stock. I don't know if you have ever tried the fine grit CBN wheels or not, but they kind of burnish a burr on the tools, which seem to last longer and cut just as well as the burrs off the standard grinding wheels. I have a lot more experimenting to do with this tool. All of mine do have an arc to them.

Reed, I also use a hand held burnishing rod. It was designed for putting a bur on a cabinet scraper, but it works just fine on scrapers. I sharpen on a Tormek which leaves a very smooth bevel and then I "pull" a bur with the burnisher. It's very easy and doesn't take much force at all since the contact area is so minute that the force per area results in a very high pressure at the contact point. Too much force will roll the bur over into a loop and it won't cut at all. The nice thing is that the bur is relatively clean and longer lasting than a grinder bur ... more like a knife edge rather than a saw tooth edge which a coarse grinder would produce. But, to answer Jamie, even with a grinder bur, it is equivalent to fine sandpaper. The hand pulled bur produces an edge closer to what a hand plane or cabinet scraper would produce.

 

[robo hippy]

Bill, I think there is a considerable difference in the burrs off of a standard card scraper burnisher, and a carbide tipped burnisher. I never got much of an edge with the round standard burnisher, but got a pretty good one with the triangle burnisher. I need to play some more, probably take one whole log and try all the different burrs. For sure, standard grinder wheels give an okay burr, but no durability. CBN wheels give a far more durable and sharper burr, probably in part due to the better/more even grit. When they get broken in, they are more like honing than they are like grinding. The 600 and 1000 grit wheels leave a better surface still. I haven't been able to determine if it is better than the burnished burr. I haven't made much use of burnishing other than for flat work because of the superiority of the CBN wheel burr, compared to the other burrs. We need a play date...

robo hippy