PARADOX - Terry Martin, Zina Burloiu and Mark Lindquist Collaboration

[Mark Lindquist]

Here's a short video about a recent collaboration at Lindquist Studios.

View: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JlwwJlSk5S4

 

[john lucas]

Great video. I took a 1 day chip carving class with Zina. Incredible carver. I'm still trying chip carving from time to time but I have arthritis in my right wrist and have just never been able to stay with it much. Still her class really helped me learn to read the grain when carving and to learn which direction to cut. Where the weak points are in wood is really important. I love Marks radial arm chain saw.

 

[Mark Lindquist]

Zina and Terry are both just amazing. Zina is a bonified master carver. I can't remember when I've seen someone as dedicated and talented as she is. Terry is extremely talented and a master turner. They were here at the studio for two full weeks and we worked every day. A lot of work, a lot of fun.

 

[Charlie Knighton]

Great piece.....bowl within hf outstanding...the wood itself....that chainsaw used with precession...that chainsaw used with precession....I have chip carved basswood....doing wood such as ash burl is hard to contemplate....
Outstanding piece.....that piece of wood would stay in the shop 5 years just looking at it

 

[Mark Lindquist]

Great piece.....bowl within hf outstanding...the wood itself....that chainsaw used with precession...that chainsaw used with precession....I have chip carved basswood....doing wood such as ash burl is hard to contemplate....
Outstanding piece.....that piece of wood would stay in the shop 5 years just looking at it

Thanks Charlie. Yes, that burl hung around for 15 years before it got used.
Appreciate the kind words.

Mark

 

[Pete Blair]

Wonderful Video. Thanks for sharing!!

 

[odie]

Mark......interesting how far you have the tool off the tool rest at 2:40.....Amazing that you have any control at all. I suppose it's only with very tiny light cuts, and a very good support. Thanks for participating in the forums lately......it's not often that recognized turners come here much. John Jordan has been here to post a few times, but I haven't heard from him in a couple years.

-----odie-----

 

[Mark Lindquist]

Mark......interesting how far you have the tool off the tool rest at 2:40.....Amazing that you have any control at all. I suppose it's only with very tiny light cuts, and a very good support. Thanks for participating in the forums lately......it's not often that recognized turners come here much. John Jordan has been here to post a few times, but I haven't heard from him in a couple years.

-----odie-----

Hi there Odie,
That photo at 2.40 is of Terry Martin turning. What you can't see is that the tool he is using is an old Stewart tool whose support goes up into the arm like a "walker" or some types of canes. I believe Terry kept the tool rest back so he could see fully what and where he was turning and going. Definitely light cuts. Additionally, keeping the rest back allows the chips to clear without getting jammed up as they would with a tight to the work typical tool rest position. It's interesting to see how turners develop little tricks that appear anti-intuitive, yet are surprisingly effective. Terry has a light touch and keeps his tools extraordinarily sharp. He's worked with Tormeck photographing sharpened edges with extreme macro photography to study sharpening techniques and effects. I was definitely impressed with the Tormek system and Terry's sharpening techniques.

I don't often participate in forums, other than photography forums. Time is an issue. I'm recuperating from a marathon work session and a special guest being here. Having overdone and really exhausting myself I'm just lying around taking it easy. I enjoy reading the threads here when I have time, and particularly was interested in the forum participation thread. If I had more time, I'd be here more. But thank you for making me feel welcome - a great bunch of folks you all are here.

I went out on a limb and posted a few thoughts, but I feel that maybe that was too much since I'm not a regular here. I really don't know what the goals are here so actually don't want to make assumptions beyond just some thoughts to share. I am surprised that more recognized turners are not here, however. After all, this is the AAW Forum.

Take care, and thanks for your comments, and kind words.

Best,

Mark

 

[Mike Johnson]

Mark,

Thank You for posting the video, very interesting project!
Most people are unaware of the efforts that go into many of these pieces.

 

[john lucas]

Thanks for posting Mark. Always love the pioneering work of you and your family. It is fun hearing from the top turners. It gives us a different point of view. As far as goals of this Forum. Just to have fun, share knowledge and meet new people. Can't get any better than that. Wish I could go to Kansas this year to see old friends and make more but it's simply not in the works.

 

[John Torchick]

Mark, thanks for your comments. I would look forward to seeing more of your work and learning from you as well as the others here.

 

[Zach LaPerriere]

Thank you for sharing the video, Mark. What a fun collaboration, and a heck of a finished bowl.

 

[Bill Boehme]

went out on a limb and posted a few thoughts, but I feel that maybe that was too much since I'm not a regular here. I really don't know what the goals are here so actually don't want to make assumptions beyond just some thoughts to share. I am surprised that more recognized turners are not here, however....

Thanks for posting the great video, Mark.

I also appreciate you sharing your thoughts about the forum because it's hard to improve if there isn't any feedback. And, the views of a newcomer or occasional participant is the best way to find out about first impressions.

I think that you mentioned in another thread about staying in contact and sharing information by letter in the days before the Internet and in many ways I think that this and several other woodturning forums aren't too far removed from that concept ... just a different medium of communication. As far as goals are concerned, I believe that each person here has their unique reason for participating. Sometimes a beginner is here because they are overwhelmed by information overload. So his/her goal is just getting a handle on things, figure out what stuff they should get to turn whatever they might be interested in making, and possibly advance beyond the dreaded catch from Hell. For most everybody here I believe much of the attraction is in sharing bits of information, new ideas and see what others are doing. I think that John's statement about a forum goal is as good as any. Most, if not all of the "regulars" are eager to help beginners because we've all been there and are able to empathize with their feelings (dang, now I'm talking about feelings).

By the way, if you post then you are a "regular" .... it's in the rules somewhere I think ... maybe ... or should be.

 

[John Torchick]

Forgot to add to the previous thread. I did take time to view the entire video. The things that caught my attention- the chain saw, turning a bowl within a bowl, and the carving by Zina. She has a great touch to feel the grain of the wood as mentioned with the soft and hard wood in the project. Obviously, s he also has a lot of patience to produce such intricate carvings.

 

[Mark Lindquist]

Thanks for posting the great video, Mark.

I also appreciate you sharing your thoughts about the forum because it's hard to improve if there isn't any feedback. And, the views of a newcomer or occasional participant is the best way to find out about first impressions.

I think that you mentioned in another thread about staying in contact and sharing information by letter in the days before the Internet and in many ways I think that this and several other woodturning forums aren't too far removed from that concept ... just a different medium of communication. As far as goals are concerned, I believe that each person here has their unique reason for participating. Sometimes a beginner is here because they are overwhelmed by information overload. So his/her goal is just getting a handle on things, figure out what stuff they should get to turn whatever they might be interested in making, and possibly advance beyond the dreaded catch from Hell. For most everybody here I believe much of the attraction is in sharing bits of information, new ideas and see what others are doing. I think that John's statement about a forum goal is as good as any. Most, if not all of the "regulars" are eager to help beginners because we've all been there and are able to empathize with their feelings (dang, now I'm talking about feelings).

By the way, if you post then you are a "regular" .... it's in the rules somewhere I think ... maybe ... or should be.

Thanks Bill,
It's always interesting to ccome on a forum and realize these days that many people don't know the history of spalted wood, or burls, and the development of woodturning in America, particularly during the 60's through the 80's. Folks have no idea that Melvin Lindquist, a one time master machinist for General electric brought carbide home from work and made carbide tipped turning tools to be able to turn the spalted wood he found on his land in the upstate New York Adirondacks. Or that he devekoped a process of hollowing out the interiors of his vases to keep them from cracking based on the expandable reamer. And that he called his technique "blind boring". They also don't know that his 10 year old son helped carry the wood back to camp and the two would make spalted wood turnings during the sixties. Fast forward to the early 70's and the son wrote articles on spalted wood for Fine Woodworking magazine, the first ever published. Then the first article published on harvesting burls.
There were many firsts, back then, and some are written about here: http://www.woodturner.org/?page=POPMerit2007Lindquis

So coming onto to a forum and seeing many people doing work that in many ways I started, yet few know even who I am, is intimidating somewhat. I've moved on from bowl turning to sculpture, but I enjoy seeing what I like to think my father Mel and I had an influence starting and how turning has grown so much over the years. For anyone interested, here is an article about our involvement starting the woodturning program at Arrowmont:
http://www.lindquiststudios.com/Arrowmont Woodturning School.pdf
So anyway, it's fun to check in now and again, to see what's going on and to see there are still people interested in learning woodturning. I encourage everyone to learn not only woodturning, but the history of the field, to see where it came from, how it began when it was "re-invented" in the 60's and what it has been up until now, in a journey lasting several decades. In the history of our field are many answers to questions about form and technique, and of great importance the people who made things happen over the years. If a goal of this forum is to grow, to expand, and to attract turners who have become recognized nationally and internationally, one way to begin is to understand who they are, what they did, and what they are doing now.

It may seem a lot to ask, but to begin recognizing those who made turning possible to the extent it is today, is a good first step. It just an observation amd a suggestion, and should be taken only as that. We frequently all go about our business and really know very little about how we got here.

It's good that there is a "here", here. A place to discuss, share, learn, and enjoy.

Mark

 

[Doug Rasmussen]

Mark, I'd like to hear your thoughts on automation, robotics and CNC used in the creation of wood art.

Because I owned and worked with CNC metal cutting machines almost my whole working career they're a natural for me now that more time is available to work with wood. There seems to be quite a push back from traditional turners and woodworkers to the use of CNC machines though. My feeling is, no matter how you do it the piece will still be only as good as the design which doesn't happen automatically.

Doug

 

[Charlie Knighton]

CNC....Saturday night.....$$$$$$.....I have heard from a Turner from sin city that any tool used is fine with him......he does excellent work and woodturning has changed his life....so I will only like your turning.....opps sometimes people put metal and resin and key shavings and turning out of chunk of ice and such and then call it a wood turning......oh well, Saturday night anything goes

 

[Doug Rasmussen]

Uh, Charlie.......$$$$$$ is one of the biggest misconceptions about CNC. A very capable CNC (Tormach 440, for instance) would run about the same or less than an accessorized Powermatic 3502b.

 

[Charlie Knighton]

My 1642 @ Richmond cost $1500.....no it is not for sale.....I just priced the 3520 without accessories...

 

[Mark Lindquist]

Mark, I'd like to hear your thoughts on automation, robotics and CNC used in the creation of wood art.

Because I owned and worked with CNC metal cutting machines almost my whole working career they're a natural for me now that more time is available to work with wood. There seems to be quite a push back from traditional turners and woodworkers to the use of CNC machines though. My feeling is, no matter how you do it the piece will still be only as good as the design which doesn't happen automatically.

Doug

Hi Doug -

I have no problem with CNC or automation. I use automation in my work and have since the mid-eighties. Here's an article about my robotic designs and evolution:
http://robogravure.com/Robogravure_articles_robotic_camera_systems_by_Mark_Lindquist.htm

Most all of my woodworking robotss are non-closed loop feedback control, or "dumb robots".
I've built them to remote control live tooling with my lathes and carving machines. My whole studio of robotics is controlled with a large panel that I designed and built over several years.

There is nothing wrong with automation or cnc. There are just 2 types of motion in our world;
linear and circular and combining both, circulinear. Automation implies power applied to these types of motion, and control is of 2-3 types these days: remote, cnc, or servo (obviously there was water, steam, horse, and hand power, etc., before.)

We are surrounded by cnc and remote machines: printers use cnc, vehicles use remote control in certain situations, or computer control in others. Many appliances are contolled remotely such as televisions.

CNC has limitations for woodturning, depending on the type of tooling and materials used, size being one of them. But if I could use 6-axis cnc control on a lathe, it would be awesome. As it is, I have six axis control with my robots, but it is all done remotely through a panel of 90 volt dc controllers.

Remote control of chainsaw and router on the lathe makes work considerably safer, and significantly more precise. CNC raises the cost exponentially, but would make the system repeatable.

Whatever one uses to turn burn, or carve or machine wood is fine in my book. It's simply another approach.

Turning purists frown on such deviation from expected norms, or prescribed methods of turning, but I'm a live and let-live kind of guy when it comes to technique. Old school, new school, no school, whatever. If it floats your boat and you are happy with the results, then yippie kay yi yay!

Pushback from turners mostly means they can't afford it, can't understand it, and can't do it. Negative attitudes come from insecurity. Experimentation is a threat to prescribed methods and techniques of turning. Right-way-ness stands in the way of other-way-ness. All of it is all OK in my book.

Learning to turn "the right way" is fine too, and could be considered a starting point and foundation to a future jumping off point with CNC.

Mark

 

[Doug Rasmussen]

Mark, thanks for the link to your robotics article. For the non-believers reading your article I would say it's getting much easier to build your own special purpose computer controlled mechanisms or even complete machines. It's almost plug and play these days.

And, thanks for your thoughts on CNC and automation. Glad to see we're so much in agreement there.

Doug

 

[Emiliano Achaval]

Outstanding collaborative piece. That chainsaw contraption almost looks like something and Argentine like me might come up with, lol The carving is simply amazing, what a talented lady! Have to say, she impressed me the most... Aloha from Maui

 

[john lucas]

Mark, wonderful responses. I have really enjoyed over the years learning about turners from the past and how things were developed. Watching the lifetime achievement awards at the AAW has always been an eye opener because you get to learn about that person and their contribution to our craft. Wish I could be there this year to see Clay Foster get his award. I've know him a long time along through John Jordan and it's always been great hearing what he knows and where he's been.

 

[RichColvin]

Bill Ooms is an ornamental turner who is a thought leader in using CNC for that, & has documented his endeavors to deliver that (http://cornlathe.billooms.com/index.html). I've exchanged emails with him, an quite respect his reasons for pursuing it.

• CNC pluses :
  • Can program the system to emulate a boatload of different mechanical add-ones
• CNC detractors:
  • I'd have to keep up on the programming maintenance & systems updates. (I do that daily at my job, & don't want to do that for the stuff I enjoy as a hobby.)

So, I've chosen to not pursue this approach to the ornamental lathe I'm building. But that's my choice. If you want to go that route, read Bill's web pages. He's done a great job outlining what to do. And, his pieces of work show that he has been successful.

Kind regards,
Rich

 

[Bill Boehme]

I'd have to keep up on the programming maintenance & systems updates. (I do that daily at my job, & don't want to do that for the stuff I enjoy as a hobby.)

Reminds me of when the world was still analog forty years ago and the promise of what could be done with digital electronics was starting to be realized. This also included some mistaken ideas. One of these that I recall quite well was the notion that it will be so much easier to fix things in software than fixing it in hardware. So naive we were back then.

 

[Mark Lindquist]

Craftsmanship of certainty vs. craftsmanship of risk on steroids. CNC is yet another tool. CAD/CAM has its place for those who prefer to either use it or experiment with it. I believe there is no right or wrong, just employment of different tools and approaches. It's all valid and all ok.

The line becomes blurred in many cases when indexicality is performed by jigs or by remote control.
Preference in method of making is a personal choice. However we make things, the end result is that we make things, each of us, our way.

Vive la difference.



(Edit for spelling)

 

[RichColvin]

Mark is right: the tool does not make the artist.

 

[Doug Rasmussen]

Here's a quote from David Pye that echoes my feelings : "It is not the workmanship that is so difficult, but the design". CNC gives me the ability to make things that are not practically possible by hand methods. But without a pleasing design you have nothing (IMO).

These pictures illustrate what I mean. My idea was to create multi-axis offset turnings while keeping the surface smooth. The proof of concept test piece shown is 6" tall with 50 axis offsets per inch, 300 total. Both the top and bottom are not offset, everything in between is. The finished piece only needed minimal sanding with 320 grit.

Time on the computer with a couple iterations of the design, maybe two to four hours plus or minus. Time to cut, 20 minutes, Design variations, taller, shorter, skinnier, fatter, are only a couple keystrokes on the CNC machine's computer control.

 

[Mark Lindquist]

Very interesting Doug. Your proof of concept certainly validates your process of manufacture, particularly if only requiring light sanding.

It will be interesting to see where you take this in the future.

One thing I have found is that the limitations of the process often effect the design outcome which is then of necessity created strictly within the confines of those parameters. Finding ways to work outside of the confines often leads to an unexpected "gift" of the machine. Ironically, these gifts often come as perceived errors or mistakes. Harnessing the repeatability of such aberations often leads to major breakthroughs.

Good luck with your endeavors - it will be interesting to see where you go from here.

 

[Charlie Knighton]

seems that cnc with software you end up with repeatable process where multiple objects exactly the same can be made......where as while a Turner can repeat multiple copies of the same design, it is not as easy and small variations can be introduced to make unique form.....is this a valid statement????????

 

[RichColvin]

Here's a quote from David Pye that echoes my feelings : "It is not the workmanship that is so difficult, but the design". CNC gives me the ability to make things that are not practically possible by hand methods. But without a pleasing design you have nothing (IMO).

Doug,

If you're an artist who is selling your work to fund your life, then CNC is probably an approach worth pursuing. It probably allows one to put out enough repeatable work to pay the bills. I recently saw a great interview with David Ellsworth where he talks about the salt & pepper shakers he made to pay the bills. I would bet it was his design that sold the work, not that they might have been one-offs.

It think it is great that you're using CNC to develop your art using a sculpting approach that works for your goals. IMO, that's what this hobby is about.

I also think it is great to see people push the field in new directions. People like Jon Magill are for Ornamental Turning, & Bill Ooms certainly is for CNC.

I'm interested in seeing what you develop.

Kind regards,
Rich