Denatured alcohol v. distillery alcohol

[Jamie Straw]

Just found out I can get free alcohol from our local, high-end distillery (hoping that "high-end" will add to the character of my bowls). Anyhooo, does anyone know how the alcohol content of hardware-store DNA might compare to the distillery stuff?

 

[Bill Boehme]

There is a difference. The liquor type alcohol is mostly water where the ethyl alcohol content is designated by "proof spirit" where 100 proof spirit equals 50% ethyl alcohol by volume in the United States. In the United Kingdom, proof spirits is given by weight. Since alcohol is lighter than water, 50 proof alcohol in the UK would be more than 50% in the US. The exact number is left as an exercise to the student ... that would be you.

Years ago, hardware store denatured alcohol was about 85% ethyl alcohol (ethanol), about 5% methyl alcohol (methanol) to make it poisonous to consume, a bit of acetone, and the rest was water. Now, the numbers have been flipped to about 85% methanol, 5 to 10% ethanol, and the rest is water. The reason is that the price has gone way up for ethanol because of the demand as an additive to gasoline. However, you can now buy Green Eco-Friendly denatured alcohol in hardware stores which is basically the same as the old mostly ethanol DNA from the days before the term Eco-friendly existed. Just goes to show you that we had to go to unfriendly DNA before we could make friendly DNA. I like the smell of the Eco-friendly DNA more than the noxious smelling methanol stuff. And, no I don't snort it.

So, when Jimmy Clewes talks about using what they call "meth" across the pond for raising grain before dying wood, it's basically the same thing as our unfriendly DNA.

 

[Curt Fuller]

This could possibly be an internet hoax, urban legend, old wives tale, or something like that. But I was told that the difference between consumable alcohol and denatured alcohol is that in order for alcohol to not be taxed as an alcoholic beverage by the government it must be rendered undrinkable. Alcohol is alcohol. What else that's in the bottle, flask, or 1 gallon can determines if it's denatured or if it isn't. I'll be curious to see what others have to say about this because I've never know whether to buy that story or not.

 

[Bill Boehme]

Alcohol is alcohol.

That's partially right. Liquor alcohol (meaning only ethanol and not any other form of alcohol) is taxed and denatured alcohol isn't. But it's more than adding something that makes ethanol nauseating or toxic, it also has to be something that can't be separated out from the ethanol to make it drinkable. Methanol which is toxic and is the simplest alcohol molecule can't be separated easily enough from ethanol to make it economically feasible.

There are many other types of alcohol that have differing properties. Here are a few examples: isopropanol (isopropyl rubbing alcohol), isobutanol (butyl alcohol), glycerine (glycerol), sorbitol (a sugar alcohol that is slow to metabolize), and antifreeze (ethylene glycol). Basically, I believe that an alcohol would be any molecule where an OH {hydroxyl) radical is attached to a carbon atom in an organic molecule. I'm sure that @Gerald Lawrence will straighten me out if I don't correctly remember my high school organic chemistry.

 

[Dennis J Gooding]

Just found out I can get free alcohol from our local, high-end distillery (hoping that "high-end" will add to the character of my bowls). Anyhooo, does anyone know how the alcohol content of hardware-store DNA might compare to the distillery stuff?

Jamie, you do not say what your are going to use it for. A cocktail while turning?, to speed up drying of green wood?, as a solvent for shellac or other finish?

 

[Gerald Lawrence]

That's partially right. Liquor alcohol (meaning only ethanol and not any other form of alcohol) is taxed and denatured alcohol isn't. But it's more than adding something that makes ethanol nauseating or toxic, it also has to be something that can't be separated out from the ethanol to make it drinkable. Methanol which is toxic and is the simplest alcohol molecule can't be separated easily enough from ethanol to make it economically feasible.

There are many other types of alcohol that have differing properties. Here are a few examples: isopropanol (isopropyl rubbing alcohol), isobutanol (butyl alcohol), glycerine (glycerol), sorbitol (a sugar alcohol that is slow to metabolize), and antifreeze (ethylene glycol). Basically, I believe that an alcohol would be any molecule where an OH {hydroxyl) radical is attached to a carbon atom in an organic molecule. I'm sure that @Gerald Lawrence will straighten me out if I don't correctly remember my high school organic chemistry.

Bill is right on. Denatured I think started during prohibition so alcohol could be used as a solvent w/o worry about someone drinking it , but they did drink it and some died. Ethyl alcohol is taxed and also called grain alcohol. When I was in school there was one teacher who was listed as an agent and kept inventories of the grain alcohol for tax purposed and ATF since schools are tax exempt. Jamie what you are getting is grain alcohol and is usually 95% best I remember from when we used it in Pharmacy.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Denatured_alcohol
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ethanol

 

[Hy Tran]

What they said about taxation.

Ignoring editorial comments about recreational alcohol vs non-recreational alcohol, all alcohols (no matter how pure) will absorb some moisture from the atmosphere. 90-95% is about as high an alcohol content as you'll get. Everclear, famous to college students of yore, is 95% ethanol (190 proof).

Denaturants, as stated by others, are compounds that make the alcohol non-recreational. Methyl alcohol (methanol) is a common denaturant. If you consume methanol, your body metabolizes it to formaldehyde (and you'll literally be pickled...). Interestingly, an antidote to consuming methanol is to consume lots of ethanol to try to dilute out the methanol... A common industrial denaturant used with high end denatured alcohols is a small amount of toluene.

The distillery may be giving you the heads and tails (that may not be the technical term, but that's what I'm calling them) of the distilling run. These do contain ethanol, but also contain other fractions of alcohol. Methanol will be in the heads, longer-chain alcohols (frequently called fusel alcohols) will be in the tails. The water proportion is likely fairly low, but the distillery should have an alcohol meter and can give you a decent guesstimate as to how much alcohol-to-water you have.

I'd be comfortable using this stuff as a solvent for shellac, or for aniline dyes.

It might be recreational to experiment with this stuff to accelerate drying of green wood.

 

[Zach LaPerriere]

This is timely for me, as I was just researching the differences lastnight. A large percentage of my customers want 100% foodsafe, and I have to wonder about using DNA to raise grain. I know most of the residue must evaporate.

I've hear talk of mixing DNA with water 50/50, and though it sounds expensive, I'd considered buying vodka to put in the mister. (No vodka in this mister, I mean the spray mister.)

 

[Jamie Straw]

Jamie, you do not say what your are going to use it for. A cocktail while turning?, to speed up drying of green wood?, as a solvent for shellac or other finish?

Instead of boiling Madrone and the fruitwoods, I'm trying soaking them in DNA, but the darned stuff's expensive. So far so good in results, limited though they are. Have heard many turners mention the technique, especially people who turn lots of bowls. Am also going to try it on the maple I have that tends to develop mold after turning, even in the summer. Here's an article: http://woodshopmike.com/denatured-alcohol-drying/

 

[Jamie Straw]

This is timely for me, as I was just researching the differences lastnight. A large percentage of my customers want 100% foodsafe, and I have to wonder about using DNA to raise grain. I know most of the residue must evaporate.

I've hear talk of mixing DNA with water 50/50, and though it sounds expensive, I'd considered buying vodka to put in the mister. (No vodka in this mister, I mean the spray mister.)

For what purpose do you mist, Zach?

 

[Bill Boehme]

For what purpose do you mist, Zach?

I'm not Zach, but I mist to raise the grain on figured maple. This helps it absorb dye more readily. I take the piece outdoors to do this because the next step is use a lighter to burn off the alcohol. Definitely don't do this in your shop.

It is also good for when you plan to use a water based finish.

 

[Emiliano Achaval]

Very interesting thread... Have you noticed the price on DNA? You have cheaper things to drink on the alcohol aisle at your grocery store, lol

 

[robo hippy]

I tried the DNA soak on my once turned madrone bowls. It did nothing at all, other than the pieces seemed to be harder to sand out. I have no idea what it will do to twice turned bowls. The problem with madrone is that when it warps, it almost always exceeds the 10% rule. I did leave a couple of pieces in a LDD (liquid dish washing detergent/water mix) for over a year, and when I took them out, they still warped a lot, and some cracked. No easy way to work madrone. I always figured the boiling was too much work, and the warped ones sell better for me anyway. "Oh! They are so Organic!!!

robo hippy

 

[Zach LaPerriere]

For what purpose do you mist, Zach?

Hi Jamie,

Like Bill, I spray to raise the grain. I don't raise the grain in all species, but the softer wood here in SE Alaska benefits from raising the grain, especially for bowls that might go into use where regularly rinses, like salad bowls.

I use a thrift store hair dryer (the somewhat worn out dryers are better because they aren't as hot) to dry the surface before continuing to sand, but I figure that alcohol might speed that up..though as Bill mentioned, maybe I wouldn't use the hair dryer to evaporate higher concentrations of alcohol.

 

[Dennis J Gooding]

Instead of boiling Madrone and the fruitwoods, I'm trying soaking them in DNA, but the darned stuff's expensive. So far so good in results, limited though they are. Have heard many turners mention the technique, especially people who turn lots of bowls. Am also going to try it on the maple I have that tends to develop mold after turning, even in the summer. Here's an article: http://woodshopmike.com/denatured-alcohol-drying/

Jamie, as far as I know DNA soaking does not reduce cracking of madrone. The usual purpose, for which I use it from time to time is reduce drying time of green-turned items. I sometimes use it for drying madrone pieces that I have boiled to reduce cracking. The DNA is expensive, but usually can be re-used several times until it become too diluted by the water that it draws out of the wood.

 

[Zach LaPerriere]

I forgot to mention: I also wet the surface of difficult wet grain before final finish cuts. It's not so important for these mistings to dry quickly, since I generally sand the outside of the bowl first. I have no idea if alcohol would swell the grain as well as water for this purpose, but it's worth a try.

 

[John Torchick]

Bill, I was told by my father that his father used to pour out a small a mount of vodka or schnapps and light it. The less residue it left, the higher quality.
I use lots of DNA as a solvent. Never used it for soaking wood, though.

 

[Bill Boehme]

Bill, I was told by my father that his father used to pour out a small a mount of vodka or schnapps and light it. The less residue it left, the higher quality.
I use lots of DNA as a solvent. Never used it for soaking wood, though.

I think you will be dollars ahead by continuing your current use of vodka, schnapps, and DNA rather than being an enabler to your wood becoming an alcoholic.

 

[Mike Brazeau]

In Canada due to outdated laws which have never been updated, denatured ethanol has not been available in hardware or big box stores, but available to professionals through wholesale suppliers of finishes. The issue gets discussed here often with those purists that want to mix up their own shellac finish. Lately alcohol fired fireplaces have become popular and the fuel which is readily available to consumers is principally ethanol with minor amounts of denaturants. Not sure how they are sidestepping the law or maybe no one in authority has caught on to it.

As an aside, construction of a small drying kiln makes the whole issue of alcohol soaking a waste of time. I routinely have bowls ready for second turning in a month and natural edge bowls in a couple of weeks.

 

[John Torchick]

That was my grandfather's test method. I would think that using vodka or schnapps on wood could result in a wobbly end table.
Mike has a good idea,based on personal experience.

My father and I had a talk about smoking, drinking, and chasing women. He said I could smoke and drink when I got too old to chase women. It seems that I'm getting close!

 

[Paul Gilbert]

Here in the USA the feds regulate how DNA can be blended for specific applications. These formulations are listed in the Code of Federal Regulations. Look up 27CFR part 21 for uses and denaturants if you are really interested.


There is a formula for using absolute (100%) ethanol and 5% (as I recall) methanol. This is hard to find, but it is super good for making shellac from flakes.

 

[Bill Boehme]

Here in the USA the feds regulate how DNA can be blended for specific applications. These formulations are listed in the Code of Federal Regulations. Look up 27CFR part 21 for uses and denaturants if you are really interested.


There is a formula for using absolute (100%) ethanol and 5% (as I recall) methanol. This is hard to find, but it is super good for making shellac from flakes.

Maybe 95% ethanol?

Generally, alcohol that you buy will have 5% - 30% water and it's not easy to find anhydrous alcohol because of alcohol's strong affinity to moisture which it readily absorbs from the air. I used to be able to get 99% isopropyl alcohol at the drugstore, but haven't seen it in a number of years. The hardware store stuff whatever the blend typically has 10% - 15% water. Not that it matters because once you pour it into a container to mix with dye or shellac or whatever, it's going to sop up moisture from the air until it's saturated.

 

[Gerald Lawrence]

Bill Absolute alcohol is at least 99.5% Ethanol
https://www.spectrumchemical.com/OA_HTML/Dehydrated_Alcohol.jsp?minisite=10020&respid=22372
I have not seen any since I got out of school and as I said we used grain alcohol in Pharmacy. I think Absolute can also be referred to as technical grade and would be used more for experiments.

 

[Paul Gilbert]

I tried to get a permit to use tax free 100% ethanol in the lab where I worked. Never could get that through. The Fed tax is $27 per gallon and then the State was almost as much. They didn't care that it was not for my 5 PM (very dry) martini,

In college the alcohol on the shelf was a very prised commodity until the Prof. noticed that it was disappearing faster than it should if used strictly for lab work. He added some phenolphthalein (the active ingredient in the old Xlax) and cured some constipated Chem. students.

 

[Raul McCai]

hardware-store DNA might compare to the distillery stuff?

All the French polishers I know ( and I know quite a few) all swear that the commercial stuff has so much benzine and other crap in it that it is almost unusable. They get 190 proof grain alcohol and pay the liquor tax. I've never hand polished so I can't say. Long ago I had bottle of 100% reagent grade ethanol and it was nasty stuff. Took one little taste and tossed it.

 

[Paul Gilbert]

Rather than pay the tax I would try to find a supplier for formula 1 or formula 3A (methanol) or formula 3C (IPA). Your problem with this will probably be getting it in less than 55 gallon drums. However $5-600 for 55 gallons doesn't sound so bad when put up against booze quality alcohol at $80 - 90 per gallon.

 

[Frank F]

Bill is right on. Denatured I think started during prohibition so alcohol could be used as a solvent w/o worry about someone drinking it , but they did drink it and some died. Ethyl alcohol is taxed and also called grain alcohol. When I was in school there was one teacher who was listed as an agent and kept inventories of the grain alcohol for tax purposed and ATF since schools are tax exempt. Jamie what you are getting is grain alcohol and is usually 95% best I remember from when we used it in Pharmacy.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Denatured_alcohol
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ethanol

I always though the grain alcohol was poisonous and was caused blindness during prohibition. Base on your post I assume that was wrong, or is there more to the story?

 

[Frank F]

There is a difference. The liquor type alcohol is mostly water where the ethyl alcohol content is designated by "proof spirit" where 100 proof spirit equals 50% ethyl alcohol by volume in the United States. In the United Kingdom, proof spirits is given by weight. Since alcohol is lighter than water, 50 proof alcohol in the UK would be more than 50% in the US. The exact number is left as an exercise to the student ... that would be you.

Years ago, hardware store denatured alcohol was about 85% ethyl alcohol (ethanol), about 5% methyl alcohol (methanol) to make it poisonous to consume, a bit of acetone, and the rest was water. Now, the numbers have been flipped to about 85% methanol, 5 to 10% ethanol, and the rest is water. The reason is that the price has gone way up for ethanol because of the demand as an additive to gasoline. However, you can now buy Green Eco-Friendly denatured alcohol in hardware stores which is basically the same as the old mostly ethanol DNA from the days before the term Eco-friendly existed. Just goes to show you that we had to go to unfriendly DNA before we could make friendly DNA. I like the smell of the Eco-friendly DNA more than the noxious smelling methanol stuff. And, no I don't snort it.

So, when Jimmy Clewes talks about using what they call "meth" across the pond for raising grain before dying wood, it's basically the same thing as our unfriendly DNA.

I will now start using Eco-Friendly DNA more often if not exclusively. From my hazmat days I remember that methanol is nasty. That's why we always used glove. Less methanol is always better.

 

[John Torchick]

If I recall, you can make your own up to ten gallons without having to pay the federal tax. Make your own- use as a solvent and mix a drink with the same thing.
Sign in antique shop- I cook with wine. Sometimes, I even put it in my food.

 

[Bill Boehme]

If I recall, you can make your own up to ten gallons without having to pay the federal tax. Make your own- use as a solvent and mix a drink with the same thing.
Sign in antique shop- I cook with wine. Sometimes, I even put it in my food.

I'm not positive, but that may apply only to wine making which yields about 12% alcohol depending on the sugar content of the grapes or whatever fruit you wanted to ferment. Making your own distilled white lightning on the other hand is a little risky because it can have a dangerous level of methanol.

When I was in the Army, a buddy and I decided that we were going to become vintners. So we got some grapes, yeast, and a large plastic garbage can as our primary fermenter ... the garbage can was new, BTW ... this was a first class operation. Anyway, within four months we has vintage wine so we threw a big party and shared it with our new-found friends who all proclaimed it to be among the finest wines ever produced.

 

[Mike Johnson]

Missouri allows a 100 gallons of spirits per year for personal use, but federal laws are still in conflict.
There are other purposes for making spirits and many stills are in production for these small scale needs.
The last decade has seen a marked increase in spirits production around the world for personal use.
On a small scale you can easily use lab glassware to make small amounts of spirits.
There are several companies that produce various sized stainless steel and copper stills for small scale
production purposes. There are some newer strains of yeast that can produce higher levels of alcohol
in the fermentation process stage. You need to decide what the spirits will be used for and then select
the proper yeast that will provide the quality of spirits desired.

 

[Zach LaPerriere]

Just to report back on raising the grain with alcohol for both sanding and to swell the grain prior to final finish cuts... I finally made it to the liquor store, and after explaining to the salesperson that I'm not a drunk, I inquired about the cheapest alcohol.

There's plenty of lousy vodka in plastic bottles at 40% alcohol, but I decided to go for 75% ethyl alcohol, branded Everclear. I tried it full strength and diluted down to both 50% alcohol and 30% alcohol.

To test out raising the grain, I pulled out some very old, tight red alder that had been drying for a year. I'd guess it was around 15% MC. Based upon my experiment, I would say there's no need to rush out to the liquor store.

In my experimenting with the alcohol, first I'd say alcohol doesn't raise the grain as well as water. Second, alcohol is horrible for swelling the fibers just before finish cuts. My finish cuts looked much worse than no alcohol. It makes sense: the alcohol just dries the water straight out of the wood. And that was in my 55°F high humidity shop, so warmer and drier would only evaporate faster.

Finally, misting alcohol onto the bowl puts an alcohol stench into the air similar to a drunk's breath. So unless you want your finish cuts to look more like rough cuts, I can't recommend alcohol for swelling the wood or raising the grain in lieu of water.

Maybe next I'll do an experiment on raising the grain with Evian vs. Perrier vs. distilled vs. tap water...

 

[Bill Boehme]

.... My finish cuts looked much worse than no alcohol...

Sounds like the makings of a C&W song ... maybe the moral of the story is to lay off the booze while turning.

To "clear the air" about the alcohol misting that I do when dyeing figured maple, it is done after all of the turning has been completed and the surface has been sanded to 400 grit. A very light mist of the non-consumable type of alcohol is applied to ever so lightly dampen the surface, but not enough to get it wet. This will create a very light fuzz that can't be seen, but it can be felt. Do not sand this off until after the first layer of dye has been applied. Misting is only an aid in dyeing and not to produce a smoother surface ... that's the job of sanding. This very light application of alcohol won't pucker the surface and isn't intended to do anything other than be a part of the dyeing process.

 

[Zach LaPerriere]

Sounds like the makings of a C&W song ... maybe the moral of the story is to lay off the booze while turning.

Funny! The bottle of everclear is no longer in the shop...now what in the heck does a guy do with a bottle of 75% alcohol? I know you can make lemons into lemonade, but...

I think we'll have to make a tincture of one variety or another.

 

[Jamie Straw]

Rather than pay the tax I would try to find a supplier for formula 1 or formula 3A (methanol) or formula 3C (IPA). Your problem with this will probably be getting it in less than 55 gallon drums. However $5-600 for 55 gallons doesn't sound so bad when put up against booze quality alcohol at $80 - 90 per gallon.

Does this have anything to do with drag racing? I know someone who's divesting himself of his dragster. Has a bunch of fuel his wife's worried about sitting in the garage.

 

[RichColvin]

Here are a few examples: isopropanol (isopropyl rubbing alcohol), isobutanol (butyl alcohol), glycerine (glycerol), sorbitol (a sugar alcohol that is slow to metabolize), and antifreeze (ethylene glycol). Basically, I believe that an alcohol would be any molecule where an OH {hydroxyl) radical is attached to a carbon atom in an organic molecule. I'm sure that @Gerald Lawrence will straighten me out if I don't correctly remember my high school organic chemistry.

Bill is right about the organic chemistry. But, DO NOT DRINK THESE. Ethanol is the alcohol in stuff you drink. The term "blind drunk" came from drinking methanol. The others will probably just kill you dead.