Gloat on Jet 1221, and Question about boiling

[Jamie Straw]

I'm officially impressed with the Jet 1221. Maxed out the swing today with an 11.5" piece of soaking wet Madrone -- a test to see if I could, indeed, sell the 1236 that takes up twice as much room. Drum roll.........the answer is "Yes!" That little tiger did great. My question is: does one hour of boiling per inch thickness suffice for such a cranky wood? I actually boiled it for 2.25 hours because I wasn't sure, and it's now cooling in the pot of water. Dimensions are 1" thick, 10" diameter, 4+" tall.

It won't be cool before I go to bed, so I was going to leave it in the pot overnight, and paint the end grain with Anchorseal tomorrow morning. Thoughts? (can you tell, I really don't want it to crack)

 

[odie]

What exactly is it you are attempting to accomplish with boiling, Jamie?

I see you are using the "one tenth the diameter" rule for seasoning roughed bowls. This rule is not a hard fast rule at all. If you suspect your wood is more susceptible to cracking than usual, you can increase the thickness of the walls. This sometimes helps, but also means the seasoning time will be increased.

Glad you are happy about your new lathe........

-----odie-----

 

[hockenbery]

Hi Jamie,

Suggest you call Dale Larson.
See private message i.e. Conversation.
Dale turns lots of madrone and boils it to stabilize the wood.

He left me a roughed out Bowl I need to finish

The jet 1221vs is a sweet machine......
I've done a couple hollow form demos with mine.

I only have two issues with mine
1 it only weighs a 150 pounds when I'm trying to rough an unbalanced blank
2 it weights a 150 pounds when I'm trying to lug it to a demo.

 

[Hy Tran]

I've been thinking of getting a second lathe (my Robust lives 150 miles from me), and the Jet 1221VS is on my radar screen.

The 150 lbs is a bit of an issue, but it sounds like a good midi lathe for hanging out in the garage that's 150 feet from me (taking the long way around) as opposed to 150 miles.

Hy

 

[John Torchick]

Boiling wood? New to me. Jamie, you could add some veggies and cook dinner at the same time while stabilizing the wood.

 

[Jamie Straw]

The jet 1221vs is a sweet machine......
I've done a couple hollow form demos with mine.

I only have two issues with mine
1 it only weighs a 150 pounds when I'm trying to rough an unbalanced blank
2 it weights a 150 pounds when I'm trying to lug it to a demo.

Yeah, I empathize! When I take it to a demo or workshop, Nick will have to help me get it in the car. Thankfully, there are always people on the other end to get it out! I have it on a very sturdy table with a shelf below (will take a picture later), upon which I put a bag of stove pellets. Can provide more weight with other material. Plan to anchor it to the table just to be sure it doesn't slide off, and give myself a couple of seconds of lead-time if it starts to dance, so I can get to the off switch. I love that the low end at the middle belt setting is so low. Was able to start that blank at 195 rpm, sufficiently above the bottom end, so no bogging-down problem. Definitely not as fast as a Powermatic, but way better than the 1236 (low speed=500, and no incremental steps between speed settings -- Reeves drive).

LOW 60-900
MIDDLE 110-1800
HIGH 220-3600
(come to think about it, I think I started at the low belt setting)

 

[Jamie Straw]

What exactly is it you are attempting to accomplish with boiling, Jamie?

I see you are using the "one tenth the diameter" rule for seasoning roughed bowls. This rule is not a hard fast rule at all. If you suspect your wood is more susceptible to cracking than usual, you can increase the thickness of the walls. This sometimes helps, but also means the seasoning time will be increased.

Glad you are happy about your new lathe........

-----odie-----

Boiling significantly reduces warping and cracking. Majority of turners who turn wet madrone here boil it. Unless they're turning super-thing and letting it warp for the artistic effect. Not sure sealing with Anchorseal is really necessary after boiling though.

 

[Jamie Straw]

I've been thinking of getting a second lathe (my Robust lives 150 miles from me), and the Jet 1221VS is on my radar screen.

The 150 lbs is a bit of an issue, but it sounds like a good midi lathe for hanging out in the garage that's 150 feet from me (taking the long way around) as opposed to 150 miles.

Hy

I'm not sure it actually weighs 150 -- somewhere I saw 135#. Add the tailstock and banjo, yeah -- 150#. Here's the stand, without and with bag o' pellets. They are just handy, something heavier would be used when needed. BTW, I can't take credit for the stand -- one of my mentors built it, it's the 3rd or 4th one he's made.

 

[Dennis J Gooding]

Boiling significantly reduces warping and cracking. Majority of turners who turn wet madrone here boil it. Unless they're turning super-thing and letting it warp for the artistic effect. Not sure sealing with Anchorseal is really necessary after boiling though.[/QUO

Boiling significantly reduces warping and cracking. Majority of turners who turn wet madrone here boil it. Unless they're turning super-thing and letting it warp for the artistic effect. Not sure sealing with Anchorseal is really necessary after boiling though.

Jamie, I would suggest that you not wrap the boiled bowl in a paper bag to dry. My experience is that boiled madrone will mold if wrapped up. Strange, because have had no problem with wrapping unboiled wet madrone.

 

[robo hippy]

The boiling has some thing to do with breaking down the cell walls so the j'bound' water has an easier time escaping. You are correct to let it come back to ambient temperature in the water rather than taking it out when boiling hot. What I don't like about it is that it kind of muddles the colors together. I prefer the warped bowls. For them, it is best to get madrone that has the spring sap running, which around here is late February. Late summer or fall harvested madrone is more prone to cracking than the early spring stuff, no idea why other than 'it is madrone'. You also have to turn to 1/4 inch or less for wall thickness, I turned a 22 inch diameter madrone bowl once, just because I could. It finished moving at 25 by 19 inches. Only non typical thing about that one was that the rim stayed relatively flat. Dale is the expert on boiling madrone. On a side note, it has a higher water content than just about any other wood out there. Fresh cut madrone sinks like a rock. If you thin turn, the wood gets very 3 dimensional as in lots of ripples. I do sand them out on the inside, but leave them on the outside. Wonderful texture.

Oh, make sure to round over the rims! I do this on all my green turned bowls, but especially on madrone. I do use the plastic stretch film on the outsides of the bowls and over the rim. No idea really on the anchor seal...

robo hippy

 

[Owen Lowe]

Boiling wood? New to me. Jamie, you could add some veggies and cook dinner at the same time while stabilizing the wood.

I boil all of the fruitwood I turn — plum, cherry, and apple — in addition to madrone. Makes a huge difference to my success rate. Boiling times are generally 1-2 hours of low intensity but constant boil. Odie commented that he feels it muddies the colors, but I don’t see that. I feel once you second turn and get rid of the boiled surface, the coloration returns.

 

[odie]

I boil all of the fruitwood I turn — plum, cherry, and apple — in addition to madrone. Makes a huge difference to my success rate. Boiling times are generally 1-2 hours of low intensity but constant boil. Odie commented that he feels it muddies the colors, but I don’t see that. I feel once you second turn and get rid of the boiled surface, the coloration returns.

Actually, it was robo who said that........

I'm just a spectator in this thread, because I've never boiled any wood......interesting concept, though.

I haven't turned very much madrone, but I have turned some.......with my limited experience, I haven't had a problem while using my regular methods......

-----odie-----

 

[John Tisdale]

Steven Russell did a white paper on boiling - it is well worth the time to read - www.woodturningvideosplus.com

I boil everything but mesquite. On my large hollow-forms, I try to get the thickness around 5/8" which would be thick for most bowl guys.
I boil for over 1-hour and then let cool in the water.
From there it goes into a closed cardboard box with a computer fan (glued on a length of 2" PVC) EXITING the air - I once reversed and blew the air into the vessel - created a 1" crack across the bottom.
When the Lignomat says 20%MC, I remove from the box and dry to 6%MC - the room has a dehumidifier running 24/7.

Another good reference is Eugene Wengert's PRINCIPLES AND PRACTICES OF DRYING LUMBER - it is a white paper you can download at no charge - it is also on Lignomat's website. Gene heads up the Brooks Forest Products Center at Virginia Polytechnic. While the subject matter is drying lumber, the principles apply to woodturning. The key datapoint for me is: Moisture of full saturation to 20% is the most delicate time - go slow. At less than 20%, you can be more aggressive.

 

[Jamie Straw]

Jamie, I would suggest that you not wrap the boiled bowl in a paper bag to dry. My experience is that boiled madrone will mold if wrapped up. Strange, because have had no problem with wrapping unboiled wet madrone.

Everything molds here!

 

[Jamie Straw]

Oh, make sure to round over the rims! I do this on all my green turned bowls, but especially on madrone.

How round is round? I've been softening the edges (inside, outside) on maple, walnut, black locust, cherry, apple, Italian plum. Have only done the one green madrone (which was boiled), and I softened that. If I get so doggone good that I can turn to 1/4" thickness, should that rim be round like a bead?

 

[Jamie Straw]

Steven Russell did a white paper on boiling - it is well worth the time to read - www.woodturningvideosplus.com

Ran into that during my first stab at woodturning back ~2009, got the boiler, drum and madrone, but everything folded shortly after that. Still have the burner and drum!

From there it goes into a closed cardboard box with a computer fan (glued on a length of 2" PVC) EXITING the air - I once reversed and blew the air into the vessel - created a 1" crack across the bottom.

Fancy! Might try that for real special projects.

When the Lignomat says 20%MC, I remove from the box and dry to 6%MC - the room has a dehumidifier running 24/7.

Not sure how high my Delmhorst goes, probably 20% or 22%? This would be a bad geographic area to dry something to 6% -- even our house doesn't get that low. Probably 10% to 12% would work.

Thanks for the tip on the white paper, and on the magical 20% mark. Will definitely keep that in mind as I move bowls up the shelves as they dry.

 

[Andy McCrory]

I have been pleased with my 1221. It helped a lot after I purchased the legs to give it the additional weight and stability to not dance with the rhythm of on unbalanced piece.

 

[robo hippy]

The round over on the rims does two things. One, that edge is a small razor saw and will slice you easily, been there, did that once. The second thing is that 'easing the edge' removes a very thin square edge of the wood that is far more likely to dry unevenly and then crack. It might be part of 'keeping an even wall thickness'... So, what do you do when the wall stops? For a 1/4 inch wall, I do maybe a 1/16 or so radius round over. That sounds really tiny, but maybe a bit more, I never measure. I guess a half round profile would be 1/8 inch radius, might be more than necessary, and it doesn't always fit into the bowl design very well.

As for muddled colors, I attended a Dale Larson demo at the Willamette Valley Woodturner's club, and they had a drawing for the bowl he turned from boiled madrone. I won the bowl, which I donated back to the club for their Christmas auction. Big color difference from what I turn. There is a lot of color difference from tree to tree, and I do soak mine in LDD (1/2 or less hand dish washing detergent and 1/2 plus of water) for at least 24 hours. This does bring out the red in some otherwise plain pieces. Only thing other than that it does, is that it makes the pieces much easier to sand out. With a fresh batch of soap (I use lemon because I can't find clear or tan colored), when I soak a new batch of madrone bowls, even if the wood is light colored, the soap has a lovely red/purple tint to it.

robo hippy

 

[John Torchick]

Jamie, forgot where you live.
Heard this a long time ago- What do they call three consecutive days of sunshine in Seattle? Summer!